Why do you hate HAL so much?

[Ken the cruiser]

When it comes to complaining on CC, I believe a more adequate term is "venting" and CC offers a great outlet for that. We were once on an Oceania cruise where 12 days of the 14 day cruise were in Code Red lock down mode because over 10% of the ship's passengers (luckily not us) came down with the norovirus. On top of that, it was the 5th time between Nov 2015 and Mar 2016 that the ship had become infected.

 

Sure, we filled out the after-cruise questionnaire, but that somehow just didn't cut it when it came to easing our frustration level. However, subsequent "venting" on the CC Oceania thread (and others) somehow helped me relieve some of that built-up stress, especially after we got the "bummer" response from O HQ after we asked in writing if there was going to be any compensation coming for a less that mediocre cruise.

 

But in general, for me as I'm sure it is with others, when issues arise during a sailing on any cruise line that causes frustration levels to remain high after a cruise has ended, posting some negative thoughts on CC about an issue many times helps to ease those levels. As they say, misery loves company!

[npcl]

13 minutes ago, iancal said:

Why try to tell the cruise line how to run their business or structure their business processes???  

 

I believe that the folks at Carnival and at HAL know just a little more than the average joe above how to run a successful cruise line business.   Carnival Corp is anything but a failure.

 

Like anyone else I scratch my head at some of the things that HAL does or does not do.  Or a few other cruise lines as well from time to time.    But when I do not understand something it us usually because I do not have all of the pertinent data.  I have no doubt that there is a purpose to what HAL management is doing.  I am not savvy enough about the cruise business to understand it but these people are not fools. 

 

They may not be right all the time but if their batting average was not good or the if the  subsidiary company was missing their financial targets they would be out in the blink of an eye after two or three quarters.

 

For those who think HAL should eliminate TA commissions just think back to the Renaissance fiasco and subsequent bankruptcy when they decided to pull the plug on TA commissions.  That did not work out so well for them.  I have no doubt that the brain trusts at Carnival Corp, RCI, NCL, and all the others lay awake at night trying to figure out how to do this. 

 

One big difference between air and cruise.  AIr is a business and a personal necessity for many.  People may not have wanted to make direct reservations but when it came down to making an airline reservation on line or paying a TA another $50.or $75 to do it for them....they took the DIY route.

Yes.  In addition for a lot of people booking a cruise is a lot more complex having to deal with room/route/ship selection as well as cruise line.  Far more complex then an airline ticket, as well as more expensive.  As such many more depend upon a TA.

[dockman]

How many of us predicted  ten years or so ago that people would be convinced to use self check in at airports or self check out at walmarts?

 

How many of us would have thought ten years ago that we would buy all sizes and types of products sight unseen via Amazon and have someone bring it to our doorstep a few days/hours later?

 

We shall see what happens with cruise line bookings but I for one am pretty sure the systems ten years from now will likely be a very different model from the currently employed systems.

[RocketMan275]

4 hours ago, dockman said:

 

I for one would prefer that the cruise lines would stop paying big box stores and OTAs 15+++ % commissions on bookings being transferred after they were already booked and deposited direct with HAL PC staff who have done the work. This practice means HAL pays staff to answer phones, questions etc etc which is what a travel agent is supposedly being paid via commissions to do....Ends up as a double expense for HAL.   Eliminate some of that expense and you can afford a lot of non revenue spaces such as prom deck and libraries.  Profits are not only determined by increased onboard revenues but also by decreased cost of sales like commissions.

I booked direct with the cruise line on my first and second cruise.  I don't call the cruise lines. I don't tie up their phone lines. I don't ask them any questions.  FWIW, I don't require my TA to do a lot of work either.  I call/email her with the cruise line, date, itinerary, cabin type and cabin number.  She books the cruise and sends me an invoice.  I sometimes contact her again if I see a price drop.  

 

I certainly prefer a discount from my TA more than I prefer a library.  I can't imagine getting on a ship and being forced to rely upon the book selections made by the cruise line.  I've already download 10 books for my kindle for my next cruise.

[npcl]

33 minutes ago, dockman said:

How many of us predicted  ten years or so ago that people would be convinced to use self check in at airports or self check out at walmarts?

 

How many of us would have thought ten years ago that we would buy all sizes and types of products sight unseen via Amazon and have someone bring it to our doorstep a few days/hours later?

 

We shall see what happens with cruise line bookings but I for one am pretty sure the systems ten years from now will likely be a very different model from the currently employed systems.

10 years is a long time in any business.  However in those business self check in converts to real dollars and the process is pretty simple.  It is also usually more convenient then the other options, but they do exist.

 

A bit different with cruises.  You already have self service options in cruising with both the cruise line web sites and third party web sites.  Those that use TA or cruise line customer service do so because they do not feel comfortable with self service or because they have question that self service can not handle. For a lot of people booking a cruise is fairly complex.  Self service checkout or airline checkin not so much. Not that even the stores with self service still have traditional checkout as well.

 

In 10 years we will probably have different booking options and systems. However, I am pretty certain that in 10 years we will not have more libraries on main stream cruise ships.

Edited September 2, 2019 by npcl

[caribill]

7 hours ago, npcl said:

 

In 10 years we will probably have different booking options and systems.

 

I would be happy if in the next ten years they would just fix all the current problems with the web site.

[HappyInVan]

16 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

No, the profit model on cruise lines is based on online expenditures, not fares. And it's also been suggested by industry insiders that "repeat mature cruisers" are less profitable than new cruisers to the line. They know to look for lower fares. They purchase fewer things onboard (spa services, photos, souvenirs in the shops, shorex through the ship). So why would the cruise line WANT to retain them? 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you have any statistics to back up that claim?

 

 

[HappyInVan]

16 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Does Carnival need another economy brand -- I can't profess to know that. But at the moment HAL is not doing anything so different from her close competitors Princess and Celebrity, which I wouldn't call 'economy' brands either.

 

 

 

Ohhh, so its a race to the bottom! Who's going to win?

 

You've identified a problem. That HAL is trying to keep fares low while hoping that family groups spend more on extras.

This works at supermarkets where impulse buying accounts for significant amount of sales. Does it work for a cruise?

 

IMHO, lower fares attract people less likely to pay for HAL excursions. Less likely to pay for extras like the coffee bar.

That's the advantage of higher income customers. That's fewer of them, but they're willing to pay more for more value.

 

[HappyInVan]

On 9/1/2019 at 2:20 PM, npcl said:

It is also not just HAL making the change but other competing lines as well.  How much Library space do you find on NCL, Celebrity and Princess these days?  It is not only an industry change but to a large degree a cultural one as well, right along with less formal dress at public and business events.

 

 

 

Smart managers look to differentiate their brands. Weak managers have to be followers. 

 

That's why we need a larger Explorer's lounge. The Crow's Nest is nice and I hang out there to bird watch. But, the library/lounge is more like a cosy coffee shop. Something for everyone.

 

You make it sound like we're on an economy cruise, or joined the navy. My way or no way!

 

BTW, I've seen people playing checkers, chess and board games at the small tables. We're enjoying ourselves.
 

 

 

 

 

 

[HappyInVan]

14 hours ago, npcl said:

You say that you question their decisions.  Yet they have built a tremendously successful business, built from brands that were failing at the time they acquired them.  HAL, if it had not been acquired, by CCL would probably not exist today.  It would be bankrupt and its ships sold just as happened to Regency in 1995. HAL would have actually failed first since it was purchased in 1989 by CCL.  CCL provided the capital infusion that allow HAL to build its current line of ships.

 

 

You've missed the point. The older cruisers are familiar with a clear brand identity. HAL had the mid-size market up to 60k GT (1990s). Carnival has the larger economy and family-oriented market.

 

This is the successful Carnival/HAL differentiation that we are familiar with. The smaller the ship, the higher the price for greater comfort, exclusivity and quality. Quid pro quo.

 

Today, HAL is building bigger ships, not because they are designed for family-oriented cruising. They surely are not competitors to the CCL and Disney ships. Rather, they are bigger ships in order to reduce cost. 

 

Reducing customer value and losing the better paying customers. Forcing HAL to squeeze more families into ships. Example (post #105) of where this is going is the Carnival Sunrise after refurbishment.

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2691782-my-thoughts-on-the-sunrise-and-carnival-after-my-8-day-cruise-from-ny/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-58249456

IMHO, beginning the downward spiral of the HAL brand.

 

And, Carnival Corp is committed to growth in order to protect their overall #1 market share.

 

Disney is an example of what Carnival Corp needs to emulate. Inventing a new category, Disney has been successful with large ships. With only 4 ships, Disney earned 40% of HAL's revenues.

 

Compare the difference between Disney and CCL (both family-oriented ships) in terms of revenue per passenger. Are we to believe that Carnival's management has the winning formula?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cruise_lines

Carnival's vision for the future is focused on more and bigger ships for HAL. Economy rather than quality.

 

My advice is to you is to look to CCL (or Disney) for economy family cruising. They already have 26 ships with a capacity of 60k passengers. 
 

[cruisemom42]

6 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Ohhh, so its a race to the bottom! Who's going to win?

 

You've identified a problem. That HAL is trying to keep fares low while hoping that family groups spend more on extras.

This works at supermarkets where impulse buying accounts for significant amount of sales. Does it work for a cruise?

 

IMHO, lower fares attract people less likely to pay for HAL excursions. Less likely to pay for extras like the coffee bar.

That's the advantage of higher income customers. That's fewer of them, but they're willing to pay more for more value.

 

 

Your HO would be wrong. It's been reported in numerous places (including a documentary on cruising from a few years ago) that cruise ships' fares basically only cover their costs. It is the online spending that represents the majority of their 25-28% profit. I don't need to babysit you; do your research.

 

Also it has been reported that online spend doesn't tend to differ much regardless of what was paid for the fare. There may be other differentiators, but the fare isn't one of them.

 

I would actually suggest that higher-income cruisers would be more likely to purchase private tours than the cattle-call shorex offered by the cruise line in many cases. But that's just a guess on my part based on what I've seen in 40 years of cruising and read here on CC. 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by cruisemom42

[npcl]

10 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Do you have any statistics to back up that claim?

 

 

Yes, look at the 10Q and 10Ks filed  y each company (RCL, CCL, NCLH) it shows how much revenue comes from fares and how much comes from online spend.  25-29% of total revenue comes from online spend, depending upon the company (which does not include gratuities which by US accounting standards is outside of the accounting system as long as it is fully distributed to the crew and therefore is not included in either the revenue or expense. But it MUST be fully distributed to the crew).  That percentage is considerably more than any cruise lines profit margin.  

 

It is also the reason why cruiselines don't like booking single cabins, even with the 100% solo penalty.   For 2 to a cabin the revenue is 2(X + .33X) = 2.66X   for a solo the revenue is 2X + .33X = =2.33X  where X is the fare.  So booking a solo means a loss of 1-2.33/2.66 = 12.4%.  That 12.4% is normally more than the entire profit margin for cruiselines.  In this period of low fuel costs, low interest rates and having had ability for raising prices the profit margin is a little bit better then that.  

[npcl]

10 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Smart managers look to differentiate their brands. Weak managers have to be followers. 

 

That's why we need a larger Explorer's lounge. The Crow's Nest is nice and I hang out there to bird watch. But, the library/lounge is more like a cosy coffee shop. Something for everyone.

 

You make it sound like we're on an economy cruise, or joined the navy. My way or no way!

 

BTW, I've seen people playing checkers, chess and board games at the small tables. We're enjoying ourselves.
 

The brand is still differentiated within the limits of the fare structure that HAL uses.  It cannot and will not survive trying to maintain competitive fares and not managing costs.

 

It is far from an economy cruise. but it is not a premium or luxury brand either.

 

But it is pretty much their way or the highway.  There is always Viking or Oceania but with significantly higher price points. 

[npcl]

10 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

You've missed the point. The older cruisers are familiar with a clear brand identity. HAL had the mid-size market up to 60k GT (1990s). Carnival has the larger economy and family-oriented market.

 

This is the successful Carnival/HAL differentiation that we are familiar with. The smaller the ship, the higher the price for greater comfort, exclusivity and quality. Quid pro quo.

 

Today, HAL is building bigger ships, not because they are designed for family-oriented cruising. They surely are not competitors to the CCL and Disney ships. Rather, they are bigger ships in order to reduce cost. 

 

Reducing customer value and losing the better paying customers. Forcing HAL to squeeze more families into ships. Example (post #105) of where this is going is the Carnival Sunrise after refurbishment.

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2691782-my-thoughts-on-the-sunrise-and-carnival-after-my-8-day-cruise-from-ny/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-58249456

IMHO, beginning the downward spiral of the HAL brand.

 

And, Carnival Corp is committed to growth in order to protect their overall #1 market share.

 

Disney is an example of what Carnival Corp needs to emulate. Inventing a new category, Disney has been successful with large ships. With only 4 ships, Disney earned 40% of HAL's revenues.

 

Compare the difference between Disney and CCL (both family-oriented ships) in terms of revenue per passenger. Are we to believe that Carnival's management has the winning formula?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cruise_lines

Carnival's vision for the future is focused on more and bigger ships for HAL. Economy rather than quality.

 

My advice is to you is to look to CCL (or Disney) for economy family cruising. They already have 26 ships with a capacity of 60k passengers. 
 

No I haven't missed the point.  Only pointing out that brands, to survive, need to change with the times.  Most of what you now consider the HAL brand has come about after the purchase of HAL by Carnival.  Since all of the ships were built or acquired after the 1989 purchase date.

 

Yes they are building larger ships because the cost structures do not work for building smaller ships.  I posted the average cost by ship sizes on a per passenger basis.  

 

Are you willing to pay Disney's fares?  Do you want to limit most cruises to 7 days or less like Disney does?  Talk about people screaming about changes.  Disney can charge what they do because of the fact that Disney cruises is a very small portion of Disney, the demand for their cruises exist because of the theme parks, movies and the rest of Disney brands.

 

HAL is not competing with Disney or CCL.  Who it is competing with is Celebrity and Celebrity is taking itself out of that niche with some of its recent brand changes.

 

It is a cruise line aimed at more traditional cruising style, with a music venue focus, with ships in the 2000 range. It maintains very good crew and service.    It is the same niche that Celebrity used to be in.

 

Now Celebrity has modified its brand to go with tiered levels of passenger with clear distinctions between suite and the rest.  Celebrity has also gone with business practices that are aimed at getting most passengers into various drink packages with individual purchase prices being higher then on HAL. You want to talk about how cruise lines brands have changed over the last 10 years look at Celebrity, RCCL, NCL.   THe changes in HAL have been fairly minor, but well positioned to pick up customers that used to go to Celebrity, but to really do so it needs to get rid of the HAL is for really old people view that exists in the industry and by a lot of TAs. That means lower the age demographic.

Edited September 3, 2019 by npcl

[sail7seas]

19 hours ago, iancal said:

Why try to tell the cruise line how to run their business or structure their business processes???  

 

I believe that the folks at Carnival and at HAL know just a little more than the average joe above how to run a successful cruise line business.   Carnival Corp is anything but a failure.

 

Like anyone else I scratch my head at some of the things that HAL does or does not do.  Or a few other cruise lines as well from time to time.    But when I do not understand something it us usually because I do not have all of the pertinent data.  I have no doubt that there is a purpose to what HAL management is doing.  I am not savvy enough about the cruise business to understand it but these people are not fools. 

 

They may not be right all the time but if their batting average was not good or the if the  subsidiary company was missing their financial targets they would be out in the blink of an eye after two or three quarters.

 

For those who think HAL should eliminate TA commissions just think back to the Renaissance fiasco and subsequent bankruptcy when they decided to pull the plug on TA commissions.  That did not work out so well for them.  I have no doubt that the brain trusts at Carnival Corp, RCI, NCL, and all the others lay awake at night trying to figure out how to do this. 

 

One big difference between air and cruise.  AIr is a business and a personal necessity for many.  People may not have wanted to make direct reservations but when it came down to making an airline reservation on line or paying a TA another $50.or $75 to do it for them....they took the DIY route.

 

 

I commend our HAL cc'ers.  SO many here are so qualified and knowledgeable ab out how to run a cruise line   (how many really could?)      I suspect doing so  is quite  unlike many other businesses even in the  travel/ hospitaliy category.     Very unlike some of the  sort of busineses  mentioned  here as examples for comparison.

[sail7seas]

16 minutes ago, npcl said:

No I haven't missed the point.  Only pointing out that brands, to survive, need to change with the times.  Most of what you now consider the HAL brand has come about after the purchase of HAL by Carnival.  Since all of the ships were built or acquired after the 1989 purchase date.

 

Yes they are building larger ships because the cost structures do not work for building smaller ships.  I posted the average cost by ship sizes on a per passenger basis.  

 

Are you willing to pay Disney's fares?  Do you want to limit most cruises to 7 days or less like Disney does?  Talk about people screaming about changes.  Disney can charge what they do because of the fact that Disney cruises is a very small portion of Disney, the demand for their cruises exist because of the theme parks, movies and the rest of Disney brands.  

 

 

(  SOME of us are paying Disney fares for our  HAL.    cabins     over again for year, after year, after year )

 

HAL is not competing with Disney or CCL.  Who it is competing with is Celebrity and Celebrity is taking itself out of that niche with some of its recent brand changes.

 

It is a cruise line aimed at more traditional cruising style, with a music venue focus, with ships in the 2000 range. It maintains very good crew and service.    It is the same niche that Celebrity used to be in.

 

Now Celebrity has modified its brand to go with tiered levels of passenger with clear distinctions between suite and the rest.  Celebrity has also gone with business practices that are aimed at getting most passengers into various drink packages with individual purchase prices being higher then on HAL. You want to talk about how cruise lines brands have changed over the last 10 years look at Celebrity, RCCL, NCL.   THe changes in HAL have been fairly minor, but well positioned to pick up customers that used to go to Celebrity, but to really do so it needs to get rid of the HAL is for really old people view that exists in the industry and by a lot of TAs.

  I don't know if I qualify as one of  the "really old people" you reference but, I respectfully disagree with most of  that   post. 

 

For you young'uns.......... IF, YOu are really LUCKY, YOU,  too, will one day be 'old people'.     There is only one alternative.     Not everyone is so lucky to grow old but remember those who are the 'old  people'   today   as you put it, were once  the young'uns.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by sail7seas

[npcl]

6 minutes ago, sail7seas said:

  I don't know if I qualify as one of  the "really old people" you reference but, I respectfully disagree with most of  that   post. 

 

For you young'uns.......... IF, YOu are really LUCKY, YOU,  too, will one day be 'old people'.     There is only one alternative.     Not everyone is so lucky to grow old but remember those who are the 'old  people'   today   as you put it, were once  the young'uns.

 

 

 

 

 

I am also.  I am not making a judgement about the various ages, only talking about brand identity, market niches.  

 

Unfortunately HAL for years has been identified as the mainstream cruise line with the oldest demographic. I am retired and I have lost count of the number of times I have been talking with people of other cruise lines (Celebrity, Princess, Viking, RCCL, NCL) and have been told that they would not consider HAL because that it was just for really old people.  The really funny thing is being told  by people in their 70's that they were not old enough for HAL.

 

So the point is that for HAL to maximize the appeal of its brand it needs to eliminate the perception.

 

The brand is changing, it has always been changing, and will always change for as long as it survives.  Otherwise HAL would still be the freight company  and the transatlantic passenger line that it started as. Or the brand it was when it first focused on vacation cruising in the 70's.  Or the real big change when it merged with Westours in the 80's. Maybe it should have stayed the 4 ship fleet it was in 1989 when Carnival purchased them.

 

Change is always occurring.  We has passenger can and should communicate our opinions to the company.  But in the end they will decide the direction of their brand and we as consumers can decide if we still wish to purchase their product or not.

 

Where as other like to focus on complaints about the changes, I am just pointing out that the changes do in fact make some sense and one can see what they are trying to accomplish, even if it might be different than what we as individuals might want.

[slidergirl]

21 hours ago, sail7seas said:

 

 

 

PLEASE give he Board and officers a little credit,   they have been succesful  and a leader in the  passenger ship/ cruise ship indudstry for a great many years, I do not think they need us to tell them how to attract  new customers.  They have done so for many decades.   As to Carnival orp. rescuing HAL. THAT  was so long ago  it is silly to make it sound as though it approaches  being a 'current event.  HAL will survive just fine IMO, if a few  things happen.  The world  stays out of a huge war, the world economy continues to grow an cruisers have disposable cash to  spend on cruises and they maintain their international crew with special emphasis on Dutch,  Indonesian   and fillipino.  The   crews are so important to the identity, fine service and friendly atmosphere   we enjoy on the blue hulled beauties.  I am first to say I dislike some of the changes and omissions made on gthe ships but the crews make HAL  all that matters most to many of us when cruising .

 

 

 

Yes, it was awhile ago.  But, if Carnival had not taken on HAL, those 5 star cruisers wouldn't be 5 star because they wouldn't have a cruise line or  they'd be whining about changes to whichever mass market line they switched to... I do give the Board credit.  They know they can't rely on the older crowd for continued support.  Fact of life: old people die.  What does HAL do if they keep trying to cater to those now in their 70s, 80s?  The next batch of "old people" are going to have different tastes and HAL has to adapt to what they like, not keep what the last batch liked.  They have to attract the next generation of mature cruisers and families to their ships.   

As for the world economy continuing to grow - I'm not sure where you are getting your info.  I don't know of a single economy that is growing.  For me, if I had received my usual tax refund, I could have taken a cruise this year.  But, instead of getting a refund, I had to pay $700 more.  That was with no change in income, status or anything.   Not what I would consider having my personal "economy" growing.  

 

I didn't say I didn't like any of the "changes/cutbacks" - I'm one who said I don't mind and I go with the flow.  

Edited September 3, 2019 by slidergirl

[sail7seas]

48 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

Yes, it was awhile ago.  But, if Carnival had not taken on HAL, those 5 star cruisers wouldn't be 5 star because they wouldn't have a cruise line or  they'd be whining about changes to whichever mass market line they switched to... I do give the Board credit.  They know they can't rely on the older crowd for continued support.  Fact of life: old people die.  What does HAL do if they keep trying to cater to those now in their 70s, 80s?  The next batch of "old people" are going to have different tastes and HAL has to adapt to what they like, not keep what the last batch liked.  They have to attract the next generation of mature cruisers and families to their ships.   

As for the world economy continuing to grow - I'm not sure where you are getting your info.  I don't know of a single economy that is growing.  For me, if I had received my usual tax refund, I could have taken a cruise this year.  But, instead of getting a refund, I had to pay $700 more.  That was with no change in income, status or anything.   Not what I would consider having my personal "economy" growing.  

 

I didn't say I didn't like any of the "changes/cutbacks" - I'm one who said I don't mind and I go with the flow.  

 

Each generation comes along and has different tastes,  Nothing new  or remarkable about that.  I cannot  begin to guess what the kids currently in 4th grade will want for amusement and entertainment  and  recreation  when they enter the job market.  HAL has succesfully coped with  such circumstances for generations and I have every  c onfidence they will  continue  to do so.

 

 

 

I t is not only the 'Old  people'  who die, some  sadly  die as young persons.  We can hope the world's medical researchers find cures for cancer and other life threatening diseases before that young crop of kids are graduating and looking for jobs  and may be  HAL  cruises?

 

 

 

 

[AncientWanderer]

I don't see any particular demographic being catered to.  To me, Carnival is making all of its various lines very homogenized, so that nobody is particularly attracted or repelled.  That way, they can just get their various ships out in all the waters of the world and fill them up with people -- any and all people.  This came to me when I read complaints about the cheese on the Seabourn thread.  With economies of scale, probably all lines are now getting the same cheese.  And the same meats, etc., etc.

 

If the basic product on all the various lines is "acceptable," people will pay to cruise.  At this point, HAL and Princess are just about interchangeable to me.  The only "outlier" I see is Carnival Cruise Line.  They do seem committed to attracting partiers.  Maybe because those partiers could scare off other guests, so put them all together?  Who knows?

 

In any case, we do all kinds of travel -- DH driving, organized bus tour groups, staying with friends and family.  I still like cruises the best and have never been on a HAL cruise that I didn't enjoy.

 

 

[sail7seas]

21 minutes ago, AncientWanderer said:

I don't see any particular demographic being catered to.  To me, Carnival is making all of its various lines very homogenized, so that nobody is particularly attracted or repelled.  That way, they can just get their various ships out in all the waters of the world and fill them up with people -- any and all people.  This came to me when I read complaints about the cheese on the Seabourn thread.  With economies of scale, probably all lines are now getting the same cheese.  And the same meats, etc., etc.

 

If the basic product on all the various lines is "acceptable," people will pay to cruise.  At this point, HAL and Princess are just about interchangeable to me.  The only "outlier" I see is Carnival Cruise Line.  They do seem committed to attracting partiers.  Maybe because those partiers could scare off other guests, so put them all together?  Who knows?

 

In any case, we do all kinds of travel -- DH driving, organized bus tour groups, staying with friends and family.  I still like cruises the best and have never been on a HAL cruise that I didn't enjoy.

 

 

 

 

Few if any things last forever

 

 

 

 

[TheCruisingAccountant]

On 8/31/2019 at 5:55 AM, LoveHAL said:

Well, the title that got your attention!

 

I started cruising when I was 17 years old, realizing how fortunate I was to have this wonderful experience.  In 2002 I discovered Holland America on a 7-day Alaska cruise.  Since then, HAL has been my exclusive cruise company (35-cruises, five star mariner). Why? A quality product for a reasonable price. I have always started every cruise with a positive attitude, and realized that not everything can be perfect. Regardless what we do in life, things can go wrong. Gosh darn, they don't want to give me TWO main courses for dinner. The prices on drinks have gone up. They no longer provide this or that. The ships are showing wear, or I hate the larger ships. 

 

Soon after my first HAL cruise I discovered Cruise Critic. It was a place to share information and, meet people prior to the cruise , and on occasion, save some money on private excursions. Roll Calls have been a wonderful resource for me. BUT, it seems that over the past few years, Cruise Critic has turned into a place where many people have become so negative about seemingly everything HAL management does. In my opinion, the enjoyment and benefit of this Forum has declined significantly. Sure, not everything is perfect, but there are a number of Cruise Critic members that seemingly NEVER have anything positive to say. You know who you/they are..... "Orlando is trying to ruin the company"; "HAL is nickel and diming us"; "They are taking away....."; How can I sneak on alcohol or will HAL carry on my cases of waters/soda? At the end of the cruise, why doesn't HAL pay me back in cash the on-board credit that they didn't buy, but that HAL as given to them?  , and so many other things. The irony is that they seem to continue to cruise with HAL (how else would they know what is going on now?). They continue to look for the cheapest fare (nothing wrong there), but still expect all the things they got in the "good old days".  

 

My question is, if it is so bad, why complain so much? Why not just spend your travel dollars elsewhere? Or, is it just fun to complain? 

A website of this format will generally form a small community with a considerable amount of self selection bias and self sorting (and confirmation bias, see below).

It is just human nature.    You can win a Nobel Prize in Economics studying it.

That being said, it is also well within human capacity to understand this and overcome it to some degree.

I don't think, for the most part, that anyone who posts a negative or positive experience with HAL does not fundamentally believe that their experience was not as they describe, but there needs to be greater acceptance in this forum, in particular, of that; I find that there seems to be a tendency to dismiss the positive personal experiences of HAL passengers as "cheerleading" while simultaneous embracing the negative personal experiences of others as "gospel".  

Either you respect and accept individual personal experiences as they are described, equally, good or bad, or you are simply engaging in confirmation bias.  

As a rule, I stay far away from Internet "forums", "message boards", and such.    I only every joined here for hard, factual, information on things such as ships, ports, that sort of thing, as we moved on to more itineraries, longer itineraries, and different lines and types of ships. 

As a younger (under 45) HAL passenger, who is quite happy with my personal experiences over 7 cruises since 2010, and happy with HAL, and happy with the changes and direction the past 5 years when compared to Princess or RCI, I can't say I have any interest in debating or discussing any of this with a great many of the long term HAL passengers here.

I do not believe that opinion is welcome here.

I would go so far as to say that I would avoid about 10 regular contributors to this forum if I knew they would be on my trip due to their online behaviour and engagement with others.

I have often seen it asked why this forum is less busy, and roll calls are less populated, than they "used to be".

Physicians, heal thyself.

Its entirely possible for me to board a HAL ship tomorrow, and have a great time, while someone else boards, and has a horrible time.   

Neither of us are "right", nor "wrong", but you wouldn't likely come to that conclusion on the basis of what you would read here.

[JRG]

1 hour ago, TheCruisingAccountant said:

As a rule, I stay far away from Internet "forums", "message boards", and such.    I only every joined here for hard, factual, information on things such as ships, ports, that sort of thing, as we moved on to more itineraries, longer itineraries, and different lines and types of ships. 

 

Many of us have joined for that same noble cause.

 

Unfortunately,  the Holland Board is diluted with excess confirmation bias and that makes it counter-productive.

 

Some of the port discussion forums here on CC implement the rule of consideration which asks members to only respond to a post if you have taken the tour or have a relevant point to make.   

 

That single rule applied to this forum would be a major step forward.

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by JRG

[sail7seas]

1 hour ago, TheCruisingAccountant said:

A website of this format will generally form a small community with a considerable amount of self selection bias and self sorting (and confirmation bias, see below).

It is just human nature.    You can win a Nobel Prize in Economics studying it.

That being said, it is also well within human capacity to understand this and overcome it to some degree.

I don't think, for the most part, that anyone who posts a negative or positive experience with HAL does not fundamentally believe that their experience was not as they describe, but there needs to be greater acceptance in this forum, in particular, of that; I find that there seems to be a tendency to dismiss the positive personal experiences of HAL passengers as "cheerleading" while simultaneous embracing the negative personal experiences of others as "gospel".  

Either you respect and accept individual personal experiences as they are described, equally, good or bad, or you are simply engaging in confirmation bias.  

As a rule, I stay far away from Internet "forums", "message boards", and such.    I only every joined here for hard, factual, information on things such as ships, ports, that sort of thing, as we moved on to more itineraries, longer itineraries, and different lines and types of ships. 

As a younger (under 45) HAL passenger, who is quite happy with my personal experiences over 7 cruises since 2010, and happy with HAL, and happy with the changes and direction the past 5 years when compared to Princess or RCI, I can't say I have any interest in debating or discussing any of this with a great many of the long term HAL passengers here.

I do not believe that opinion is welcome here.

I would go so far as to say that I would avoid about 10 regular contributors to this forum if I knew they would be on my trip due to their online behaviour and engagement with others.

I have often seen it asked why this forum is less busy, and roll calls are less populated, than they "used to be".

Physicians, heal thyself.

Its entirely possible for me to board a HAL ship tomorrow, and have a great time, while someone else boards, and has a horrible time.   

Neither of us are "right", nor "wrong", but you wouldn't likely come to that conclusion on the basis of what you would read here.

 

 

HuH?

 

You say you don't want to discuss this subject with any of us who have sailed HAL  for years, Yet,  You are the OP of this thread  are you not?  Why did you ask  an   argumentative  sort of question of people with   whom you do not wish to discuss  the question?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KirkNC]

A classic millennial approach.  If you don’t think like me or complain about something you are a hater.  Many can’t accept that  someone has a different opinion.  And to have that approach on a forum titled Cruise Critic is laughable.

 

by the way, to those who have accused me of being a hater, we are having a wonderful time on board the Maasdam right now!