Fires around Sydney

[lyndarra]

8 hours ago, The_Big_M said:

 

 

Plus it was built way too early, adding a cost over all its underutilised life, and economically obsolete before it was put into operation. Had they waited capacity could have been around double for the same cost. What happens when governments go against their well devised plan and targets and just rush things through.

That's easy to say in hindsight but at the time could anyone guarantee that the rain would come soon enough. Damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

[mr walker]

59 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Our dams have not been able to reach full capacity in years, 

 Warragamba was FULL as recently as March 2013, when they needed to release water

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, mr walker said:

 Warragamba was FULL as recently as March 2013, when they needed to release water

 

Thanks for that I had forgotten it was 6 years ago, it feels longer I think because of how the media talks about lowering of dam levels. But I still believe we need desalination plants. We are a dry country and it seems we will get drier. Yes we need to rework our water management, it would really help the farmers but it would also help inland communities if coastal communities were less reliant on inland water supply. Desalination would take the pressure of and allow us to redistribute water to other places that have less options. 

[possum52]

Thanks to those posters who replied to my post about dams. I think I understand the value of desal plants now. Regional towns/cities were mentioned - wouldn't the cost of piping the water from desal plants inland be ridiculously expensive and would it be practical?

 

Leigh

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, possum52 said:

Thanks to those posters who replied to my post about dams. I think I understand the value of desal plants now. Regional towns/cities were mentioned - wouldn't the cost of piping the water from desal plants inland be ridiculously expensive and would it be practical?

 

Leigh

 

You would probably need to built a pipe system similar to what Libya was building prior to their revolution. It is not impossible but it would be expensive however if weather patterns continue with less rain it is an option that has to be considered. The question is what price do you put on water 🤔. Personally I think if at least we could get coastal communities using more desalinated water it would mean upstream more water could be relegated to inland communities. It would be more feasible and it wouldn't mean a complete overhaul of infrastructure for regional inland communities. 

Edited January 18, 2020 by ilikeanswers

[The_Big_M]

13 hours ago, lyndarra said:

That's easy to say in hindsight but at the time could anyone guarantee that the rain would come soon enough. Damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

 

As said, it was built way before the agreed thresholds were met. There was a lot of protesting against it because it was not done in line with how it was committed to be, but just rushed through ahead of thresholds. So it was easy to see in foresight as well, nothing to do with damned if you do and if you don't. There were no calls for it prior to the contracts being rushed through.

[The_Big_M]

11 hours ago, mr walker said:

 Warragamba was FULL as recently as March 2013, when they needed to release water

 

More recently as well, again reached 100% in 2015 and 2017. So it's not a demand issue, just a supply issue... lack of rain the past 2 years.

[The_Big_M]

7 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

You would probably need to built a pipe system similar to what Libya was building prior to their revolution. It is not impossible but it would be expensive however if weather patterns continue with less rain it is an option that has to be considered. The question is what price do you put on water 🤔. Personally I think if at least we could get coastal communities using more desalinated water it would mean upstream more water could be relegated to inland communities. It would be more feasible and it wouldn't mean a complete overhaul of infrastructure for regional inland communities. 

 

However, there are other alternatives with leaks from the existing piping an ongoing issue, plus excessive restrictions on grey and recycled water.

[in rod we trust]

if they can pipe gas and oil for thousands of k's they can do it with water .. or these big major companies that just drain rivers for crops should be building there own desal plants and piping there own water.. but it wont happen cities will run dry before they do anything about it... if the gov cannot sell it they will not build it... they have sold us out in all other gas , power , water , agriculture , land , ports. airports etc etc  very little left to sell .. if any .. never know now the fire has burnt a lot of land they can sell that off .. about time we pull the finger out and save our beautiful country ..

[lyndarra]

3 hours ago, in rod we trust said:

if they can pipe gas and oil for thousands of k's they can do it with water .. or these big major companies that just drain rivers for crops should be building there own desal plants and piping there own water.. but it wont happen cities will run dry before they do anything about it... if the gov cannot sell it they will not build it... they have sold us out in all other gas , power , water , agriculture , land , ports. airports etc etc  very little left to sell .. if any .. never know now the fire has burnt a lot of land they can sell that off .. about time we pull the finger out and save our beautiful country ..

Ever noticed that gas is somewhat lighter than water, eh? Water is 1kg per litre. Unless gravity assisted that's a lot of weight to move, therefore, pumping uses a lot of energy = espensive.

[MicCanberra]

Hoping for some rain today. Expecting some this afternoon, fingers crossed.

[mr walker]

10 hours ago, The_Big_M said:

 

More recently as well, again reached 100% in 2015 and 2017. So it's not a demand issue, just a supply issue... lack of rain the past 2 years.

 

Your "supply issue" to me is a lack of storage issue.

[OzKiwiJJ]

Rain or no rain, Sydney is still growing. We have around 5 million people at present and what was probably adequate storage for a much smaller population is now woefully inadequate. The Warragamba Dam was opened in 1960 when the population was just over 2 million.

Edited January 19, 2020 by OzKiwiJJ

[Docker123]

3 hours ago, mr walker said:

 

Your "supply issue" to me is a lack of storage issue.

Today’s Sydney dam levels. Bottom right show significant decrease in storage from last year.

 

 

 

 

[MicCanberra]

The problem with dams is when they start getting down to low levels (under 20%) the water needs much more treatment due to the sediments.

[The_Big_M]

5 hours ago, mr walker said:

 

Your "supply issue" to me is a lack of storage issue.

 

You can have an infinite amount of storage, but if there isn't supply, that storage is going to be empty.

 

We have sufficient storage and have had for a long time, hence (almost) nobody talking about more dams. The issue is lack of rainfall... or supply.

[The_Big_M]

4 hours ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Rain or no rain, Sydney is still growing. We have around 5 million people at present and what was probably adequate storage for a much smaller population is now woefully inadequate. The Warragamba Dam was opened in 1960 when the population was just over 2 million.

 

And was built with future growth in mind, which is the sensible way to build such infrastructure. Further, it has also had capacity increases over the time since it was built. 

[The_Big_M]

2 hours ago, Docker123 said:

Today’s Sydney dam levels. Bottom right show significant decrease in storage from last year.

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed. There's plenty of storage available, and has been for the past two years. The real problem is that storage just hasn't been getting filled...

[OzKiwiJJ]

38 minutes ago, The_Big_M said:

 

And was built with future growth in mind, which is the sensible way to build such infrastructure. Further, it has also had capacity increases over the time since it was built. 

But obviously not big enough for the still growing Sydney population, predicted to reach 6 million by 2030.

 

Dam storage is often rated by the number of years of water use it can sustain for the area it serves, which has to allow for periods of drought. The current levels and predicted short-term usage show that it is no longer adequate. It's running low too quickly. Rainfall is becoming less reliable so alternatives, like desalination, are needed to make up the shortfall. 

[MicCanberra]

Maybe we should all just learn/evolve to drink sea water, would help the coastal cities anyway.

[The_Big_M]

42 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

But obviously not big enough for the still growing Sydney population, predicted to reach 6 million by 2030.

 

Dam storage is often rated by the number of years of water use it can sustain for the area it serves, which has to allow for periods of drought. The current levels and predicted short-term usage show that it is no longer adequate. It's running low too quickly. Rainfall is becoming less reliable so alternatives, like desalination, are needed to make up the shortfall. 

 

It still is obviously big enough. It's been running 2 years without being replenished substantially and still has more to go. That's not "short term usage". That's long term supply.

 

If there was decent rainfall such that we used to have there wouldn't be an issue. You can't build dams based on 10+ years capacity as a solution. And you can't build 10% of your city as dams.

[OzKiwiJJ]

30 minutes ago, The_Big_M said:

 

It still is obviously big enough. It's been running 2 years without being replenished substantially and still has more to go. That's not "short term usage". That's long term supply.

 

If there was decent rainfall such that we used to have there wouldn't be an issue. You can't build dams based on 10+ years capacity as a solution. And you can't build 10% of your city as dams.

The "short term usage" I was referring to is the expected usage over the next year.

 

Yes, 10+ years capacity would be a bit too much to ask (it would be nice though😄) but if Sydney is going to grow as predicted, and droughts are more likely as predicted, then dams alone are not going to fulfill the requirements.

[Porky55]

Just curious, what power is used to run the desalination plants? 🤔
 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Porky55

[MicCanberra]

52 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

Just curious, what power is used to run the desalination plants? 🤔
 

http://www.awa.asn.au/AWA_MBRR/Publications/Fact_Sheets/Desalination_Fact_Sheet.aspx

[Docker123]

Yep, basically lots and lots of electricity.

 

Some, such as Wonthaggi, claim to require supply of renewable energy. They have access to wind farm electricity through their contracted supplier.