More fake service dog nonsense

[Expat Cruise]

The problem is that there is no such thing as "correct paperwork." There is no true, legitimate, central "registry" for service animals, but there are many websites from which one can get a fake certificate.

 

I agree I can get paperwork for a Doctor that says anything I want it to say. It is not something I would do or recommend. But under the current system, and unless the federal laws are change the "correct paperwork" is whatever meets the requirements.

[carl0825]

Do you realize that a lot of people have allergies to pet dander? That's why they should be put of the ship,how can you compare that with drunk people. Maybe I should make my 229 lb St Bernard a service dog and sit him right next to me in the dining room and your table could be next to mine. I need to tell you , he does have manners but passed gas and burps a lot and he isn't shy about it and doesn't say excuse me. Pet dander can cause a lot of problems for some people and why would you want to risk that just because you don't want to leave precious home?. Now if it's a real service dog for the blind, or epileptic or such , then it's needed. If you're going on a cruise you don't need a companion dog, there are more than enough people on board. Comparing to drunk people is not s very smart thing to say, think about the real issues and yes throw them off the ship if it's not a real service dog

 

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[carl0825]

Expat how about people that don't understand medical issues be thrown off the ship. Would hate to be stranded with you

 

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[graphicguy]

This is sounding more and more like an RCCL problem. I like sailing RCCL. But, was on the MCL Gem last week.

 

No dogs...service, emotional support, or otherwise. No allergy flare up on my end. It was heaven.

 

This policy will cost RCCL business because it’s just a matter of time that an alleged emotional support animal causes some untoward incident with a passenger.

 

i think the airlines may be helping in this matter also by severely restricting animal travel. That doesn’t account for those who drive to the pier. But, it will certainly affect those who fly to the pier.

[cruziJenn]

Sorry for not reading all 12 pages but was just reading that senator Richard Burr from NC is trying to push a law that seriously regulates 'emotional support animals' on airlines. Hope this gets somewhere because yes people can and will and are getting absolutely crazy about this kind of thing and if airlines can be allowed to legally restrict animals then it would give cruise lines a leg to stand on as well. But even better, hope that any new regs would be expanded to include rail, buses, cruise ships sailing from US ports....

[cruziJenn]

The senior senator from North Carolina (my state), Richard Burr, filed a bill on 4/24 (the following is from his official web page):

 

Today, Senator Richard Burr introduced legislation to align the definition of a “service animal” under the Air Carriers Access Act (ACAA) with the definition under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), establish a criminal penalty for making misrepresentations about a service animal, and require federal agencies to establish a standard of service animal behavior training for animals who will be working on an aircraft.

 

Ooops, I should have at least read the last 2 or 3 pages before I posted :rolleyes::)

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/gop-senator-wants-to-rein-in-emotional-support-animals-on-airplanes

[Expat Cruise]

Expat how about people that don't understand medical issues be thrown off the ship. Would hate to be stranded with you

 

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I do not think anyone should be put off a ship for these issues read the post again, I was just highlighting how narrow and closed mind the people that are posting throw them off are.

 

As I said the law is bad and should be corrected. But until then if the guest meets the required on paper (as poorly done as they are) that should be the end of it. Is it right for the people who have medical issues? Absolutely not but the current laws in place that the cruise ships are using say these dogs are allowed.

 

On the medical side do you believe it would be fair to ban all nuts from all cruise ships because a passenger has a peanut allergy? Or to ban all alcoholic products on a ship because a percent of the passengers have medical problems with alcohol ?

 

I'm sorry you cannot make a ship prefect for everyone on it but you can follow the laws in place now or change them.

[chengkp75]

I do not think anyone should be put off a ship for these issues read the post again, I was just highlighting how narrow and closed mind the people that are posting throw them off are.

 

As I said the law is bad and should be corrected. But until then if the guest meets the required on paper (as poorly done as they are) that should be the end of it. Is it right for the people who have medical issues? Absolutely not but the current laws in place that the cruise ships are using say these dogs are allowed.

 

On the medical side do you believe it would be fair to ban all nuts from all cruise ships because a passenger has a peanut allergy? Or to ban all alcoholic products on a ship because a percent of the passengers have medical problems with alcohol ?

 

I'm sorry you cannot make a ship prefect for everyone on it but you can follow the laws in place now or change them.

 

The flaw in your logic is twofold. First, the cruise lines are not following the existing law, which precludes emotional support animals from ships, by not asking the allowable questions, what service does the dog provide, and following the letter of the law where it clearly states that the dog's mere presence does not constitute a service animal. And the cruise lines are not following the law in requiring certain behavior from the service animal. Secondly, as I have stated here previously, the law, as defined by the SCOTUS, allows for foreign flag cruise ships to have internal policies and procedures that do not have to meet the ADA requirements. So, the cruise lines could well do more to crack down on these fakes and ESA's onboard, and certainly define the required behavior of the animal. The ticket contract defines a passenger code of conduct, and the line retains the right to disembark anyone for violations of this code, which includes drunkenness and behavior that the Captain, in his sole discretion, adversely affects the safety or well being of the passenger, other passengers, crew, or the ship.

[ryano]

The flaw in your logic is twofold. First, the cruise lines are not following the existing law, which precludes emotional support animals from ships, by not asking the allowable questions, what service does the dog provide, and following the letter of the law where it clearly states that the dog's mere presence does not constitute a service animal. And the cruise lines are not following the law in requiring certain behavior from the service animal.

 

Exactly! If people want to blame anyone or get upset with anyone, its just as much Royal's, Carnival's or any other cruise lines fault as it is these selfish people that are disguising their pets as service dogs. It is very apparent that the cruise lines either do not care that people are bringing their pets onboard as "emotional service animals or they are afraid to enforce ADA laws that are already in place in fear of offending someone.

 

With that said, in 8 cruises, Ive never seen a dog onboard a cruise ship. Not even a legit service dog

[chengkp75]

Exactly! If people want to blame anyone or get upset with anyone, its just as much Royal's, Carnival's or any other cruise lines fault as it is these selfish people that are disguising their pets as service dogs. It is very apparent that the cruise lines either do not care that people are bringing their pets onboard as "emotional service animals or they are afraid to enforce ADA laws that are already in place in fear of offending someone.

 

With that said, in 8 cruises, Ive never seen a dog onboard a cruise ship. Not even a legit service dog

 

It's not so much that they don't want to offend anyone, its that given American's proclivity for lawsuits, even a suit thrown out on merits costs them money to defend, and so allowing the dogs onboard is more cost effective. Until there is a suit by someone injured by one of these animals, I don't see CLIA or the cruise lines moving to restricting them.

[DShock]

I don't see them enforcing this either, name one thing they actually enforce! We spent two weeks on Oasis last August and dogs were a common sight. Their "poop" station is down on the running track, a wood framed box filled with litter. It does smell and I feel for the crew that has to clean it. Several guest allowed their dogs to pee on anything down on that deck, as if it were ok. And as I rounded the aft corner on my run one morning a dog was pooping not in the box but on the side of the track. The owner just looked at me as I went by. On my next lap the owner and dog were gone but the poop was left behind. This support animal thing has been taken advantage of big time. We have a family member with Epilespy and has a great service dog. The dog can actually sense a seizure coming and warns everyone. That is what a real service dog is. But those that bring their "emotional needs" service animal aboard is just unreal. What's next a support pig, hamster, cat, peacock? If we see this proliferate like it is on airlines we will choose other cruise lines that do not allow animals or at least strictly enforce what a service dog is. Unless you really need a service animal, please leave buffy at home!

[graphicguy]

Saw the dogs on Harmony and Anthem (the last two RCCL cruises I’ve sailed).

 

I think I was on the Harmony Cruise where someone said they saw the older couple parading their dog around, carrying it. I saw what I believe was the same couple at a Meet and Mingle with the dog in a baby carriage.

 

Thought it strange at first seeing this obviously older couple pushing a stroller, but figured it was their grand baby. Until, my eyes swelled and I started a sneezing fit. Looked at what I thought was going to be a baby, and saw it was their dog. That explained my allergies flaring up.

 

Saw another lady on the Anthem carrying her little dog all dressed up, offering to let people pet it. Same deal, thought it was a baby until the allergies flared up and I got close enough to see it was a dog.

 

Experienced both with my own eyes (and sinuses).

[CruisingNole]

Terrible people that bring fake service dogs should be put off the ship in foreign countries, it's the only way they will learn

 

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Here's a hypothetical - What about terrible people that are able to walk (but choose not to) and don't REALLY need to ride around on a scooter, but they do so anyways? Shall they be thrown off the ship as well? One may argue those that abuse the scooter privilege are far more of a pain that someone with a little dog.

[carl0825]

Yes, as my mother always said " don't play around in a wheelchair, you will end up in one " . If you're looking that you can't walk you should be paralyzed and yes thrown off the ship. Harsh I know but If you can walk get off your a** and walk.

 

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[Merion_Mom]

I agree fake service animals should not be on ships but if the people have the correct paperwork really not much we as guest can do.

 

But I do find the fact that you want to throw people off the ship to be strange. How would you react to a post that change fake service dogs to drunk passengers? If anyone posted

 

"Terrible people that get drunk on the ship should be put off the ship in foreign countries, it's the only way they will learn"

 

Does that seem like something a cruise line should be able to do? Or change "people that get drunk" to "out of control children & the parents". If the cruise lines starting throwing off passengers for these types of things, the ships would be empty. It really takes a lot to be put off a cruise ship as it should.

 

 

The ships can and do throw people off the ship for serious violations of the Guest Conduct Policy.

 

Did you think that they didn't?

[carl0825]

I've seen drunks left at port or even put in their holding cell until port for being unruly . Done people aren't educated before they write.

 

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[ryano]

Yes, as my mother always said " don't play around in a wheelchair, you will end up in one " . If you're looking that you can't walk you should be paralyzed and yes thrown off the ship. Harsh I know but If you can walk get off your a** and walk.

 

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Harsh but truth. Im sure someone will take offense to what I say and flame me but so be it. A lot of scooter use I see is just from laziness just like those who park in handicap parking that really dont need it. We take for granted, or at least I did anyway, something as simple as walking until we cant walk at all anymore (Im paraplegic since 93). I would give ANYTHING to have my legs back. You would never see me park in a handicap accessible parking place or riding on an elevator ever again.

[Expat Cruise]

The flaw in your logic is twofold. First, the cruise lines are not following the existing law, which precludes emotional support animals from ships, by not asking the allowable questions, what service does the dog provide, and following the letter of the law where it clearly states that the dog's mere presence does not constitute a service animal. And the cruise lines are not following the law in requiring certain behavior from the service animal. Secondly, as I have stated here previously, the law, as defined by the SCOTUS, allows for foreign flag cruise ships to have internal policies and procedures that do not have to meet the ADA requirements. So, the cruise lines could well do more to crack down on these fakes and ESA's onboard, and certainly define the required behavior of the animal. The ticket contract defines a passenger code of conduct, and the line retains the right to disembark anyone for violations of this code, which includes drunkenness and behavior that the Captain, in his sole discretion, adversely affects the safety or well being of the passenger, other passengers, crew, or the ship.

 

I do not see it as a flaw. I understand not service dogs under the law. But I believe the cruise lines do not want to be in violation of the ADA so like many Airlines they have allowed a wider range than required under the law.

 

If they followed the law exactly and one person made a error and excluded one true service dog, the lawsuit and criminal case could cost them millions. So allow more than is requred and protect the corportion, at a great cost to many guest on the ship.

 

Again I need to be very clear here, if I was making the rules and the laws, I would only allow true service animals. I would make it so that true service animals are allowed. But if anyone is found trying to break, fake paperwork, or non service animals the cost would be very large. Including jail time for the first offense.

 

But until the laws are made very clear, many companes will keep covering their backsides and allow much more than is required.

[suzyluvs2cruise]

The flaw in your logic is twofold. First, the cruise lines are not following the existing law, which precludes emotional support animals from ships, by not asking the allowable questions, what service does the dog provide, and following the letter of the law where it clearly states that the dog's mere presence does not constitute a service animal. And the cruise lines are not following the law in requiring certain behavior from the service animal. Secondly, as I have stated here previously, the law, as defined by the SCOTUS, allows for foreign flag cruise ships to have internal policies and procedures that do not have to meet the ADA requirements. So, the cruise lines could well do more to crack down on these fakes and ESA's onboard, and certainly define the required behavior of the animal. The ticket contract defines a passenger code of conduct, and the line retains the right to disembark anyone for violations of this code, which includes drunkenness and behavior that the Captain, in his sole discretion, adversely affects the safety or well being of the passenger, other passengers, crew, or the ship.

 

It's not so much that they don't want to offend anyone, its that given American's proclivity for lawsuits, even a suit thrown out on merits costs them money to defend, and so allowing the dogs onboard is more cost effective. Until there is a suit by someone injured by one of these animals, I don't see CLIA or the cruise lines moving to restricting them.

 

And, unfortunately, this will continue. RCI, and possibly other cruise lines, seem afraid to confront and ask the allowable questions. You're right.....it's only when a lawsuit for injury is filed that maybe.....and I emphasize MAYBE, something will be change.

[SherriZ366]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/collared-new-laws-crack-down-fake-service-dogs-n871541?cid=eml_nbn_20180505

New article about cracking down on fake service dogs. It looks like they may take some action against the websites issuing fake credentials. I think this is a good place to start as it doesn't put the Cruise Lines or airlines in jeopardy of being sued.

[ObstructedView2]

The only service/guide dogs that should be permitted onboard a cruise ship, an airplane, a train, a bus, in a restaurant, a supermarket & so on; should only be service/guide dogs for the blind.. That's it!!

 

 

 

:rolleyes:

[suzyluvs2cruise]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/collared-new-laws-crack-down-fake-service-dogs-n871541?cid=eml_nbn_20180505

New article about cracking down on fake service dogs. It looks like they may take some action against the websites issuing fake credentials. I think this is a good place to start as it doesn't put the Cruise Lines or airlines in jeopardy of being sued.

 

It's a good start but until cruise lines and airlines crack down, unfortunately, it's not going to mean anything.

[Expat Cruise]

The only service/guide dogs that should be permitted onboard a cruise ship, an airplane, a train, a bus, in a restaurant, a supermarket & so on; should only be service/guide dogs for the blind.. That's it!!

 

But the problem is the ADA says: "a service animal is defined as a dog that has been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for an individual with a disability. The task(s) performed by the dog must be directly related to the person's disability."

So if the person has a disability and the dog is train to work or perform tasks they are under this act. I agree it has many different ways it can be read. And if a cruise line or airline makes a honest error it is very costly so they do not want to confront these people out of fear.

Much more information can be found here. If anyone takes a few minutes to read it will be clear this is not a simple issue to correct. https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

[GUT2407]

The only service/guide dogs that should be permitted onboard a cruise ship, an airplane, a train, a bus, in a restaurant, a supermarket & so on; should only be service/guide dogs for the blind.. That's it!!

 

 

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

So the deaf, the epileptic, the diabetic etc don’t count

[GUT2407]

Here's a hypothetical - What about terrible people that are able to walk (but choose not to) and don't REALLY need to ride around on a scooter, but they do so anyways? Shall they be thrown off the ship as well? One may argue those that abuse the scooter privilege are far more of a pain that someone with a little dog.

And who judges if they need a scooter or not, oh people like you I guess