Why do you hate HAL so much?

[SetAnOpenCourse]

17 hours ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

 

Mutual friendship when one is cleaning the other’s toilet, huh?   Hmm. Ya, go ahead and keep believing that. 

I’m not sure where you’re coming from, and I give you the benefit of the doubt, but my first reaction is that you may need to look at work, and what makes it honorable, in a different way.  Friendship is a possibility when both sides are down-to-earth people.  Would it be rare to find that in both people?  Perhaps, but it would be due to a certain immaturity of one or both, not because of the work.

For me, though, I don’t expect to bond with people that quickly - while realizing that people with personalities different than mine may do so.

[awhcruiser]

Can we return to the original topic please?

[taxmantoo]

43 minutes ago, awhcruiser said:

Can we return to the original topic please?

[HappyInVan]

7 hours ago, awhcruiser said:

Can we return to the original topic please?

 

Seems to me that it's all related. The OP is describing the complainers as 'haters'. But, the complainers are really the loyalists who are unhappy with  the direction that HAL is heading.

 

KirkNC was kind enough to quote Donald in post 223 Page 9. If true, it means that HAL is in an active campaign to displace the old timers. Who's the replacements?

 

I have a theory that HAL is trying to upsell CCL passengers, not poach from Princess (Carnival Corp sister company) or Celebrity. It would certainly explain the different expectations of the newcomers.

 

IMHO, HAL will not be able to maintain current standards of serenity and civility with a different lot of passengers. Just look at the cruelty exhibited in this thread. The insults and other disrespect.

 

The 'cheap' passengers are blamed for HAL not earning enough revenues. What a falsehood, when it's the company who sets the price. HAL is unable to charge a higher fare because of company and industry overcapacity. Why blame the passengers when it is a company business decision?

 

Let's not forget the trolls with the defamation of the former owners and managers of the original HAL. CCL bought HAL for 'pennies'. CCL 'subsidized' early HAL passengers! These lies need to be challenged. Over time, lies repeated often enough becomes the truth!

 

My advise to the old timers and 4/5 star cruisers is to make your decisions based on knowledge that management  is not your friend. Don't pay HAL a dime more than necessary.

[iancal]

The former owners and management team  managed HAL  down to the point where their P&L and their Balance Sheet were so weak that they could net secure financing for new builds.  That is not defamation. It is the harsh reality of business.

 

We judge cruise lines and cruise ships by the here and now.  We are buying today’s product.  Not some foggy memory of what we might have bought and experienced in the past.  HAL is no doubt moving in the direction that they feel the market is headed.  History is littered with firms that failed to change with market direction.

 

We would book some HAL ships in a heartbeat.  There are some HAL ships we would not consider.  Does this make us, or others like us so called HAL haters?  I don’t think  so.  Simply a matter of matching our preferences to specific ships instead of believing that all ships in the fleet deliver a homogeneous experience as we perceive it.

[SetAnOpenCourse]

If history is littered with that, then it’s also littered with businesses that failed under management who steered them in a different direction, or followed in the direction of other firms.

 

Some here presume HAL’s future success based on not reading any bad news this morning.

 

Businesses have ups and downs.  Sometimes due to how they are managed and sometimes due to external forces or economic conditions.

[HappyInVan]

3 hours ago, iancal said:

The former owners and management team  managed HAL  down to the point where their P&L and their Balance Sheet were so weak that they could net secure financing for new builds.  That is not defamation. It is the harsh reality of business.

 

 

Can that be true?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland_America_Line#Former_fleet_(after_1989)

 

Facts. HAL acquired 3 ships in the 1980s. In 1988 just before Carnival's purchase, HAL acquired the MS Westerdam. Doesn't sound like a struggling company unable to secure financing.

 

I've blocked npcl for his 'unreliable' assertions. But, he did find a news report about Carnival's 1989 financial report. It added the revenues from HAL into Carnival's reported revenues. Also reported that profits were down slightly after paying for interest expenses (finance of HAL purchase and the new resort/casino). 

 

That means that HAL's profits were enough to pay for the interest expenses (in 1989 prime rate was 11%). That sounds pretty profitable.

 

https://www.hsh.com/indices/prime80s.html

 

Bear in mind that Micky Arison had to be pay $625m (in 1989) in cash. Not for Carnival stock, but in cash! Does not sound like a distress sale.

 

Please, we've already proven that these representatives of the 'new' passengers are not management-trained. Anyone have business experience? Help us out here.

 

BTW, I don't know what the owners did with the cash. But, Treasury 30-bonds were yielding 9% in early 1989. Assuming you stashed the cash in a tax-free haven. What would your account be worth this year on maturity of the bond?

[AmazedByCruising]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

BTW, I don't know what the owners did with the cash.

 

They set up an investment company, HAL investments, which invests in a wide range of companies. They are now the second richest family in The Netherlands.

[cruisemom42]

Given the limited amount of publicly available information on the HAL purchase by Carnival Corp., it is doubtful anyone can find out the "true" story, unless someone publishes a tell-all. 

 

At the time I'm sure both parties were legally constrained in what they could and could not say*, and Carnival, having spent quite a lot of money to gain more berths and entree to what at the time was considered a higher level of cruising is not likely going to turn around and say that their new company was nearly bankrupt, if such were the case...

 

Based on the totality of what HAS been made public, it seems clear to me that Carnival desperately wanted to expand, particularly because Princess had just purchased Sitmar. (And also Carnival had just failed in a bid to acquired Royal Caribbean). It may be that Carnival, in addition to looking for a higher-niche line was also looking at the profitability of operations in Alaska, which both Princess and HAL were doing well with at that time.

 

It also seems possible, based on some reports, that HAL at the time had come to a conclusion that the future was in larger new-build ships. They had ordered a pair of significantly larger ships to be built, but it seems they had some difficulties in financing them. 

 

We can't know their thinking. Perhaps HAL ownership did not have the wallet (or the stomach) for the era of progressively larger ships and the need to cater to a mass market. (Remember Royal Viking, which had vowed not to lower its standards, was also starting to experience the financial issues that led to its demise a few years later....)

 

In the end, what does it matter? If some HAL loyalists want to think HAL has never floundered financially or that it is still a luxury operation that's a notch above its mass market competitors, makes no difference to me. I imagine HAL management knows well enough who they compete against. What's not as clear, perhaps, is what they need to do to differentiate themselves and attract NEW loyalists.

 

 

 

* I do have some knowledge of these practices, having worked in corporate PR for a company that has gone through two major mergers...

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by cruisemom42

[iancal]

Exactly.  The past is past.  It is the present and future that matter to us.

 

We do no long for the old days of cruising any more than we long for those ‘they don’t build them like the used to’ death trap automobiles.

[Hlitner]

30 minutes ago, iancal said:

Exactly.  The past is past.  It is the present and future that matter to us.

 

We do no long for the old days of cruising any more than we long for those ‘they don’t build them like the used to’ death trap automobiles.

I guess I am an antique along with some of the old cruise lines :).   I do long for the old days of cruising.  DW and I were just reminiscing about what is was like when we started cruising in the mid-70s.   Ships were generally smaller, there were no balconies in passenger cabins, there were no water slides, bumper cars, etc.  Waiters used silver serving platters (even on RCCL) to bring around all the side dishes, personally dished out salad dressings, etc. On Sitmar (later bought by Princess) fresh pastas were made in the dining room by the Maitre'd s and served to everyone.  Menus had a much larger variety with 4-5 courses (depending on the cruise line).  Most lines had expansive midnight buffets every night (a real waste...but fun).  There was more live entertainment onboard and all the Production Shows were accompanied by a real band (I think on HAL it was 7 pieces).   HAL also had classical quartets (they used the Rosario Strings for a few years).   And it was a time when folks understood etiquette.  There were no backward baseball caps in the MDR, folks really dressed-up on formal nights, 2 top tables were very rare as nearly everyone shared large tables where dinner was a major social event.  And in those days the big demand was for late dining (usually at 8:30) with early sitting not well attended.  To put it simply, folks did not go to dinner at "tea time." And on most of the lines we cruised, the quality/quantity of the food in the MDR was as good or better then today's extra cost alternative restaurants.  In fact, most lines did not even have alternative restaurants as there was no need.:).

 

As an aside, we recently took our first Seabourn cruise and were delighted to see that they did not even open their restaurants for dinner until 7pm (open sitting until 9) and their shows were at 9:45!  My goodness, most of these folks actually stayed awake past 11.  

 

Hank

[RocketMan275]

34 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I guess I am an antique along with some of the old cruise lines :).   I do long for the old days of cruising.  DW and I were just reminiscing about what is was like when we started cruising in the mid-70s.   Ships were generally smaller, there were no balconies in passenger cabins, there were no water slides, bumper cars, etc.  Waiters used silver serving platters (even on RCCL) to bring around all the side dishes, personally dished out salad dressings, etc. On Sitmar (later bought by Princess) fresh pastas were made in the dining room by the Maitre'd s and served to everyone.  Menus had a much larger variety with 4-5 courses (depending on the cruise line).  Most lines had expansive midnight buffets every night (a real waste...but fun).  There was more live entertainment onboard and all the Production Shows were accompanied by a real band (I think on HAL it was 7 pieces).   HAL also had classical quartets (they used the Rosario Strings for a few years).   And it was a time when folks understood etiquette.  There were no backward baseball caps in the MDR, folks really dressed-up on formal nights, 2 top tables were very rare as nearly everyone shared large tables where dinner was a major social event.  And in those days the big demand was for late dining (usually at 8:30) with early sitting not well attended.  To put it simply, folks did not go to dinner at "tea time." And on most of the lines we cruised, the quality/quantity of the food in the MDR was as good or better then today's extra cost alternative restaurants.  In fact, most lines did not even have alternative restaurants as there was no need.:).

 

As an aside, we recently took our first Seabourn cruise and were delighted to see that they did not even open their restaurants for dinner until 7pm (open sitting until 9) and their shows were at 9:45!  My goodness, most of these folks actually stayed awake past 11.  

 

Hank

Other than the quality of the food, I'd rather have today's cruise line.  Sharing large tables, dressing for dinner, etc., just aren't what we would enjoy.

[iancal]

Same here.  But for us this is no longer the reality for mass market cruise lines such as HAL.  So we see little point in complaining about it.  

 

Plus, we very much prefer the casual atmosphere to formal.  If we wanted the latter and a cruise more along the lines of the the past  we would select Cunard or some other more formal cruise line. Or Perhaps Seabourn.

Edited September 9, 2019 by iancal

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

Same here.  But for us this is no longer the reality for mass market cruise lines such as HAL.  So we see little point in complaining about it.  

 

Plus, we very much prefer the casual atmosphere to formal.  If we wanted the latter and a cruise more along the lines of the the past  we would select Cunard or some other more formal cruise line. Or Perhaps Seabourn.

Seabourn is not very formal.  On our 14 nights they did have two dressy nights where it was a little better then countryclub casual.  A majority of the med did have jackets although the norm was a sports jacket with open collar shirt.  On Seabourn we actually saw some men wearing baseball caps, but they were not backwards :).

 

Hank

[Wehwalt]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Seabourn is not very formal.  On our 14 nights they did have two dressy nights where it was a little better then countryclub casual.  A majority of the med did have jackets although the norm was a sports jacket with open collar shirt.  On Seabourn we actually saw some men wearing baseball caps, but they were not backwards :).

 

I haven't cruised them, but I looked at one of their cruises once. Am I correct that their dress code applies in all public areas? That is very different from HAL where formal night only really applies to the MDR.

[MISTER 67]

On 8/31/2019 at 8:19 PM, sevenseasnomad said:

We have been cruising since 1975 with Sitmar, Carnival, Celebrity, NCCL, and RCCL.  We discovered HAL in 2008 and never looked back.  We enjoy this line for its gracious, efficient service and ships' ambiance.  Yes, we've noticed the cutbacks/reductions (whatever you want to call them), but feel that HAL still delivers a good product for our $$.  I now cruise with my son who is 32 and also prefers HAL.  In fact, he flat out loves it, probably more than me.  

 

When I feel that HAL no longer meets my expectations or value for the money, I won't complain on these boards.  I'll book with another line; however, I don't see that happening any time soon.  Is every cruise perfect?  No.  But I tend to look for the positives and forget the negatives, which IMO are few and far between at present.  I often wonder about Cruise Critic members who post only negative reviews/responses.  Why cruise with a line that offers nothing but dissatisfaction?  With so many choices, it makes no sense to me.  

Sitmar was the best, I really miss them.

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, Wehwalt said:

I haven't cruised them, but I looked at one of their cruises once. Am I correct that their dress code applies in all public areas? That is very different from HAL where formal night only really applies to the MDR.

To be honest, I think most who cruise on Seabourn do not need a dress code to tell them what is proper and correct.   It is essentially a smart casual (in the evening) cruise line.  You will normally not find men in "wife beater" shirts and torn shorts roaming about in the evening.  To be honest, folks on Seabourn dress similar to what you see on HAL.  And it was nice to be on a line where nobody was wearing a 5 Star PIn…..or (heaven forbid) a medallion :).  We found our fellow passengers to be a delight (just like on HAL).  A surprise on Seabourn was that many passengers would dine at the Lido (it is a partial buffet) in the evening where they often had some kind of theme night.  The MDR (dinner from 7-9) was never crowded.  We were driven to try Seabourn because of all the cut-backs on HAL, Princess and Celebrity (our 3 most cruised lines).  While Seabourn is not a perfect solution there was much to like.  In the future we will be back on HAL and Princess (not sure about Celebrity) as well as Seabourn.  We would also like to try both Oceania and Viking but are having trouble finding the time or itinerary.  Our next year's cruising schedule is pretty filled with Princess, MSC (Yacht Club), and HAL.

 

Hank

[HappyInVan]

9 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

They set up an investment company, HAL investments, which invests in a wide range of companies. They are now the second richest family in The Netherlands.

 Thanks. I didn't know that. They must be pretty sharp to be richer than Micky.

 

"Rich families: this is how the Van der Vorms collected 9 billion euros"

 

https://tech2.org/netherlands/rich-families-this-is-how-the-van-der-vorms-collected-9-billion-euros/

 

Hope this answers their critics.

[Aquahound]

2 hours ago, Wehwalt said:

I haven't cruised them, but I looked at one of their cruises once. Am I correct that their dress code applies in all public areas? That is very different from HAL where formal night only really applies to the MDR.

 

I don't think that's accurate.  I just read their website and it says all fine dining restaurants.  

[HappyInVan]

On 9/5/2019 at 11:03 PM, KirkNC said:

I read this on the “entertainment “ thread, thought it might give some a greater understanding of HAL and why us “old timers” feel the way we do.

 

Posted by Donald

 

I worked on HAL ships for many years. After the current President arrived, we had endless meetings on how HAL - now completely Carnivalized - could slowly and gently get rid of the older regular crowd that spent so little money onboard, and at the same time appeal to a newer, younger, free-spending demographic. This had to be accomplished gently, so that the older crowd did not realize they were no longer desirable, and so would desert the cruise line slowly. At the same time, HAL would slowly introduce new concepts that would appeal to a younger crowd, who would gradually replace the defecting oldsters. All of this had to be done with a careful eye to protecting profits and reducing costs during the entire process.

 

Very sneaky, but thinking about all those meetings and looking at the current state of HAL, they appear to be quite successful in their scheme. It will take a bit longer to complete, but their bottom line appears to be holding steady while slowly convincing the old crowd to look and book elsewhere.

This year, for the first time in decades, the average age of a HAL cruiser has dropped.

 

Personally, I do not see anything positive in these developments.

Edited August 23 by Donald

 

Thanks. 

[RocketMan275]

On 9/6/2019 at 1:03 AM, KirkNC said:

I read this on the “entertainment “ thread, thought it might give some a greater understanding of HAL and why us “old timers” feel the way we do.

 

Posted by Donald

 

If it's posted on the internet, then it must be true, right?

[K&RCurt]

Our first 4 cruises were on HAL, and we had a great time on each one.  Since then we have done cruises on Celebrity and Carnival.  We currently have one cruise booked on Carnival and one on Celebrity. 

 

Some things we have learned are that the 3 lines we have sailed on are more alike than different.  HAL doesn't close up every venue at 9:00pm, Carnival isn't a ship full of obnoxious drunks and Celebrity isn't a bunch of snobs.  The food on all 3 is good, sometimes great, and each has their own strengths and weaknesses.

 

One thing is universal...Cruise Critic is full of people who frequent each Line's forum who complain about everything they do, and also full of people for whom their chosen line can do no wrong.  The truth is somewhere in between.

 

Every line has taken actions to reduce costs that has lessened the on-board experience.  Every line has added thing to appeal to different demographics to attempt to keep selling our cruises.  When things change it is not comfortable for those who love the way things are.  Keep in mind that the relative cost of a cruise vs income level of potential cruisers has stayed the same or even gotten less expensive over the years.  There is no way to sustain that and keep everything the same.

 

One thing I found recently when planning a cruise for the winter of 2021 was a lack of diversity in HAL itineraries in the Caribbean. I could only find 4 different 7 day itineraries all going to Islands we have been to multiple times.  We actually decided to pay more than HAL was charging to go on a unique itinerary leaving out of San Juan on Celebrity.  I had always considered HAL to have some of the best itineraries, but it seems like they expended very little effort in creating the 2021 Caribbean offerings.

[seachef318]

I worked on ships (not HAL) for a few years.  Yes, we received a list of onboarding guests as did the all of the hotel crew members, it mentioned dietary issues and if they had sailed before with us (but not when or what ship).  I honestly couldn’t remember people by name when they returned but often I could remember how they took their coffee or their cocktail of choice years later.  And my crew members, especially the bar tenders remembered even more guests than I! 

It is a strange skill you gain in hospitality.  As for talking about guests after they leave - no one has time for that! They are too busy getting the ship ready for the new guests!  Unless it was some crazy story of course.....

[HappyInVan]

On 9/9/2019 at 10:32 AM, cruisemom42 said:

We can't know their thinking. Perhaps HAL ownership did not have the wallet (or the stomach) for the era of progressively larger ships and the need to cater to a mass market. (Remember Royal Viking, which had vowed not to lower its standards, was also starting to experience the financial issues that led to its demise a few years later....)

 

 

 

The outgoing HAL owners obviously had no interest in their maritime heritage since they sold their cargo business in the 1970s and closed their liner services.

 

IMHO, they viewed HAL as just an investment in their portfolio. Find a good niche. Reap the profits. Backslapping all around. Sell out to someone offering a good/great price. More backslapping. Move on to the next opportunity. Now, they're richer than Micky

.

What about Micky? What's his business strategy?

 

Micky is a self-made man. His father is a businessman who started CCL. He was cautious, buying only three old ships (average 15 years old). Mickey becomes CEO and starts a huge expansion in the 1980, 1990s and 2000s.

 

He is very impatient. Does not just buy new ships. Tries to swallow existing companies. Anyway, he employed a high-leverage, high risk program and got away with it.

 

Why was Mickey so aggressive? Well, he is obviously a successful man, because his company is #1.

 

How was he able to finance his expansion? He took long term loans on the ships. To ensure that he could pay the P+I, he had to keep costs down. I think that many long time customers noticed this.

 

What do you do when you run out of cost cutting ideas? That's when you cut value to the customers. Most passengers notice this. That's when the marketing geniuses do their thing.

 

CCL becomes party central. Party all night long. But, it's a one way ticket when you go down this road. No way back.

 

What do you have to do when you run out of ways to cut the programs? You cut value more deeply by adding more passengers. In 'upgrades', add more cabins and add more  bunks to the cabins. After all, it only costs $10 in food for each passenger.

 

The marketing geniuses can now sell family-friendly cruises.

 

[HappyInVan]

To me, its a sign of stress when CCL is still running 30-year ships, and there are complaints that the ships need to be maintained.

 

RCL has launched four 225k GT Oasis ships since 2009. Up to today, CCL has not matched them!

 

RCL has seen a shrinkage of their market share in the 2000s but has remained solvent. As CCL falters, RCL counter-attacks with mega-ships and the latest and greatest technologies. RCL also has the Icon and Quantum ships. They're going up-market!

 

Obvious question! Why does CCL need to do so much cost/value cutting? Why not just raise prices?
 

Edited September 11, 2019 by HappyInVan