Why Doesn't Princess/CCL Buy a River Cruise Line?

[Roz]

19 minutes ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

The last thing I want to see Carnival Corp do is buy or create another cruise line. They’re too big as is. The more competition there is, the better off we are as consumers. 

 

I get what you're saying, but ocean cruising and river cruising are really 2 different markets.

 

Roz

[Hlitner]

Perhaps one day the suits at CCL will purchase or start a river cruise line.  But river cruises lines are a completely different Industry than Ocean cruises with many unique issues.   CCL has ventured into some interesting areas over the years with mixed success.  Perhaps there are some here who will remember when Carnival operated their own airline :).  CCL has also been investing in ports and we can see that trend increasing as CCL looks for places to take their many ships.  We also expect to see CCL trying to make more inroads into the largely untapped Asian market.  

 

We disagree with Cruzaholic41 about CCL's size.  In the cruise world bigger is usually better given that the cost of new ships can now exceed a $Billion.  It takes very deep pockets and access to big capital to compete in the cruise world which is why it is dominated by only a handful of Corporations and one very wealthy Italian family (MSC).

 

Hank

[soonernstlouis]

19 hours ago, Coral said:

For those who haven't experienced river cruising - I strongly encourage it. I love having 150 people on a ship.

For those who want a taste of Mississippi River cruising without committing significant $$, St.

Louis has day & evening/dinner cruises that (normally) run several times a day from March-November (weather/water level permitting).

 

One of the unique things about these cruises are that select ones have National Park Rangers provide narration.  For more information, see:

 

https://www.gatewayarch.com/experience/riverboat-cruises/

 

and

 

https://traveltips.usatoday.com/gateway-riverboat-cruises-st-louis-mo-63679.html

 

Words of advice:

Always check in advance the schedule of these cruises since issues such as river flooding (NO current river traffic is allowed now & in the near future).

Never park directly along the riverfront in StL (Lenor K Sullivan Blvd).  Car break-ins are very common.  There are attended parking garages open any time the cruises sail.  The Metrolink ((St Louis’ light rail) also has stops that are in walking distance to the Arch/riverfront & connect to other attractions (Galleria Mall, Busch Stadium, the new aquarium opening at Union Station and the airport).

 

[Coral]

14 minutes ago, soonernstlouis said:

For those who want a taste of Mississippi River cruising without committing significant $$, St.

Louis has day & evening/dinner cruises that (normally) run several times a day from March-November (weather/water level permitting).

 

One of the unique things about these cruises are that select ones have National Park Rangers provide narration.  For more information, see:

Good information - thank you!

[denmarks]

A foreign registered cruise line can not go between US ports without stopping in a foreign country.

[Heidi13]

16 hours ago, crawford said:

Acquisition would seem to be the best option, for the right price.

Can only hope Carnival don't acquire a river company and cheapen that product similar to some of the excellent ocean cruise lines they purchased, but are now budget mass market cruise lines. P&O/Princess went into decline the day they were purchased by Carnival in 2003.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Heidi13

[AL3XCruise]

23 hours ago, Coral said:

I think they did a great job. Viking did the opposite - they were in River boats and started Ocean ships.

Viking's move makes me think that Ocean Cruising has higher margins and more potential, otherwise they would have invested in further growing their river fleet instead of securing funds for ocean going vessels.  In order for a line like CCL to want to go into river cruising, they'd need to either expect a higher ROI on investment in the river cruise (either through a more lucrative product or a saturated ocean market) or find some kind of synergy (every MBA's favorite word) where other corporate lines will see a benefit.  Short of that, pouring money into giant ships with massive on-board spending is probably the preferred option.

 

18 hours ago, crawford said:

Acquisition would seem to be the best option, for the right price.

I agree, if CCL (or RCCL or NCL for that matter) decided to go the river route, that would be easier.

 

3 hours ago, denmarks said:

A foreign registered cruise line can not go between US ports without stopping in a foreign country.

Many countries have cabotage laws, and they can vary widely.  Local registrations, creative ownership arrangements, and other tools are used to get around these in some cases, but it would still be an extra hurdle. 

[Capt_BJ]

19 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

Might as well by an airline and a few all inclusive resorts while they’re at it.

 

actually they did both in the 80's.  They owned one of the Nassau casino hotels and ran their own airlines to get folks  .....  

 

WiKi: Carnival Air Lines was a charter and scheduled airline division of Carnival Cruise Lines started in 1988 after Carnival Cruise Lines purchased Pacific Interstate Airlines. It was headquartered in Dania Beach, Florida.

 

As you see they didn't stay in those businesses long .... but I remember seeing the 'Carnival' airplanes at the Nassau and Miami airports when they were in 'regular operation'

Edited June 9, 2019 by Capt_BJ

[Coral]

37 minutes ago, AL3XCruise said:

Viking's move makes me think that Ocean Cruising has higher margins and more potential, otherwise they would have invested in further growing their river fleet instead of securing funds for ocean going vessels. 

They are still growing their river cruise line. New ships arrived this year. The rivers in Europe are pretty cramped. Viking Ocean's ships are a great size and are going places where the mega-ships other lines are building can not go.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Coral

[Coral]

2 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Can only hope Carnival don't acquire a river company and cheapen that product similar to some of the excellent ocean cruise lines they purchased, but are now budget mass market cruise lines. P&O/Princess went into decline the day they were purchased by Carnival in 2003.

Such a sad day when that happened.

[Aquahound]

4 hours ago, denmarks said:

A foreign registered cruise line can not go between US ports without stopping in a foreign country.

 

Who said it had to be foreign flagged?

[denmarks]

14 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

Who said it had to be foreign flagged?

 

I guess that a company with foreign flagged ocean ships could register river boats in the US.

[Essiesmom]

15 minutes ago, denmarks said:

 

I guess that a company with foreign flagged ocean ships could register river boats in the US.

 

Certainly, but they would have to have been built in the US.  EM

[milolii]

I agree with the over saturation and inconsistent  water levels, 

Also  there have been a few accidents this year,  

 

[DirtyDawg]

On 6/8/2019 at 3:42 PM, crawford said:

It would seem to make sense to me that buying a river cruise line would complement the offerings of CCL, whether or not it would be rebranded or not.

 

Not sure how successful Viking has been delving into ocean cruises.

 

Thoughts? 

They probably looked at opportunities, as any firm would do, and the net present value of buying or starting their own line was negative. i.e. that couldn't make enough cash from the venture vs. what it would cost.

 

Or, Micky really doesn't like river cruising.

Edited June 10, 2019 by DirtyDawg

[AL3XCruise]

6 hours ago, Coral said:

They are still growing their river cruise line. New ships arrived this year. The rivers in Europe are pretty cramped. Viking Ocean's ships are a great size and are going places where the mega-ships other lines are building can not go.

 

That makes sense.  Rivers are still their core business and they already have the expertise and infrastructure in place so that scaling isn't extremely expensive and likely makes sense even if the profit potential isn't as great.  That doesn't apply to CCL.

 

Viking is being smart by supporting the existing product while working to diversify.

 

Also, keep in mind Ocean Cruising isn't a single segment.  Viking is not going head to head with Royal or Carnival, but they are competing with brands in the parent organization's portfolios.  Azamara, for instance.

 

Semi-related, I wonder if MSC would consider a River Cruise subsidiary.  While they are certainly a profit making company, being privately held gives them the ability to consider factors beyond maximizing ROI.

[Texas Tillie]

It is my understanding that on the European rivers (Rhine, Danube, etc.) all the crew must carry EU passports. That means the crew cost to the owner is substantially higher than the cost for an ocean ship where many crew members are Filipino, etc.

[Cruise Junky]

They don't have to buy a line but it would be nice if they partnered with one for some B2B opportunites like Viking has done pairing their River and Ocean cruises into one offering. 

[ducklite]

The first thing that would have to happen is for a cruise line to be for sale, or for them to pour billions into building new boats.

 

They would be going head to head with Viking who already has a very firm hold in the mass market river cruise category.

Carnival's business model is to cram as many people on as possible.  This is the opposite of most river cruises, and the passenger count is very much relevant, as some ports/cities won't allow boats with over "X" number of passengers to visit them.

[ducklite]

1 hour ago, Cruise Junky said:

They don't have to buy a line but it would be nice if they partnered with one for some B2B opportunites like Viking has done pairing their River and Ocean cruises into one offering. 

 

River cruises--even the least expensive of them--are typically 3-4 times the daily rate of a Carnival or Princess cruise.   It's not a good fit.

[Cruise Junky]

13 minutes ago, ducklite said:

 

River cruises--even the least expensive of them--are typically 3-4 times the daily rate of a Carnival or Princess cruise.   It's not a good fit.

Carnival yes, but not Princess or HAL or Seabourn, Cunard.  There are other brands that would fit other than Carnival.