New CDC Order

[hcat]

Not sure this will work out to share

[hcat]

[hcat]

[npcl]

7 minutes ago, hcat said:

Not sure this will work out to share

I would say that even if fully implemented it would not change my opinion about cruising at this stage of the outbreak.

 

It basically presents how they will disinfect surfaces of the ship, but it really does not address the major problem, person to person transmission in closed spaces in side of the ship as they are in close proximity.  Studies indicate that person to person transmission to be more of an issue with COVID that surface contact transmission.  

 

Temperature checks are fairly useless with 40-50% of the cases be asymptomatic. Monitoring needs to involve active random testing, not just monitoring and temperature checks.

 

You could say the steps are necessary, but not sufficient.

Edited August 7, 2020 by npcl

[Fouremco]

6 minutes ago, npcl said:

 

You could say the steps are necessary, but not sufficient.

Good summary. The one thing missing, perhaps purposely, is what the contingency plans are should a passenger or crew member be detected as positive during the cruise.

[mdcelebrity]

59 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Good summary. The one thing missing, perhaps purposely, is what the contingency plans are should a passenger or crew member be detected as positive during the cruise.

Thanks to all who provide reasoned and thoughtful conversation.

This is difficult and emotional issue for many and your understanding & patience for all good-faith points of view are appreciated.

 

There are two overall issues, IMO, in this discussion.

1.  Whether it is worth the risk, healthwise, to cruise.  Any activity is never risk free so it is up to each of us to access the risk, hopefully with objective and vetted data.  It is then up to each of us to evaluate our own perception of risk, our risk tolerance and our perception of benefits (risk/benefit ratio in math. terms).  Frankly, I have little patience for "I don't know how ANYONE could ...", since such decisions are SO personal that I, for one, do not feel comfortable about telling other folks what to do with their life (as long as it does not affect mine).

 

2.  The other issue is, even considering one's willingness to assume health risks, whether there is a real possibility of being quarantined for a long while on the ship, even whilst healthy.  This goes to what Fouremco is getting at.  However, it seems that this is a "solvable" issue with appropriate "contingency plans" among all parties (cruise lines, ports, countries, etc.) and, again frankly, there should be solutions available if all parties agree to discuss and conclude in good faith.

[WNcruiser]

1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

Good summary. The one thing missing, perhaps purposely, is what the contingency plans are should a passenger or crew member be detected as positive during the cruise.

I have read that there will be seperate "isolation cabins" for any passenger or crew that has tested positive or is showing symptoms of COVID. 

 

Of course the next question is how long are you quarantined in there? Until the next port of call where you are disembarked? Until your symptoms are gone? 

[downsmead]

At a push I can live with on board conditions - masks, dining, entertainment. What would be the ‘straw that broke the camels back’ would be only organised shore excursions and not being allowed off unless you participated in one of these. I can appreciate the cruise companies can control these but there endeth my cruising if I cannot do my own thing ashore.

[hcat]

Really interesting comments on things I did not think of,.

 We have to see exactly what Celeb puts in place.....much larger ships, larger passenger and crew numbers even if reduced.. 

 

Makes me nervous but would hate to think  my cruising life is done...

[mnocket]

I was recently asked on another board what my definition of "safe to cruise" was.  Given the direction this discussion has taken, my response may (or may not) be of interest.  Anyway, here it is.....

 

_________________________________________________________________

This is a personal assessment that will vary from individual to individual.  My measure of "safe" is meaningless to others as they will make their own judgement for themselves.  But, since you asked about my definition of "safe" in the context of cruising, here you go......

 

For me, it will safe to resume cruising when:

• Masks are no longer necessary aboard ship
• Social distancing precautions have been lifted.
• Cruises across most lines have been sailing for at least 6 months and...
  • There have been no ship or large scale passenger quarantines in the past 4 months
  • Any onboard COVID cases have been rare and have been effectively responded to such that widespread infection was avoided.
• Port restrictions are lifted
• Onshore (incl tour) restrictions are lifted
• Travel insurance covers COVID infections

Note:  I don't care about CDC approvals or cruise line plans or the availability of a vaccine, these don't ensure safety - I care about a proven track record of results.  If any of the items I've listed do not exist, that indicates to me that cruising is not yet safe (for me).  There will need to be others to blaze the trail in order to establish this track record, and there seem to be many eager to do just that.  I do not judge them for having a different viewpoint of "safe cruising" than I. I wish them well and hope to join them in the future.

[Fouremco]

25 minutes ago, mnocket said:

But, since you asked about my definition of "safe" in the context of cruising, here you go......

I agree with 99% of what you say, but differ on the issue of vaccine availability. For me, that will be a prerequisite.  Of course, that's probably a moot point, as I doubt that we'll achieve all of the requirements you have listed without a vaccine.

[phoenix_dream]

7 hours ago, WNcruiser said:

I have read that there will be seperate "isolation cabins" for any passenger or crew that has tested positive or is showing symptoms of COVID. 

 

Of course the next question is how long are you quarantined in there? Until the next port of call where you are disembarked? Until your symptoms are gone? 

And what type of cabin?  You treat yourself and book a nice suite, get Covid-19 and get quarantined for days in an inside cabin. Ugh!!   Could happen - we won't know until the details are published.  

[bEwAbG]

20 hours ago, mdcelebrity said:

1.  Whether it is worth the risk, healthwise, to cruise.  Any activity is never risk free so it is up to each of us to access the risk, hopefully with objective and vetted data.  It is then up to each of us to evaluate our own perception of risk, our risk tolerance and our perception of benefits (risk/benefit ratio in math. terms).  Frankly, I have little patience for "I don't know how ANYONE could ...", since such decisions are SO personal that I, for one, do not feel comfortable about telling other folks what to do with their life (as long as it does not affect mine).

 

This is a fine point in general, but it does not take into account that "accepting risk" inherently means causing a burden on the rest of society during what is still very much an unpredictable and unprecedented crisis.  Medical caretakers are already overwhelmed and exhausted with treating the population that isn't necessarily actively tempting fate.  The desire to be entertained shouldn't trump everything else that is having to be dealt with during a pandemic.  This is especially true if you're in or planning to go to an area that has a high caseload currently.  Treatments are better now than they were in the beginning, but it is still very much an evolving situation.

[phoenix_dream]

7 minutes ago, bEwAbG said:

 

This is a fine point in general, but it does not take into account that "accepting risk" inherently means causing a burden on the rest of society during what is still very much an unpredictable and unprecedented crisis.  Medical caretakers are already overwhelmed and exhausted with treating the population that isn't necessarily actively tempting fate.  The desire to be entertained shouldn't trump everything else that is having to be dealt with during a pandemic.  This is especially true if you're in or planning to go to an area that has a high caseload currently.  Treatments are better now than they were in the beginning, but it is still very much an evolving situation.

I get your point.  At the same time I don't think accepting risk always inherently causes a burden to the extent you are talking about.  If all main line cruises were to start sailing from Florida now, would agree 100%.  But months from now, when we do have a vaccine as well as (hopefully) better knowledge of treatments, there will still be some level of risk in cruising - in doing anything near other people for that matter.   To me, that is when it is fair to expect people to do their own level of risk evaluation based on their individual circumstances.  Will that place a 'burden' on society even then?  The answer, also to a fine point, is yes.  But how much of a burden and how realistic is it to expect people to not take any risk until the virus goes away, which may in fact be never.  Getting behind the wheel of a car for a drive is a risk which places a burden on others should an accident happen.  Walking down the stairs at your own home places a risk (most falls occur at home) which also places a burden on others should you fall and get injured.  I could go on and on.  Bottom line, at some point in the not-too-distant future cruising (as well as some other 'normal' things) will begin again and the risk to the rest of society may be a reasonable one based on circumstances.

[bEwAbG]

As long as we're talking about CDC orders and still worrying about overwhelming hospitals, then we're not at the point that "taking a risk" is unselfish. 

 

In the future?  I agree that "taking a risk" should mean something different.  You have people in this thread and others saying they'd gladly get on a ship today despite what is going on.

[mdcelebrity]

1 hour ago, phoenix_dream said:

I get your point.  At the same time I don't think accepting risk always inherently causes a burden to the extent you are talking about.  If all main line cruises were to start sailing from Florida now, would agree 100%.  But months from now, when we do have a vaccine as well as (hopefully) better knowledge of treatments, there will still be some level of risk in cruising - in doing anything near other people for that matter.   To me, that is when it is fair to expect people to do their own level of risk evaluation based on their individual circumstances.  Will that place a 'burden' on society even then?  The answer, also to a fine point, is yes.  But how much of a burden and how realistic is it to expect people to not take any risk until the virus goes away, which may in fact be never.  Getting behind the wheel of a car for a drive is a risk which places a burden on others should an accident happen.  Walking down the stairs at your own home places a risk (most falls occur at home) which also places a burden on others should you fall and get injured.  I could go on and on.  Bottom line, at some point in the not-too-distant future cruising (as well as some other 'normal' things) will begin again and the risk to the rest of society may be a reasonable one based on circumstances.

The above posts bring up very good points and the (quite civil) discussion is most appreciated.

The original post (#1) was a response to those who suggest that folks NEVER take risks in such-and-such a situation, based on their own needs.  The point of the burden on others is welcome insight and one we all need to continue to consider (masks, anyone?!).  The quantification of "undue burden" is constantly evolving ... agree that FL departures are NOT a good idea right now, but, hopefully, will be in the future, with proper procedures and citizen cooperation.

 

Regarding risk: a topic that deserves some mention is the risk of the *status quo*:  

 

In regard to business, it is, IMO, rather obvious it is in the economy's interest in general to try and stop the virus spread by with most any means possible.  What is the point of "opening up" just to make your staff and customers ill?  If it were to become bad enough, we would lose the workers that maintain the infrastructure to make anything work (imagine if we lost even a small % of IT workers: what would life be like then), mail/package/food delivery, content providers and of course, public safety and health people, ...

 

The trickier task is to evaluate the effect of the status quo on individuals: physical, mental, financial.  There are certainly significant negative factors to "saying the course".  I would observe that, right now, we still need to have muted contact with anyone, even family (especially out-of-town) and friends.  But ... in the not too distant future, we might need to revisit risk/benefit of having everyone isolated, alone and frustrated.  Not condoning "stupid" in any way, but we need to add current "costs" to any analyses and decisions that are made.

 

These clearly are tricky issues we as individual and as society need get our arms around.  Our best hope is to continue to strive for clear and objective study and, hopefully, effective leadership.  We world citizens (and especially those of us in the USA) are historically more than willing to make needed sacrifices, so no need to lie to us and just foster "happy talk".  Honesty is fine and in the end appreciated.

 

Speaking of appreciation, may I again sincerely thank those who commented above and with other posts for their insights, feeling, concerns, frustrations, hopes, plans.  This dialog -- as it remains respectful --- is quite helpful and important.

Edited August 8, 2020 by mdcelebrity
Grammer.

[npcl]

1 hour ago, phoenix_dream said:

I get your point.  At the same time I don't think accepting risk always inherently causes a burden to the extent you are talking about.  If all main line cruises were to start sailing from Florida now, would agree 100%.  But months from now, when we do have a vaccine as well as (hopefully) better knowledge of treatments, there will still be some level of risk in cruising - in doing anything near other people for that matter.   To me, that is when it is fair to expect people to do their own level of risk evaluation based on their individual circumstances.  Will that place a 'burden' on society even then?  The answer, also to a fine point, is yes.  But how much of a burden and how realistic is it to expect people to not take any risk until the virus goes away, which may in fact be never.  Getting behind the wheel of a car for a drive is a risk which places a burden on others should an accident happen.  Walking down the stairs at your own home places a risk (most falls occur at home) which also places a burden on others should you fall and get injured.  I could go on and on.  Bottom line, at some point in the not-too-distant future cruising (as well as some other 'normal' things) will begin again and the risk to the rest of society may be a reasonable one based on circumstances.

However, society has in those cases you have listed gone to lengths to mitigate the risk, even if the individual was willing to take it.  We have speed limits, driver training, seat belts and air bags, and numerous other items to mitigate the risk when someone chooses to get behind the wheel.  In homes we have building codes, fire alarms, safety requirements on products. As a society we have allocated funds to help provide care for those for which falling is high risk.

 

The actions with the virus are similar.  They are aimed to mitigate risk to others in spite of choices that an individual might make strictly on their own.

 

So where have we as a society not taken action to mitigate the impact and cost to either individuals or society where possible?

 

 

[Ron Don]

On 8/7/2020 at 3:59 PM, mnocket said:

This is a personal assessment that will vary from individual to individual.  My measure of "safe" is meaningless to others as they will make their own judgement for themselves.  But, since you asked about my definition of "safe" in the context of cruising, here you go......

 

For me, it will safe to resume cruising when:

• Masks are no longer necessary aboard ship
• Social distancing precautions have been lifted.
• Cruises across most lines have been sailing for at least 6 months and...
  • There have been no ship or large scale passenger quarantines in the past 4 months
  • Any onboard COVID cases have been rare and have been effectively responded to such that widespread infection was avoided.
• Port restrictions are lifted
• Onshore (incl tour) restrictions are lifted
• Travel insurance covers COVID infections

Note:  I don't care about CDC approvals or cruise line plans or the availability of a vaccine, these don't ensure safety - I care about a proven track record of results.  If any of the items I've listed do not exist, that indicates to me that cruising is not yet safe (for me).  There will need to be others to blaze the trail in order to establish this track record, and there seem to be many eager to do just that.  I do not judge them for having a different viewpoint of "safe cruising" than I. I wish them well and hope to join them in the future.

AMEN!

[Ashland]

How are all of you feeling about a July 30, 2021 cruise sailing ? British Isles out of Amsterdam for us US cruisers.

Are we too optimistic about this date ?

[phoenix_dream]

7 minutes ago, Ashland said:

How are all of you feeling about a July 30, 2021 cruise sailing ? British Isles out of Amsterdam for us US cruisers.

Are we too optimistic about this date ?

I think no one can really have a good sense of that until we see what happens with the vaccinations.  

[Blackduck59]

7 minutes ago, Ashland said:

How are all of you feeling about a July 30, 2021 cruise sailing ? British Isles out of Amsterdam for us US cruisers.

Are we too optimistic about this date ?

 

That depends on what circumstances you are willing to sail under. Also a lot can happen in a year. As far as travel from the United States that is a big question. I don't want to pile on here but the situation is still out of control in the US and it will be a hard slog with many more people getting on board before some measure of lasting success is found.

We in BC are dismayed at the 40-50 cases a day that are being reported here, and hope that we can get that back to where we were before Canada day. Best of luck with your cruise, if it's a low deposit book it you can always cancel before final payment. 

[WNcruiser]

5 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

I think no one can really have a good sense of that until we see what happens with the vaccinations.  

Look at how much has changed in the last 5 months. You are talking a year away. Personally I am optimistic even for a March/April start date but thats just my opinion. 

Of course it would be a Caribbean or Mexican Riviera. I sincerely hope a year from now we will be back to cruising from most international ports. Under what circumstances? Who knows

 

(sorry, i quoted the wrong person) 

Edited August 9, 2020 by WNcruiser

[baldilocks]

What I would like to know from the cruise lines is what are the procedures that will be followed for the following:

 

1. Pre-boarding requirements

2. Procedures to be followed on the ship...masks, social distancing, dining, etc.

3. Testing on board of crew and passengers.

4. If someone on board has tested positive, what happens.

5. If someone on an excursion tests positive, what happens.

 

At present, these exact procedures are unknown to the cruising community. They will be known before we cruise. The question is when? 

 

[Dermotsgirl]

4 minutes ago, baldilocks said:

What I would like to know from the cruise lines is what are the procedures that will be followed for the following:

 

1. Pre-boarding requirements

2. Procedures to be followed on the ship...masks, social distancing, dining, etc.

3. Testing on board of crew and passengers.

4. If someone on board has tested positive, what happens.

5. If someone on an excursion tests positive, what happens.

 

At present, these exact procedures are unknown to the cruising community. They will be known before we cruise. The question is when? 

 

The cruise line I sail with requires the full payment to be made 90 days before the date of sailing. I don’t know how they expect us to make that payment when, as yet, they haven’t told us all the information that you mentioned in your post. If that information isn’t known, it’s buying something blind