Are vaccines the light at the end of the tunnel?

[Charles4515]

10 minutes ago, Oville said:

Hcat, how difficult do you think it would be to make Counterfeit cards showing all the info the current card has on it but fictitious info?  People probably will make a bundle off it.  As Floridians it sounds like we will not be able to get a vaccine passport issued from the state.  Hopefully the feds will issue them.  I sure wouldn’t hop on a cruise if the only verification of vaccination is one of those cards.

 

Only a very small number of people would get counterfeit cards for a cruise. Most people are not sociopaths or criminals. (presenting a counterfeit credential if required would be fraud) Also if someone did it and got Covid or tested  positive it would be pretty easy to determine from the lot number that the credential was false. Besides different types of legal trouble they would be in the cruise line would undoubtedly put them on a no sail list. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Charles4515

[docsneeze]

46 minutes ago, ch175 said:

Clearly, from reading this, vaccines are not the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

There are two options with the vaccine that I have heard from “official” channels in the past week or so.

 

One, the vaccine prevents people from getting sick and being carriers. If that’s the case, you are good if you choose to get the vaccine. Anyone who doesn’t take it can’t possibly impact you. Stop worrying.

 

Two, the vaccine lessens the impact of the virus and you can still be a carrier and transmit it. So it really doesn’t matter if anyone gets vaccinated or not. In fact, it might be worse for others if you get vaccinated since you might still be a transmitter with mild or no symptoms, rather than unvaccinated and knowingly sick.

 

And these rapid tests? Everything I’ve read about them is that they have a false negative rate of anywhere between 30 and 100%, with them being worse the closer it is to when you were exposed. So you could be a transmitter and test negative. They are essentially worthless.

    Unfortunately, you are mistaken.  Most recent Pfizer data shows 91% efficacy 6 months out.  Great but not 100%.  Less transmissable but not perfect.  

   Unvaccinated people can also be asymptomatic.   So best to have everyone vaccinated.  Newer rapid tests about 95% reliable but PCR best.

    Need to protect ourselves and others.  That is essentially the government mandate in which policy should be made. Use of vaccine passports may reduce forgery by those unscrupulous enough to attempt it but I am OK with use of plain Vax cards.

    Apologize for tangent of discussing my son who is 3 but many of you have been unable to see.family because of Covid fears.  The vaccines now allow those visits to take place safely in some instances.  If nothing else, FAMILY is the most important reason for all of us to vaccinate.

[terrydtx]

1 hour ago, ch175 said:

Clearly, from reading this, vaccines are not the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

There are two options with the vaccine that I have heard from “official” channels in the past week or so.

 

One, the vaccine prevents people from getting sick and being carriers. If that’s the case, you are good if you choose to get the vaccine. Anyone who doesn’t take it can’t possibly impact you. Stop worrying.

 

Two, the vaccine lessens the impact of the virus and you can still be a carrier and transmit it. So it really doesn’t matter if anyone gets vaccinated or not. In fact, it might be worse for others if you get vaccinated since you might still be a transmitter with mild or no symptoms, rather than unvaccinated and knowingly sick.

 

And these rapid tests? Everything I’ve read about them is that they have a false negative rate of anywhere between 30 and 100%, with them being worse the closer it is to when you were exposed. So you could be a transmitter and test negative. They are essentially worthless.

I think you have missed the point about being vaccinated and cruising. It is not about protecting the vaccinated.  If the cruise lines allow unvaccinated passengers and if a few of them get Covid while on the cruise, we are back to what happened in March 2020,  with  ports denying docking and ships going nowhere under quarantine. The cruise lines have the absolute RIGHT to make sure ALL passengers are vaccinated. Since it sounds like you are an anti-vaccer and that is your right, but the reality will be for the next few years you will be left home while the rest of us get to travel and that is fine with most of us. Get Stuck or Stay Stuck at Home!!

Edited April 3, 2021 by terrydtx

[nocl]

1 hour ago, ch175 said:

Clearly, from reading this, vaccines are not the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

There are two options with the vaccine that I have heard from “official” channels in the past week or so.

 

One, the vaccine prevents people from getting sick and being carriers. If that’s the case, you are good if you choose to get the vaccine. Anyone who doesn’t take it can’t possibly impact you. Stop worrying.

 

Two, the vaccine lessens the impact of the virus and you can still be a carrier and transmit it. So it really doesn’t matter if anyone gets vaccinated or not. In fact, it might be worse for others if you get vaccinated since you might still be a transmitter with mild or no symptoms, rather than unvaccinated and knowingly sick.

 

And these rapid tests? Everything I’ve read about them is that they have a false negative rate of anywhere between 30 and 100%, with them being worse the closer it is to when you were exposed. So you could be a transmitter and test negative. They are essentially worthless.

Your information is obsolete. There have no been completed trials that do show for moderns and pfizer that the vaccines not only reduce symptomatic disease between 90 and 95%. But also reduce asymptomatic disease and transmission by a similar amount. This data comes from an Israeli  study, as well as recently published Pfizer data.

[nocl]

2 hours ago, TeeRick said:

COVID vaccine might be helpful to COVID Long Haulers.  Hopefully this gets to be a proven remedy.  Time will tell.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/03/health/long-haulers-vaccine-wellness/index.html

The data I have seen is that the symptoms improve for about 1/3, remain the same for another 1/3 and get worse for the last 1/3.

 

 

[zitsky]

50 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

Only a very small number of people would get counterfeit cards for a cruise. Most people are not sociopaths or criminals. (presenting a counterfeit credential if required would be fraud) Also if someone did it and got Covid or tested  positive it would be pretty easy to determine from the lot number that the credential was false. Besides different types of legal trouble they would be in the cruise line would undoubtedly put them on a no sail list. 

 

Emotional Support Animal.  There was a lot of fraud there.

[hcat]

From  latest CDC update I  just saw online. I am sure someone will post much more.

 

Re :Vaccinations:

"COVID-19 vaccination efforts will be critical in the safe resumption of passenger operations. As more people are fully vaccinated, the phased approach allows CDC to incorporate these advancements into planning for resumption of cruise ship travel when it is safe to do so," the CDC said in a statement. "CDC recommends that all eligible port personnel and travelers (passengers and crew) get a COVID-19 vaccine when one is available to them..."

 

Interesting!

Doubt  cruise co  will let anyone board without  vaccination, neg test, temp test,  oxygen level test...etc.  Wear masks...  Whatever they can do to avoid a calamity!

[hcat]

2 hours ago, TeeRick said:

What if you need some type of official electronic vaccine passport to enter and cruise from certain countries as part of their requirements?  What if they will not accept the paper cards?

I am sure pvt  enterprise will cover this..already doing it for sporting and other events.

[hcat]

1 hour ago, Oville said:

Hcat, how difficult do you think it would be to make Counterfeit cards showing all the info the current card has on it but fictitious info?  People probably will make a bundle off it.  As Floridians it sounds like we will not be able to get a vaccine passport issued from the state.  Hopefully the feds will issue them.  I sure wouldn’t hop on a cruise if the only verification of vaccination is one of those cards.

 Hi Katie

 Sorry to let you know that you can get easily get all  sorts of fakes online for anything  in any language you'd like  (ID, drivers  licenses , birth certifs., marriage certifs, green cards,  service  animals, state, fed and  pvt stuff like diplomas..A whole  gamut of paper. )   Some are very well done .  Trust me!.

 

No reason to suspect it won't happen with this as well.  But with a proper release and lots of staff time, each card could  probably be verified.

Sad but true.

[TeaBag]

This is a very interesting thread.  We are so happy to have received our first shot of Pfizer.  Can't say zippedy do da yet, as we have to wait 4 months in Canada for the second one.  Hopefully as more people get the first vaccine that length of time might be shortened.

 

I respect the right of people who do not want the vaccine for whatever reason but they do not have the right to endanger the rest of us.  I do hope the cruise lines stick to their mandate of allowing only vaccinated people on the ships.  What would this world be like in a year or two if everyone refused the vaccine?

Edited April 3, 2021 by TeaBag

[hcat]

3 hours ago, TeeRick said:

hcat- it seems that this company has had a series of previous problems with the FDA.  It is more than a bit worrisome to me too.

 

https://apnews.com/article/virus-vaccine-johnson-and-johnson-emergent-biosolutions-d9edd171f8013e17c0be8b13a6db7fed

Scary..esp for those who rely  upon belief that all is well.

[zitsky]

19 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

I am surprised Comrade Newson allowed private schools to remain open in California. We have been more fortunate here in Texas, our daughter and son live in the Dallas Ft worth area. Our son lives in a school district north of Dallas that has been open all year and our granddaughter and grandson love being able to go to school. They both are in Elementary and not one confirmed case of Covid all year in the school. Our daughter and two grandsons are in another school district close to Ft Worth and they have only been back in school since last November and at home learning took a toll on them both. They have a couple of confirmed Covid cases but they were both caught before they spread anything.

 

We have been fortunate that we traveled many times from San Antonio to see both our kids and grandkids over the last year. Both of their families have also traveled here to see us and even go to a condo at the beach last summer. My wife and I recently have been vaccinated but pre vaccine we traveled with out any fear and we are both 71 years old.  Our restaurants opened up last June to reduced capacity and are now open 100% but my wife, family and friends eat out at least twice a week with out fear of the virus. Remember the famous quote from FDR "all we have to fear is fear itself" Go see you grandkids and do not fear this virus, you have done the right first step in getting vaccinated.

 

I think it's great it worked out for your family, but not everyone is that lucky.

[TrulyBlonde]

13 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

I am surprised Comrade Newson allowed private schools to remain open in California. We have been more fortunate here in Texas, our daughter and son live in the Dallas Ft worth area. Our son lives in a school district north of Dallas that has been open all year and our granddaughter and grandson love being able to go to school. They both are in Elementary and not one confirmed case of Covid all year in the school. Our daughter and two grandsons are in another school district close to Ft Worth and they have only been back in school since last November and at home learning took a toll on them both. They have a couple of confirmed Covid cases but they were both caught before they spread anything.

 

We have been fortunate that we traveled many times from San Antonio to see both our kids and grandkids over the last year. Both of their families have also traveled here to see us and even go to a condo at the beach last summer. My wife and I recently have been vaccinated but pre vaccine we traveled with out any fear and we are both 71 years old.  Our restaurants opened up last June to reduced capacity and are now open 100% but my wife, family and friends eat out at least twice a week with out fear of the virus. Remember the famous quote from FDR "all we have to fear is fear itself" Go see you grandkids and do not fear this virus, you have done the right first step in getting vaccinated.

My Grandson is in private school and they had numerous guidelines that had to be accomplished prior to opening in Sept. I do not think the Governor had control over the private schools? The public ones have just been allowed to open for 2 days a week. OK..all of you have me very excited because it has been too long without my family. My daughter, his Mother, had the covid at Christmas so she should be immune now too. 

Now, back to cruising. I am booked for a 10 day Caribbean end of April 2022. We have been on 30 cruises and all Continents so this will be a nice way to get back into it. This is on Celebrity too.

[Oville]

1 hour ago, hcat said:

 Hi Katie

 Sorry to let you know that you can get easily get all  sorts of fakes online for anything  in any language you'd like  (ID, drivers  licenses , birth certifs., marriage certifs, green cards,  service  animals, state, fed and  pvt stuff like diplomas..A whole  gamut of paper. )   Some are very well done .  Trust me!.

 

No reason to suspect it won't happen with this as well.  But with a proper release and lots of staff time, each card could  probably be verified.

Sad but true.

Hi Hcat, yes many forms of ID are pretty easy to come by.  My guess, and only a guess, is the CDC will endure the cruise lines can easily cross reference the vaccine card to the national database if such a thing exists.  Other venues won’t be so easy to confirm.

[KWW88]

13 minutes ago, TrulyBlonde said:

My Grandson is in private school and they had numerous guidelines that had to be accomplished prior to opening in Sept. I do not think the Governor had control over the private schools? The public ones have just been allowed to open for 2 days a week. OK..all of you have me very excited because it has been too long without my family. My daughter, his Mother, had the covid at Christmas so she should be immune now too. 

Now, back to cruising. I am booked for a 10 day Caribbean end of April 2022. We have been on 30 cruises and all Continents so this will be a nice way to get back into it. This is on Celebrity too.

How lovely, enjoy that time with your family!!

[hcat]

45 minutes ago, Oville said:

Hi Hcat, yes many forms of ID are pretty easy to come by.  My guess, and only a guess, is the CDC will endure the cruise lines can easily cross reference the vaccine card to the national database if such a thing exists.  Other venues won’t be so easy to confirm.

I am sure they will come up with something.

Vaccine records are medical  records that are protected in various ways..but I am sure there will be a red light green light  system.

[Ken the cruiser]

Not sure if this specific CDC "Media Statement" has been posted yet, but to those folks that think otherwise, vaccines will very much play a BIG role when it comes to cruises starting back up.  

 

COVID-19 vaccination efforts will be critical in the safe resumption of passenger operations. As more people are fully vaccinated, the phased approach allows CDC to incorporate these advancements into planning for resumption of cruise ship travel when it is safe to do so. CDC recommends that all eligible port personnel and travelers (passengers and crew) get a COVID-19 vaccine when one is available to them.

 

CDC Issues Next Phase of the Conditional Sail Order for Cruise Ship Operators | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC

 

Yes, CDC may sometimes act like big brother, but sometimes that's a good thing, especially during times like these when there is such a devastating virus as the one we've all been dealing with globally for well over a year now. So, if we now have to wait for the various phases of the CDC plan to be completed, we're cool with that as I'm pretty sure everyone involved from the cruise lines to the port authorities and all organizations in between will now use this roadmap to continue to do everything they can to get us back to cruising ASAP. As far as an estimated timetable from someone over in the peanut gallery, I'm guessing Celebrity will complete the following tasks by:

 

Phase 2A - Voyage Preparation - by the end of April

Phase 2B - Simulated (trial) Passenger Voyages - by the end of May

Phase 3 - Conditional Sailing Certification - by the end of June

Phase 4 - Restricted Passenger Voyages - starting the beginning of July

 

Of course, if anyone has different estimates, please feel free to share. BTW I just love this image @paulh84posted on a different thread about the TIs.

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Ken the cruiser

[KWW88]

2 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Not sure if this specific CDC "Media Statement" has been posted yet, but to those folks that think otherwise, vaccines will very much play a BIG role when it comes to cruises starting back up.  

 

COVID-19 vaccination efforts will be critical in the safe resumption of passenger operations. As more people are fully vaccinated, the phased approach allows CDC to incorporate these advancements into planning for resumption of cruise ship travel when it is safe to do so. CDC recommends that all eligible port personnel and travelers (passengers and crew) get a COVID-19 vaccine when one is available to them.

 

CDC Issues Next Phase of the Conditional Sail Order for Cruise Ship Operators | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC

 

Yes, CDC may sometimes act like big brother, but sometimes that's a good thing, especially during times like these when there is such a devastating virus as the one we've all been dealing with globally for well over a year now. So, if we have now have to wait for the various phases of the CDC plan to be completed, we're cool with that as I'm pretty sure everyone involved from the cruise lines to the port authorities and all organizations in between will continue to do everything they can to get us back to cruising ASAP. As far as an estimated timetable from someone over in the peanut gallery, I'm guessing Celebrity will complete the following tasks by:

 

Phase 2A - Voyage Preparation - by the end of April

Phase 2B - Simulated (trial) Passenger Voyages - by the end of May

Phase 3 - Conditional Sailing Certification - by the end of June

Phase 4 - Restricted Passenger Voyages - starting the beginning of July

 

Of course, if anyone has different estimates, please feel free to share. BTW I just love this image @paulh84posted on a different thread about the TIs.

 

I am very impressed with the way the CDC seems to be handling this.  I realize it has been very controversial, but it the long run, I think most will feel it has made sense once we see how all of these changes are implemented on the ship and in ports.  I am glad that they are requiring vaccines in order to board.

[terrydtx]

2 hours ago, TrulyBlonde said:

My daughter, his Mother, had the covid at Christmas so she should be immune now too. 

Unfortunately having Covid is proving to not make you immune from getting it again. My next door neighbor, who is in her 40's and a health care provider at one of our hospitals,  got a bad case of Covid last April and survived but now has some permanent lung and heart damage as a result.  She then got Covid again in December, but it was much more mild. The doctors in her hospital are suggesting that all health care workers who had Covid also get vaccinated which she did in January. She is currently in Africa as she also volunteers with Doctors without Borders. She is one of the most courageous people I know. The point I am trying to make is that your daughter should also get vaccinated when she is eligible. 

 

Now go see your family and enjoy your time with them as much as possible.

[terrydtx]

2 hours ago, Oville said:

Hi Hcat, yes many forms of ID are pretty easy to come by.  My guess, and only a guess, is the CDC will endure the cruise lines can easily cross reference the vaccine card to the national database if such a thing exists.  Other venues won’t be so easy to confirm.

My friend works for Homeland security and he has told me the number of fake passports both US and foreign that come through US customs is astounding.  He estimates for every fake passport they catch 3 get through customs every day undetected.  Fake vaccine cards will be a problem but lets hope most passengers are not as nefarious as people using fake passports. 

[HskrCrsr]

2 hours ago, TrulyBlonde said:

... My daughter, his Mother, had the covid at Christmas so she should be immune now too. ...

 

3 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

Unfortunately having Covid is proving to not make you immune from getting it again. My next door neighbor, who is in her 40's and a health care provider at one of our hospitals,  got a bad case of Covid last April and survived but now has some permanent lung and heart damage as a result.  She then got Covid again in December, but it was much more mild. The doctors in her hospital are suggesting that all health care workers who had Covid also get vaccinated which she did in January. She is currently in Africa as she also volunteers with Doctors without Borders. She is one of the most courageous people I know. The point I am trying to make is that your daughter should also get vaccinated when she is eligible. 

 

Now go see your family and enjoy your time with them as much as possible.

 

My understanding in personal conversations with people who understand disease, vaccines, and such, is that the vaccine provides greater immunity than actually having the disease. There are some US senators who disagree.

 

Others on this thread have posted some excellent and detailed info on COVID, but I don't recall this specific aspect being addressed. Does anyone have a better citation than my hearsay?

[terrydtx]

8 minutes ago, HskrCrsr said:

My understanding in personal conversations with people who understand disease, vaccines, and such, is that the vaccine provides greater immunity than actually having the disease. There are some US senators who disagree.

That is what I have been told by the medical people I know here in San Antonio. Before I retired last year I worked with almost every hospital in the area and know a lot of medical experts.  I should have added my neighbor on the other side of me is a retired dentist who does volunteer dental work at a local prison and he got Covid from the prison and has now also been vaccinated.  

Edited April 3, 2021 by terrydtx

[TrulyBlonde]

15 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

Unfortunately having Covid is proving to not make you immune from getting it again. My next door neighbor, who is in her 40's and a health care provider at one of our hospitals,  got a bad case of Covid last April and survived but now has some permanent lung and heart damage as a result.  She then got Covid again in December, but it was much more mild. The doctors in her hospital are suggesting that all health care workers who had Covid also get vaccinated which she did in January. She is currently in Africa as she also volunteers with Doctors without Borders. She is one of the most courageous people I know. The point I am trying to make is that your daughter should also get vaccinated when she is eligible. 

 

Now go see your family and enjoy your time with them as much as possible.

Trust me, I want her to get the vaccine. I have another daughter in FL, who is signed up to get it (she wants it) and then the CA one is an anti-vaxer. 

CA daughter loves to travel, so if I decide to take the family on a Disney cruise, she can sit home 😉 I guarantee she will change her tune when Mom is buying. LOL!

[terrydtx]

9 minutes ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Trust me, I want her to get the vaccine. I have another daughter in FL, who is signed up to get it (she wants it) and then the CA one is an anti-vaxer. 

CA daughter loves to travel, so if I decide to take the family on a Disney cruise, she can sit home 😉 I guarantee she will change her tune when Mom is buying. LOL!

My 45 year old daughter was an anit-vaxxer until she was diagnosed with breast cancer last summer. After 4 months of chemo she couldn't wait to get her vaccination  because she knew Covid could kill her with the weakened immune system her chemo left her with. My saying to my family is "Get stuck or stay stuck at home". Now all of them want to be vaccinated when their time come s available.

 

BTW she is doing great with her cancer, she was diagnosed with triple negative breast cancer and the Chemo killed it all, she is now doing radiation to kill some suspicious   nodes but it looks like she will fully recover,

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by terrydtx

[TrulyBlonde]

20 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

My 45 year old daughter was an anit-vaxxer until she was diagnosed with breast cancer last summer. After 4 months of chemo she couldn't wait to get her vaccination  because she knew Covid could kill her with the weakened immune system her chemo left her with. My saying to my family is "Get stuck or stay stuck at home". Now all of them want to be vaccinated when their time come s available.

 

BTW she is doing great with her cancer, she was diagnosed with triple negative breast cancer and the Chemo killed it all, she is now doing radiation to kill some suspicious   nodes but it looks like she will fully recover,

 

How come you Texans are not watching Baylor vs Houston? Break time so I am posting 😉