Who will still cruise with Princess...I think many in these groups won’t

[voljeep]

34 minutes ago, nbsjcruiser said:

 

Too many potholes. My head hurts just thinking about it. 

cruising has never been for 'everyone' - never has been, never will be ... especially now

 

stay safe

stay hydrated

peace out

[latserrof]

36 minutes ago, voljeep said:

cruising has never been for 'everyone' - never has been, never will be ... especially now

 

 

Now it isn't for anyone, and will likely stay that way for quite a while.  And if/when it returns ... ???

Edited August 17, 2020 by latserrof

[voljeep]

35 minutes ago, latserrof said:

Now it isn't for anyone, and will likely stay that way for quite a while.  And if/when it returns ... ???

there are cruises going on now ... just not Princess ... sorry

 

and cruising will return ... gradually ... like what is going on now in the Med 

 

baby steps 

 

"quite a while" .... 🦄

[donnajo]

Yeah Latserrof, don't speak for me please.

[JimmyVWine]

12 hours ago, caribill said:

As I understand it, there was no passenger spread once the Diamond Princess passengers were confined to their cabins (except for one couple that insisted on mingling on their connecting balcony with the people in the next cabin).

 

All the spreading was done while people interacted before the confinement.

 

I'm not sure we know if this is true, or if it is even knowable.  Certainly, passenger to passenger spread would be reduced significantly if everyone was truly confined to cabins without any outside contact.  But how many people went out on to their balconies and talked to their neighbors out there.  And were passengers allowed to go out onto open decks for limited periods of time, and if so, was there any interaction between passengers then?  How vigilant were the passengers and crew in following instructions?  (Stateside, we see how much resistance there has been to warnings, rules and protective measures.  Were there deniers on board?)  And finally, there is always the possibility of passenger-crew-passenger spread.  Crew comes to cabin to deliver food.  Passenger opens door and greets crew.  Crew then goes to a different cabin to deliver food and is greeted by passenger.  Again, I am not saying that any of this absolutely happened.  But I do not think we know that it didn't.  At the time of the problem on Diamond Princess, we really didn't have a firm understanding of just how unbelievably easy it is to pass this virus from person to person, and the concept of a "super spreader" was unknown.  Seems unlikely to me that the spread ceased completely once confinement was initiated.  But again, I just don't know and am certain that we will never know.

Edited August 17, 2020 by JimmyVWine

[cltnccruisers]

12 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

CCL Corp (and other cruise companies) report that bookings for next year are equal to or ahead of what they had been for this year at this time a year ago.

 

Some of that may be due to folks like us who had never used FCC before.  We took that option with the first cancellation not realizing that the FCC could not be converted to cash if we changed our minds.  So we'll use it to book something in March, 2022, in the hope that things will settle down by then.

[Travlin grrl]

I will definitely cruise again with Princess. I miss it so much right now. But I will probably have a vaccine by then and know it will be different. If I have to wear masks I'm fine with that....especially travelling to other countries.  Just like everything else around us. I will not let this discourage me and change what really makes me happy....travelling. I have great memories and experiences from all my cruises and plan on it again when things resume. 

[voljeep]

13 hours ago, caribill said:

On 8/16/2020 at 8:37 AM, drsel said:

 

In fact I am really looking forward to my next cruise on Princess and planning to book one more also.

just waiting for a big price drop

 

 

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

CCL Corp (and other cruise companies) report that bookings for next year are equal to or ahead of what they had been for this year at this time a year ago.

current cost comparison - cruise fare only - basically same itinerary / cabin type ( BB ) all with Princess Plus

 

11/2020 - cancelled - $ (SKY) - 5 day - great deal

 

4/2021 - if it goes - $ + 35 pp pd (CB) - 6 day - OK deal because of FCC from 11/20 cancelled

 

2/2022 - $ + $85 pp pd  - total increase from 11/2020 (SKY) - 7 day - no deal 

[drsel]

yes the prices are higher for 2021 and still higher for 2022 but just wait for a last minute price drop.

it usually happens 45 to 60 days prior to sailing

 

 

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, nbsjcruiser said:

To add a little more complexity to your excellent post, imagine that those 4 people dropped their cars off at the garage at Port Everglades and hopped the shuttle to the ship with 10 or 15 other people. Now those 10 or 15 other people have been exposed. Might the cruise ship deny them boarding as well? I bet they would.

 

Your post only highlighted to me how difficult it will be to even get people on a ship let alone sail safely. There are waaaaaay too many negative variables that will be impossible to police until there is a working vaccine. Once that happens, it seem obvious to me that the only way a ship can sail safely will be to insist that all potential passengers show proof of inoculation against Covid. Even then, in the US you know someone is going to fight that in court because "freedom" and all. 

 

Too many potholes. My head hurts just thinking about it. 

My state (NY) had both a medical and a religious exemption available for measles shots. And then some counties started to have outbreaks of measles. The legislature passed and the governor signed a law doing away with the religious exemption. And you are absolutely correct that it was challenged in court. The court upheld the law citing the state's interest in public health.

[voljeep]

14 minutes ago, drsel said:

yes the prices are higher for 2021 and still higher for 2022 but just wait for a last minute price drop.

it usually happens 45 to 60 days prior to sailing

 

 

yep - and that's after final payment is due ! 🛳️🦄🌈🤑🍷

[npcl]

2 hours ago, JimmyVWine said:

 

I'm not sure we know if this is true, or if it is even knowable.  Certainly, passenger to passenger spread would be reduced significantly if everyone was truly confined to cabins without any outside contact.  But how many people went out on to their balconies and talked to their neighbors out there.  And were passengers allowed to go out onto open decks for limited periods of time, and if so, was there any interaction between passengers then?  How vigilant were the passengers and crew in following instructions?  (Stateside, we see how much resistance there has been to warnings, rules and protective measures.  Were there deniers on board?)  And finally, there is always the possibility of passenger-crew-passenger spread.  Crew comes to cabin to deliver food.  Passenger opens door and greets crew.  Crew then goes to a different cabin to deliver food and is greeted by passenger.  Again, I am not saying that any of this absolutely happened.  But I do not think we know that it didn't.  At the time of the problem on Diamond Princess, we really didn't have a firm understanding of just how unbelievably easy it is to pass this virus from person to person, and the concept of a "super spreader" was unknown.  Seems unlikely to me that the spread ceased completely once confinement was initiated.  But again, I just don't know and am certain that we will never know.

There was a major in depth study done by the Japanese that did a very thorough and indepth analysis (it was used as a basis for a special broadcast by a Japanese network (NHK( , and english version used to be found on line, though I did a quick check and the link no generates a page not found error).  In that analysis they mapped the cabins of all of those infected, by date of first symptoms and/or date of detection.  In looking at that data they found that there was not any sign of clustering that would have been caused by ventilation transfer cabin to cabin, or by an infected food worker once they were in lock down.  They did find that most (they did not say all) of the passengers were infected prior to lock down, except for those that appear to have gotten infected from their cabin mates, who were infected prior to lock down.

 

As far as the crew went there appear to be some that were infected prior to lock down, but most infections appear to be after lock down due to them still using  facilities (crew dining room for example) without proper distancing, tight shared cabins,  as well as the frequent interactions as close distance while working. The study pointed out that while there were procedures for the crew to follow, there were issues with not properly wearing masks, and with hand sanitation while wearing gloves.  Basically when they first started wearing gloves they counted on them instead of continuing to sanitize the gloves and their hands.  This was improved by giving each of them a bottle of sanitizer attached to their belt with instructions to frequently sanitize their gloves.

Edited August 17, 2020 by npcl

[caribill]

1 hour ago, drsel said:

yes the prices are higher for 2021 and still higher for 2022 but just wait for a last minute price drop.

it usually happens 45 to 60 days prior to sailing

 

 

 

Hard to predict the future about this, but if they sail at a reduced capacity in 2021 to help reduce Covid-19, then there will be even less available for sale after final payment date.

[JimmyVWine]

1 hour ago, npcl said:

There was a major in depth study done by the Japanese that did a very thorough and indepth analysis (it was used as a basis for a special broadcast by a Japanese network (NHK( , and english version used to be found on line, though I did a quick check and the link no generates a page not found error).  In that analysis they mapped the cabins of all of those infected, by date of first symptoms and/or date of detection.  In looking at that data they found that there was not any sign of clustering that would have been caused by ventilation transfer cabin to cabin, or by an infected food worker once they were in lock down.  They did find that most (they did not say all) of the passengers were infected prior to lock down, except for those that appear to have gotten infected from their cabin mates, who were infected prior to lock down.

 

As far as the crew went there appear to be some that were infected prior to lock down, but most infections appear to be after lock down due to them still using  facilities (crew dining room for example) without proper distancing, tight shared cabins,  as well as the frequent interactions as close distance while working. The study pointed out that while there were procedures for the crew to follow, there were issues with not properly wearing masks, and with hand sanitation while wearing gloves.  Basically when they first started wearing gloves they counted on them instead of continuing to sanitize the gloves and their hands.  This was improved by giving each of them a bottle of sanitizer attached to their belt with instructions to frequently sanitize their gloves.

 

Understood, and the analysis certainly tells most of the story.  But the report itself contains the following disclaimer:

"Our estimation method is not without limitations. We cannot rule out the possibility of other infections during later part of the quarantine period due to incomplete data. ... Our predicted data also did not include possible transmission between crew and passengers prior to and during the quarantine period as they come into contact with each other, such as serving meals."

 

No doubt any infections after the quarantine would have been very, very limited.  We know that isolation is the single best deterrent.  I was just pointing out that it cannot be assumed that the post-quarantine infection rate was zero. 

[pink845]

We have cancelled all our cruises with Princess for 2021 and 2022 (also cancelled the ones we had booked for RCCL for both years).  When cruising safely does return, I predict 2023 with an efficient vaccine in play, masks and social distancing (hey, I am so used to this routine in Ontario Canada) that I would feel out of sorts going anywhere without my mask, we will resume cruising.  We will only book last minute cruises and be darn sure that our travel insurance covers us and then and only then will we be back on a ship.  And, I will really miss cruising but that is life.   

[chsalas]

Bye Lori/,  I'll cruse with Princess, unless they do something extremely stupid. 

[suzyed]

22 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Don't hold your breath.

 

CCL Corp (and other cruise companies) report that bookings for next year are equal to or ahead of what they had been for this year at this time a year ago.

 

The Prices are crazy though, as least on Princess!  Way more than previously.  
When I looked at the very same cruise we took this year for next year, it was at least $2000 more!
They are figuring that people are using FCCs so they will "pay" whatever.

[suzyed]

7 hours ago, JimmyVWine said:

 

Understood, and the analysis certainly tells most of the story.  But the report itself contains the following disclaimer:

"Our estimation method is not without limitations. We cannot rule out the possibility of other infections during later part of the quarantine period due to incomplete data. ... Our predicted data also did not include possible transmission between crew and passengers prior to and during the quarantine period as they come into contact with each other, such as serving meals."

 

No doubt any infections after the quarantine would have been very, very limited.  We know that isolation is the single best deterrent.  I was just pointing out that it cannot be assumed that the post-quarantine infection rate was zero. 

Interestingly enough, Princess made no inquiries as to passenger's health after they were disembarked off the Coral. None.  

[npcl]

1 hour ago, suzyed said:

The Prices are crazy though, as least on Princess!  Way more than previously.  
When I looked at the very same cruise we took this year for next year, it was at least $2000 more!
They are figuring that people are using FCCs so they will "pay" whatever.

They really don't have any incentive to drop off absolute high list, until they know what is going to happen and need to run a pricing model.  Once they know what they are doing for a given cruise, you might see prices normalize.

[npcl]

11 minutes ago, suzyed said:

Interestingly enough, Princess made no inquiries as to passenger's health after they were disembarked off the Coral. None.  

All of the cruise lines seem to take the approach that as long as they can get a problem off of the ship, it is no longer their problem.

[Grego]

14 hours ago, npcl said:

There was a major in depth study done by the Japanese that did a very thorough and indepth analysis (it was used as a basis for a special broadcast by a Japanese network (NHK( , and english version used to be found on line, though I did a quick check and the link no generates a page not found error).  In that analysis they mapped the cabins of all of those infected, by date of first symptoms and/or date of detection.  In looking at that data they found that there was not any sign of clustering that would have been caused by ventilation transfer cabin to cabin, or by an infected food worker once they were in lock down.  They did find that most (they did not say all) of the passengers were infected prior to lock down, except for those that appear to have gotten infected from their cabin mates, who were infected prior to lock down.

 

As far as the crew went there appear to be some that were infected prior to lock down, but most infections appear to be after lock down due to them still using  facilities (crew dining room for example) without proper distancing, tight shared cabins,  as well as the frequent interactions as close distance while working. The study pointed out that while there were procedures for the crew to follow, there were issues with not properly wearing masks, and with hand sanitation while wearing gloves.  Basically when they first started wearing gloves they counted on them instead of continuing to sanitize the gloves and their hands.  This was improved by giving each of them a bottle of sanitizer attached to their belt with instructions to frequently sanitize their gloves.

Thanks for report some real information.  I am getting tired of hearing from those that have guesses based upon other's speculation.

[jondfk]

On 8/17/2020 at 9:14 AM, JimmyVWine said:

 

I'm not sure we know if this is true, or if it is even knowable.  Certainly, passenger to passenger spread would be reduced significantly if everyone was truly confined to cabins without any outside contact.  But how many people went out on to their balconies and talked to their neighbors out there.  And were passengers allowed to go out onto open decks for limited periods of time, and if so, was there any interaction between passengers then?  How vigilant were the passengers and crew in following instructions?  (Stateside, we see how much resistance there has been to warnings, rules and protective measures.  Were there deniers on board?)  And finally, there is always the possibility of passenger-crew-passenger spread.  Crew comes to cabin to deliver food.  Passenger opens door and greets crew.  Crew then goes to a different cabin to deliver food and is greeted by passenger.  Again, I am not saying that any of this absolutely happened.  But I do not think we know that it didn't.  At the time of the problem on Diamond Princess, we really didn't have a firm understanding of just how unbelievably easy it is to pass this virus from person to person, and the concept of a "super spreader" was unknown.  Seems unlikely to me that the spread ceased completely once confinement was initiated.  But again, I just don't know and am certain that we will never know.

 

I'm unqualified to comment on Diamond but will share some facts from the Grand voyage of February 21st which landed us at Travis.

 

- One thing I haven't seen reported anywhere is the fact that the ship was restricted to indoors only hours after we departed Hilo. Effectively this meant most passengers were closely congregating in the bars, lounges and showrooms indoors for 3+ days days before the lockdown started.  It is (IMHO) highly likely that some spread occurred during that period since folks were shoulder to shoulder all over the ship for many hours at a time.  We didn't like the look of that, not because of COVID, just because of cold & flu season so we "self isolated" for most of those 3 days aside from one lecture and mealtimes.

- Once the lockdown started (Thursday, after lunch) Princess initially attempted to keep meals "normal".  Meaning they provided menus and offered choices of starter, entree & dessert for every cabin.  This resulted in meals being delivered many hours late.  Breakfast at 11AM, lunch at 6PM, dinner at midnight.  Many / many / many folks were conscripted to deliver meals probably not a great choice for limiting spread.  Meals were handed off directly from staff to passenger.  

-  After a day or two of this they vastly simplified menus.  Just two choices for mains.  Everything else was fixed.  Service times improved somewhat, trays were left outside the door with a knock to announce food delivery.  No direct handoff.

-  Once we tied up in Oakland food prep was handed off to World Fresh Kitchen (mostly).  From that point onwards food was delivered in paper bags left at the door with a knock.  No choices of meals, but enough variety that we never went hungry.

 

Other non-food related points.

-  We didn't have a balcony.  Folks without one were offered a single opportunity to go on deck on Saturday afternoon as we sailed in circles off of San Francisco.  We were given 10 minutes notice of the opportunity which lasted for 30 minutes.  We were allowed on Promenade deck, moving in a clockwise direction, spaced 30 feet apart, wearing a paper mask.  If you went out, you had to stay for the entire 30 minutes since you were escorted from and to your cabins by Princess staff.  No elevators, stairways only.  I understand those without balconies on higher decks were taken to pool decks in a similar fashion.

-  For the record we were provided a "surgical" mask shortly after confinement to cabin, I can't recall if it was day 2 or 3.  The resupply boat that brought some essentials and medicines delivered mask for every passenger.  Whether folks wore these on their balconies or not, I do not know.  We were required to wear them to pick up food trays (or bags) or any other time we opened our door.  Stewards and service folks were told to back away from us if we forgot to put our masks on.  This protocol carried on to Travis where we received fresh masks - initially surgical but ultimately N95.  We were required to wear masks anytime we opened our door for health check or food delivery.

-  Probably the closest contact we experienced with anyone over those 9 days (3+ of "self confinement" and 5 of ordered confinement) was on the bus for the 45 minute drive to Travis.  The closest contact of all was on the parked bus waiting to be processed into Travis housing which had us (near the back of the bus) sitting for nearly two hours as they took folks off by cabin in 2's and 3's.

 

This has been a long post but I'm happy to answer further questions about Grand from an actual passenger's perspective.  I've left out most comments about Travis but would be happy to answer questions about that too if anyone has anything they want to know.  Additionally, while I've described the changes in service over they days of confinement I've held back my opinions (mostly) if you want these you'll have to ask explicitly.

 

For the record, we look forward to sailing again including with Princess.  However, we'll likely not book a non-balcony cabin again, however nice or good value it might be.  Having spent 9 days locked inside is not an experience I'd suggest or care to repeat.  

[suzyed]

56 minutes ago, jondfk said:

 

I'm unqualified to comment on Diamond but will share some facts from the Grand voyage of February 21st which landed us at Travis.

 

- One thing I haven't seen reported anywhere is the fact that the ship was restricted to indoors only hours after we departed Hilo. Effectively this meant most passengers were closely congregating in the bars, lounges and showrooms indoors for 3+ days days before the lockdown started.  It is (IMHO) highly likely that some spread occurred during that period since folks were shoulder to shoulder all over the ship for many hours at a time.  We didn't like the look of that, not because of COVID, just because of cold & flu season so we "self isolated" for most of those 3 days aside from one lecture and mealtimes.

- Once the lockdown started (Thursday, after lunch) Princess initially attempted to keep meals "normal".  Meaning they provided menus and offered choices of starter, entree & dessert for every cabin.  This resulted in meals being delivered many hours late.  Breakfast at 11AM, lunch at 6PM, dinner at midnight.  Many / many / many folks were conscripted to deliver meals probably not a great choice for limiting spread.  Meals were handed off directly from staff to passenger.  

-  After a day or two of this they vastly simplified menus.  Just two choices for mains.  Everything else was fixed.  Service times improved somewhat, trays were left outside the door with a knock to announce food delivery.  No direct handoff.

-  Once we tied up in Oakland food prep was handed off to World Fresh Kitchen (mostly).  From that point onwards food was delivered in paper bags left at the door with a knock.  No choices of meals, but enough variety that we never went hungry.

 

Other non-food related points.

-  We didn't have a balcony.  Folks without one were offered a single opportunity to go on deck on Saturday afternoon as we sailed in circles off of San Francisco.  We were given 10 minutes notice of the opportunity which lasted for 30 minutes.  We were allowed on Promenade deck, moving in a clockwise direction, spaced 30 feet apart, wearing a paper mask.  If you went out, you had to stay for the entire 30 minutes since you were escorted from and to your cabins by Princess staff.  No elevators, stairways only.  I understand those without balconies on higher decks were taken to pool decks in a similar fashion.

-  For the record we were provided a "surgical" mask shortly after confinement to cabin, I can't recall if it was day 2 or 3.  The resupply boat that brought some essentials and medicines delivered mask for every passenger.  Whether folks wore these on their balconies or not, I do not know.  We were required to wear them to pick up food trays (or bags) or any other time we opened our door.  Stewards and service folks were told to back away from us if we forgot to put our masks on.  This protocol carried on to Travis where we received fresh masks - initially surgical but ultimately N95.  We were required to wear masks anytime we opened our door for health check or food delivery.

-  Probably the closest contact we experienced with anyone over those 9 days (3+ of "self confinement" and 5 of ordered confinement) was on the bus for the 45 minute drive to Travis.  The closest contact of all was on the parked bus waiting to be processed into Travis housing which had us (near the back of the bus) sitting for nearly two hours as they took folks off by cabin in 2's and 3's.

 

This has been a long post but I'm happy to answer further questions about Grand from an actual passenger's perspective.  I've left out most comments about Travis but would be happy to answer questions about that too if anyone has anything they want to know.  Additionally, while I've described the changes in service over they days of confinement I've held back my opinions (mostly) if you want these you'll have to ask explicitly.

 

For the record, we look forward to sailing again including with Princess.  However, we'll likely not book a non-balcony cabin again, however nice or good value it might be.  Having spent 9 days locked inside is not an experience I'd suggest or care to repeat.  

There were a great deal of similarities to the Grand while we were on the Coral 3/5/20 sailing.   Agree that things started looking dodgy even a week into the sailing.  One lady we know, came on the ship with a terrible cough, but kept chalking it up to a "cold" she got from her son-in-law.  Some of our group were playing trivia, cards and mahjong with this person and I even shared some of my perscription cough medicine with her (which I brought with us since it seems many cruises lately have a cough crop up during the sailing).  After a bit, we started wearing gloves while playing with her and then I just bowed out of the games as did DH and another friend.  I have asthma and our friend has some medical issues so we didn't want to be continually coughed on by this other lady.  Now did she JUST have a cough? Or did she have covid-19?  I think the latter rather than the former.  Even our server in the main dining room suddenly disappeared and we never saw him again....he was sick. 
The crew of the Coral did a wondeful job cleaning and sanitizing and encouraging handwashing but in the end I guess it was not enough? 
So where did it come from?  Who knows for sure?  People coming on with "just a cough"...people who didn't make their flights in BA and came back to the ship after sitting on busses for hours and/or sitting in the airport for hours. 
And then word came that we had Corona on the ship.
We were then sent to our cabins for the duration.
Anyone who did not have a balcony prior to "confinement" was moved to a cabin with a balcony. I don't recall seeing anyone on their balcony smoking or getting too close to their neighbors, at least from our view on Baja deck.  
The food service sounds pretty similar to what we experienced. We were told to wear masks to answer the door.  We emptied our own trash and put the bags outside the door along with any linens that we wanted replaced.  Laundry was also put in the provided bags for processing and returned in about 2 days.  They delivered bottles of water once or twice a day.
Prior to confinement but after the pause was announced and we were stuck on the ship going forward, they took orders for medications.  Many were originally due to disembark in Buenos Aires and many were able to do so. We were on until FLL, so as advised, we brought an extra 2 week supply beyond what we needed for the 32 day sailing., but those who were only doing the first 14 days apparently only had enough meds for that period of time so it was good that Princess provided additional supplies for them.
So after a few day, we learned that 2 passengers had passed away and learn that one disembarked in Barbados also passed away.  I have heard that 6 more have since passed away. 
We live in Florida so when we FINALLY got to Miami (yes, Miami) after being turned away from the various countries, We were transported home in a van with 3 other couples. We had to wear gloves and masks all the way home. We left the ship at 6pm on 4/5 (to claps and cheers by the other cruisers out on their balconies) and arrived home at 2am 4/6.  They took us right to our door!  We've lived in Florida for 24 years but that night we saw parts of Florida we didn't even know existed!  LOL!  
Well DH started feeling ill in the van and I a few days later.  There is so much more I can share about our treatment and the outcomes and even how we were on the ship but as the previous poster stated, we would be happy to answer any other questions you may have.

[caligirlfashionista]

I will 🥳🥳🥳

[stracpat]

I will NEVER cruise with Princess again - they have been horrific!

Our cruise was first or maybe second cruise cancelled in February, the evening before we were due to sail from Singapore. 

We were told so many things that we could claim back that evening and were assured we would get it all back if we just submitted a claim to them. Other than that we were left to our own devices to figure out our way back to the UK.

Here we are in August still trying to get reimbursed for our flight change fee and additional night in the hotel - initially we were told we could claim all our flights and hotel but no, that was rejected when we got home. We are now 1000s out of pocket 😡 and getting blood out of a stone would be easier than getting a response from anyone in the whole of Princess.

We have our cruise credit which runs out in February - no extension granted there despite it only being usable for maybe two months at most. So we do have a cruise booked as late as we could but after that Princess do not exist to us.

 

We are a young couple - I will be 30 in October and did have a Princess cruise booked for it which has also been cancelled. You would think Princess would be trying to keep this part of the market as older passengers will understandably be cautious about coming back.

If they continue they will run themselves into the ground as both Celebrity and Royal Caribbean are way more appealing to the younger crowd!

Edited August 20, 2020 by stracpat
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