Yikes! Over age 70 passengers need doctor’s note (Merged threads)

[4774Papa]

1 hour ago, travelordie said:

It was the Cruise Lines International Association (CLIA) who decided age discrimination was OK after determining that only 13% of those who cruise are 70 or older.  I suspect that if the CLIA had calculated what percentage of their total revenue came from those 70 or older, they would have come up with a much higher number.  Older cruisers take far more cruises, take much longer cruises and take more luxury cruises.  

Since the death rates for the virus are much higher for elderly, I understand the policy requiring a doctors note.  I am 72 and want my doctor's approval for travel prior to a vaccine.

 

Death rate for coronavirus over 65.      I know that at one time the USA only had one death from the virus for persons under 24.

https://www.businessinsider.com/most-us-coronavirus-deaths-ages-65-older-cdc-report-2020-3?op=1

[hcat]

Death rates have been reported as higher for certain groups with co morbidities ( whatever that is? ) but no way would they require a drs note based upon  a racial, religious,  social.or ethnic group affiliation...

 

Make everyone get a note or no one!

[travelordie]

13 minutes ago, 4774Papa said:

Since the death rates for the virus are much higher for elderly, I understand the policy requiring a doctors note.  I am 72 and want my doctor's approval for travel prior to a vaccine.

 

No one is disputing that the death rate for COVID-19 is much higher in the elderly.   Death rates for diseases have always been higher among the elderly.  For example, heart disease, respiratory disease and cancer rates are all much higher among those 65 and older.  I am 72 and healthy but my physician won't provide a letter. I don't blame him for not wanting to take on the liability.  

 

The cruise industry introduced the age discriminatory rule because they hoped it would result in a US government bailout.  It failed to do that.  Therefore I predict when cruise activity restarts, this age discrimination will stop.  I will cruise again but not if it requires me to coerce my physician to sign a letter that he would prefer not to sign.

[markeb]

3 minutes ago, hcat said:

Death rates have been reported as higher for certain groups with co morbidities ( whatever that is? ) but no way would they require a drs note based upon  a racial, religious,  social.or ethnic group affiliation...

 

Make everyone get a note or no one!

 

That actually wouldn't surprise me...  And it could eventually include certification of vaccine status or immune status. Which could become requirements for entry into destinations along the way, like smallpox and yellow fever once were, a long time ago.

[hcat]

Interesting..same issue raised on the will we cruise thread

[Fouremco]

33 minutes ago, travelordie said:

I am 72 and healthy but my physician won't provide a letter. I don't blame him for not wanting to take on the liability.  

Where is the liability? The doctor is signing a form covering two things: that you don't suffer from any chronic illness which would make you susceptible to complications arising after infection, and that you are otherwise fit to cruise. The first item is a simple yes or no, you either have or don't have such a chronic illness. Doctors sign off forms with this type of question all the time. Are you fit to cruise? This is clearly more subjective, but as a doctor, providing an honest assessment of your physical well-being on the date the form is signed shouldn't be an issue IMO. 

 

DW and I no longer scuba dive, but when we did, getting a medical note was a routine requirement. We never had any doctor refuse to sign, although the risks associated with diving outweigh anything you might encounter on a cruise. As I said, I just don't see where the liability issue lies. If your doctor doesn't want to sign off because you have a chronic illness such as diabetes, I'd understand, or if there were some other medical issue that renders you unfit, I'd understand, but because of liability issues????

[hcat]

May not be a valid concern but drs are averse to liability!

[Content@Sea]

The CLIA posted a new travel alert on 3 April 2020:

https://cruising.org/about-the-industry/policy-priorities/cruise-industry-policies/Health

 

There is no mention of AGE RESTRICTION or a DOCTOR LETTER.
"As part of their commitment to passenger and crew safety in the context of communicable diseases, CLIA’s Members have adopted the following policy for all oceangoing vessels:
 

All embarking persons are to receive pre-boarding health screening, to assist in preventing the spread of communicable diseases.

In light of recent developments related to COVID-19 the policy has been amended with preventative measures applicable to crew and others that board ships while passenger services are suspended. These measures are under constant review. Additional measures applicable to passengers will be considered as the industry approaches resuming passenger operations."

The advisory goes on to detail the measures...

 

What do you make of this? Seems that we may be off the hook???

 

[downsmead]

In the UK, they are now warning people in the 50 - 69 age group.

[Content@Sea]

12 minutes ago, downsmead said:

In the UK, they are now warning people in the 50 - 69 age group.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. That demographic is still pretty much in the pre-retirement group. 

 

[drakes2]

1 hour ago, travelordie said:

 

The cruise industry introduced the age discriminatory rule because they hoped it would result in a US government bailout.

If they don't pay US taxes why would they think they are entitled to a bailout?

[helen haywood]

Just my opinion but I don't think the over 70 with health issues letter was because they hoped the US Government would bail them out....I think they just hoped it would allow them to continue to sail.

[travelordie]

43 minutes ago, Content@Sea said:

The CLIA posted a new travel alert on 3 April 2020:

https://cruising.org/about-the-industry/policy-priorities/cruise-industry-policies/Health

 

There is no mention of AGE RESTRICTION or a DOCTOR LETTER.
 

 

What do you make of this? Seems that we may be off the hook???

 

This is potentially great news as long as it filters down to the cruise lines and they act upon it.  I went to the websites of three cruise lines which are CLIA members:  Celebrity, Azamara and Scenic.

 

Both Celebrity and Azamara, as of today, state:

 

"The safety and well-being of our guests and crew is our top priority. All current travel restrictions and requirements were implemented as temporary measures. At this time, the Fit to Travel form for guests 70 years of age and older continues to be part of the health screening and boarding protocol."

 

So either CLIA has not informed these cruise lines of the change in policy or these cruise lines have taken it upon themselves to maintain this age discrimination.

 

Scenic does not mention any policy relating to those 70 or older which pleases me as we have a Scenic cruise planned for December.

[travelordie]

36 minutes ago, drakes2 said:

If they don't pay US taxes why would they think they are entitled to a bailout?

Since I don't support a bailout, I can only speculate.  Here's what appeared in the Miami Herald in late March:

 

"According to CLIA, the cruise industry is responsible for 150,000 Florida jobs and $7.7 billion in wages. The three major lines have about 10,000 employees based in South Florida."

Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article241547471.html#storylink=cpy

[Content@Sea]

4 minutes ago, travelordie said:

This is potentially great news as long as it filters down to the cruise lines and they act upon it.  I went to the websites of three cruise lines which are CLIA members:  Celebrity, Azamara and Scenic.

 

Both Celebrity and Azamara, as of today, state:

 

"The safety and well-being of our guests and crew is our top priority. All current travel restrictions and requirements were implemented as temporary measures. At this time, the Fit to Travel form for guests 70 years of age and older continues to be part of the health screening and boarding protocol."

 

So either CLIA has not informed these cruise lines of the change in policy or these cruise lines have taken it upon themselves to maintain this age discrimination.

 

Scenic does not mention any policy relating to those 70 or older which pleases me as we have a Scenic cruise planned for December.

Thanks for the additional research. I'm starting to get the feeling that by October, things will be more "normal."

The remaining issue will likely be our Philippine crews, who change ships frequently, as their contracts expire.  Philippines has pretty high C-stats.
 

[travelordie]

38 minutes ago, helen haywood said:

Just my opinion but I don't think the over 70 with health issues letter was because they hoped the US Government would bail them out....I think they just hoped it would allow them to continue to sail.

Here's why I initially thought they hoped for a bailout:

 

“We can’t let the cruise lines go out of business,” President Trump said on March 22 as Congress was working out the final details of the coronavirus relief package that would become the CARES Act.

 

Source:  https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/cruise-lines-are-already-getting-coronavirus-support.html

 

However,  you are probably correct and the industry was merely hoping they could continue to sail.

[4774Papa]

2 hours ago, travelordie said:

No one is disputing that the death rate for COVID-19 is much higher in the elderly.   Death rates for diseases have always been higher among the elderly.  For example, heart disease, respiratory disease and cancer rates are all much higher among those 65 and older.  I am 72 and healthy but my physician won't provide a letter. I don't blame him for not wanting to take on the liability.  

 

The cruise industry introduced the age discriminatory rule because they hoped it would result in a US government bailout.  It failed to do that.  Therefore I predict when cruise activity restarts, this age discrimination will stop.  I will cruise again but not if it requires me to coerce my physician to sign a letter that he would prefer not to sign.

I am a retired attorney and familiar with the medical malpractice issue.    When I lived in Maryland, some physicians would not accept attorneys as patients because they had been sued.   Of course, I did find a good physician.

 

My current GP raves about how healthy that I am for my age.  A few years ago, I did a 108 mile bike ride in 7.5 hours.  My heart rate is in the 50s because I do lots of cardio exercise.  I have no underlying diseases.  I would be very surprised if he refused to sign my clearance form.    A physician that says you are  healthy and won't sign the letter is not doing his job.

[Fouremco]

1 hour ago, Content@Sea said:

What do you make of this? Seems that we may be off the hook???

 

My understanding is that the CLIA sets the broad policy framework for its members, and leaves it to them how to implement the policy within the framework. Thus we've seen different forms and different ages (70 and over versus over seventy) with different cruise lines. So if Celebrity chooses to go above and beyond the basis level of prevention, the CLIA is unlikely to object IMO.

 

Note that the alert is almost three weeks old. While it's possible that Celebrity hasn't made any change to its policy yet simply because the fleet has ceased operations until at least June 12, I believe that it is more likely that the April 3 alert didn't necessitate a change.

 

BTW, I hope you are right and that I'm wrong, as I'm a 70+ with a chronic illness and several thousand dollars in FCCs!

[Content@Sea]

9 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

My understanding is that the CLIA sets the broad policy framework for its members, and leaves it to them how to implement the policy within the framework. Thus we've seen different forms and different ages (70 and over versus over seventy) with different cruise lines. So if Celebrity chooses to go above and beyond the basis level of prevention, the CLIA is unlikely to object IMO.

 

Note that the alert is almost three weeks old. While it's possible that Celebrity hasn't made any change to its policy yet simply because the fleet has ceased operations until at least June 12, I believe that it is more likely that the April 3 alert didn't necessitate a change.

 

BTW, I hope you are right and that I'm wrong, as I'm a 70+ with a chronic illness and several thousand dollars in FCCs!

We're all gonna be just fine... looking on the bright side for all of us! 😷

"the fleet has ceased operations until at least June 12, I believe that it is more likely that the April 3 alert didn't necessitate a change"
Really good point! I am going to ignore this whole thing for now. My cruise isn't until October. The situation is very fluid, no matter how much we try to guess about the future...
There are more fun things to do right now! 💃🕺🎵🍹

[keesar]

42 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

My understanding is that the CLIA sets the broad policy framework for its members, and leaves it to them how to implement the policy within the framework. Thus we've seen different forms and different ages (70 and over versus over seventy) with different cruise lines. So if Celebrity chooses to go above and beyond the basis level of prevention, the CLIA is unlikely to object IMO.

 

Note that the alert is almost three weeks old. While it's possible that Celebrity hasn't made any change to its policy yet simply because the fleet has ceased operations until at least June 12, I believe that it is more likely that the April 3 alert didn't necessitate a change.

 

BTW, I hope you are right and that I'm wrong, as I'm a 70+ with a chronic illness and several thousand dollars in FCCs!

 

I received an email this morning from another cruise line in the same category as Celebrity.  There was no mention of a doctor's note in order to cruise.  I called today to book and it was confirmed.  No note or certification is needed.  So it must be a Celebrity policy and I know what they can do with that!   There are other options out there for those 70 and above.  

 

[DaveSJ711]

I'll bet the "age discrimination" folks aren't turning down their senior discounts.

[Fouremco]

1 minute ago, keesar said:

 

I received an email this morning from another cruise line in the same category as Celebrity.  There was no mention of a doctor's note in order to cruise.  I called today to book and it was confirmed.  No note or certification is needed.  So it must be a Celebrity policy and I know what they can do with that!   There are other options out there for those 70 and above.  

 

If you do a dummy booking on the Celebrity website, at no point is there any mention of this requirement. I haven't tried calling, but I suspect that if you phoned Celebrity to make a booking and didn't ask about the form, they wouldn't volunteer the information. While the information is on the website, you wouldn't know about the requirement unless you went looking for it.

 

As a matter of interest, who did you book with? I just checked the HAL site and there's no indication there that I could find of any requirement for a 70+ form anywhere on the site.

[C-Dragons]

4 hours ago, hcat said:

Death rates have been reported as higher for certain groups with co morbidities ( whatever that is? ) but no way would they require a drs note based upon  a racial, religious,  social.or ethnic group affiliation...

 

Make everyone get a note or no one!

Comorbidity- the simultaneous presence of two chronic diseases or conditions in a patient.
IMO, anyone diagnosed with comorbidities, regardless of age, shouldn’t be cruising, as the risks are too high with the virus running rampant.

I don’t believe X's intent was to engage in ageism (with the requirement of a Dr.'s note). When the contagion began and people started dying, the majority were those who were older. As time went by doctors discovered that the underlying conditions (comorbidities) were dangerous for all age groups. So, perhaps doctor's notes will be required for everyone, at least until a vaccine is found.

[travelordie]

8 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

 

 

As a matter of interest, who did you book with? I just checked the HAL site and there's no indication there that I could find of any requirement for a 70+ form anywhere on the site.

I just checked the websites of HAL, Princess and Seabourn, all of which are Carnival Corp brands.  None of them now list the medical note requirement for those 70 and older. 

[hcat]

C-Dragons....

Thank you for clarification.  So much to digest  out there...Learned alot from alll the discussions . Just hoping to cruise in 2021

 

Never thought they had an intent to discriminate, but  now newer stats where we live have included many in the age group under 70..(even aside from health care workers and first responders who are very much exposed and getting the virus). 

Hope the nightmare ends !

Edited April 22, 2020 by hcat