I wonder how long they really can last?

[grandgeezer]

30 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

That's only your opinion and you're entitled to it. I would argue that the cruise lines are very much essential to the lives of their employees. Do you have any idea how many families rely on the income that crew members earn and send back home? Are their lives worth less than those of airline employees?

 

That statement could apply to every person, every job.

Besides, if the employees are US citizens, they are eligible for unemployment checks, and other government assistances. Hopefully the other countries offer similar benefits.

On the lines themselves, let them go to the country where they flagged, in the case, I think, for RCL that would be Liberia.

[DCGuy64]

8 minutes ago, grandgeezer said:

 

That statement could apply to every person, every job.

Besides, if the employees are US citizens, they are eligible for unemployment checks, and other government assistances. Hopefully the other countries offer similar benefits.

On the lines themselves, let them go to the country where they flagged, in the case, I think, for RCL that would be Liberia.

Sorry, but no. The crew members I have met largely come from countries with much lower standards of living than in the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, NZ, etc. This income is all they have, in some cases. Many of them hate having to spend 12-18 months away from their families, but it's worth it because of the financial reward that helps them sustain their families. This is an essential industry, full stop. All tourism is essential, whether domestic or international. But while many industries have received financial assistance from the US government, cruising has not. You don't have to agree with me but I am not changing my mind on this.

[grandgeezer]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

Sorry, but no. The crew members I have met largely come from countries with much lower standards of living than in the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, NZ, etc. This income is all they have, in some cases. Many of them hate having to spend 12-18 months away from their families, but it's worth it because of the financial reward that helps them sustain their families. This is an essential industry, full stop. All tourism is essential, whether domestic or international. But while many industries have received financial assistance from the US government, cruising has not. You don't have to agree with me but I am not changing my mind on this.

 

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind, just stating the facts, as I know them, and beliefs. First of all, charity begins at home, you'd have to be blind and deaf if you can't see the hardships being caused in your own country. When, and if, this get under control, then maybe spread the wealth.

Secondly, these cruise lines made a conscious decision to be flagged in a foreign country and not the US. As I understand it the main reasons to skirt much of the labor laws including pay and hours worked. Paying little to no taxes (the corporation not the employees) was a big plus also.  Someone once said, "If you choose the behavior, you also choose the consequences". They did, and they should. Now if they want to pay all the back taxes and the back pay to all the employees they underpaid, then maybe they should be helped out.

Lastly, cruising, and all tourism is essential, you can't be serious. If it was, they would have a lot more passengers than they have know, probably hundreds of millions worldwide. The only people who complain about not cruising are the employees and the died heart cruisers that can't seem to have a life without it. The other billions of people couldn't care less if it restarts or not.

[DCGuy64]

18 minutes ago, grandgeezer said:

 

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind, just stating the facts, as I know them, and beliefs. First of all, charity begins at home, you'd have to be blind and deaf if you can't see the hardships being caused in your own country. When, and if, this get under control, then maybe spread the wealth.

Secondly, these cruise lines made a conscious decision to be flagged in a foreign country and not the US. As I understand it the main reasons to skirt much of the labor laws including pay and hours worked. Paying little to no taxes (the corporation not the employees) was a big plus also.  Someone once said, "If you choose the behavior, you also choose the consequences". They did, and they should. Now if they want to pay all the back taxes and the back pay to all the employees they underpaid, then maybe they should be helped out.

Lastly, cruising, and all tourism is essential, you can't be serious. If it was, they would have a lot more passengers than they have know, probably hundreds of millions worldwide. The only people who complain about not cruising are the employees and the died heart cruisers that can't seem to have a life without it. The other billions of people couldn't care less if it restarts or not.

I consider myself to be a casual cruiser, not an expert on maritime history. If I had to hazard a guess (and that's all it would be, a guess), I'd say there were many factors at play which determines why passengers vessels are registered offshore instead of in the US (or Europe, for that matter). Tax laws come to mind, for instance. What I've noted in my travels is that very few crew members I've seen are from the United States. It's possible that cruise lines could opt to register in the US, but then, as you suggest, they'd be subject to US labor and wage laws. Which means that instead of scoring that balcony cabin for a 7-day cruise for only $1,000 pp, you'd pay much more, maybe $2,000 or even higher. Well, there goes the mass market for cruising, and the industry has to consolidate because now only the super rich can afford it. Again, this is just speculation on my part. But as you said, "if you choose the behavior, you choose the consequences." I agree, which is why I want the industry to be both affordable AND profitable. Neither of which it would be if they had to be US-flagged, so no thanks. And yes, all tourism is essential. Absolutely it is. Every time you leave your house to sleep and eat, you're contributing to the tourism sector. What's more, countries all over the world depend on tourism. Have a great day, and thanks for the chat!

[yogimax]

4 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

That's only your opinion and you're entitled to it. I would argue that the cruise lines are very much essential to the lives of their employees. Do you have any idea how many families rely on the income that crew members earn and send back home? Are their lives worth less than those of airline employees?

Of course, by that definition every industry and company is essential.

 

That is not, however, the accepted definition of an essential industry.  Here's a definition from the Cambridge Dictionary...

 

"an industry that is considered necessary for a nation's economy and that may be protected or supported by the government:"

 

Cruising is NOT necessary for the nation's economy.  Airlines are.

[ReneeFLL]

6 hours ago, TheMastodon said:

Yea & ask anyone who has a real job if they would prefer zoom or face to face interaction.

 

 

I would love to see hubby doing his job by zoom!  🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[ReneeFLL]

On 10/8/2020 at 5:52 AM, TheMastodon said:

I don’t believe cruise companies should get bailouts.  

 

Every business is essential.

Totally agree.

 

6 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

That's only your opinion and you're entitled to it. I would argue that the cruise lines are very much essential to the lives of their employees. Do you have any idea how many families rely on the income that crew members earn and send back home? Are their lives worth less than those of airline employees?

Every company is essential to the lives of the employees. Why should we support employees from other countries? What about supporting people in our own back yard? I have always believed we should do more of this before handing out money to others. Want your taxes to go up even more? It’s sad that those employees are in the position they’re in, but it could have been worse. What if they had never worked for a cruise line and always had a local job instead? 

[xDisconnections]

7 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

That's only your opinion and you're entitled to it. I would argue that the cruise lines are very much essential to the lives of their employees. Do you have any idea how many families rely on the income that crew members earn and send back home? Are their lives worth less than those of airline employees?

 

7 hours ago, grandgeezer said:

 

That statement could apply to every person, every job.

Besides, if the employees are US citizens, they are eligible for unemployment checks, and other government assistances. Hopefully the other countries offer similar benefits.

On the lines themselves, let them go to the country where they flagged, in the case, I think, for RCL that would be Liberia.

 

6 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Sorry, but no. The crew members I have met largely come from countries with much lower standards of living than in the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, NZ, etc. This income is all they have, in some cases. Many of them hate having to spend 12-18 months away from their families, but it's worth it because of the financial reward that helps them sustain their families. This is an essential industry, full stop. All tourism is essential, whether domestic or international. But while many industries have received financial assistance from the US government, cruising has not. You don't have to agree with me but I am not changing my mind on this.

@DCGuy64 thanks for sharing your feedback and opinion regarding the cruise lines acting as an essential business and deserving of a government bailout.
 

Respectfully, I must disagree with you as your reasoning would suggest every business is essential. I’m having trouble understanding why you believe we should show concern for those currently out of work in other nations due to the No Sail Order. Although it is very sad to see the loss of talented individuals, we must remember these cruise lines are incorporated in countries such as Liberia and Panama for tax purposes and to avoid certain labor laws. By no means should our government provide a bailout to the cruise industry despite it supporting many industries in the same sector of hospitality. As a Floridian located near several major ports and being involved in an industry directly impacted by cruising, I still cannot find a justification.

 

I also don’t understand why we should be concerned for those cruise employees currently out of work as you keep referencing their paycheck. In the United States, we had seen record layoffs through many different industries and tons of businesses closing. Many of these crew members do very little to contribute to our personal economy and there are alternate options available. Perhaps they can reach out to their government for assistance, the governments of the countries their employers are incorporated in, the company that pays their bills to see if they have some type of crew assistance program, or potentially seek an alternate opportunity until they are able to safely return to cruising.

 

You mentioned the standards of living are different in these countries. I agree — they are. It’s also clear that many of these crew members are living among the top percentages in their home countries and sometimes are surpassing the incomes of doctors, lawyers or other high paid professionals. Despite their voluntary employment and them being aware of the estimated time away from home, you cannot buy into the poverty you are told from some associates and worse, those on message boards such as this. It’s a hustle but being close on a personal level to some crew members, you can see many luxuries that are unexpected from what you’re told such as owning large houses, several vehicles, exotic vacations and endless merchandise and experiences in the Far East.

 

I’m not asking you to change your wrong opinion about cruising being essential but I hope you keep in mind that it’s not as important as you think. And many wouldn’t care if it never comes back. It’s a luxury.

[deliver42]

Do the people here have any idea of how many Americans have been affected by not cruising? Dock workers, travel industry workers, City workers where there are ports, Restaurant workers, hotel workers, vendors, food company workers. Thousands of people employed by these  entities have been unemployed since last March. These are people that live here, are citizens here, and pay taxes here. I guess they don' count to the people that argue against restarting because the cruise lines don't pay taxes here.

[Baron Barracuda]

4 hours ago, deliver42 said:

Do the people here have any idea of how many Americans have been affected by not cruising? Dock workers, travel industry workers, City workers where there are ports, Restaurant workers, hotel workers, vendors, food company workers. Thousands of people employed by these  entities have been unemployed since last March. These are people that live here, are citizens here, and pay taxes here. I guess they don' count to the people that argue against restarting because the cruise lines don't pay taxes here.

Believe you are conflating two issues here.  Haven't heard anyone say they shouldn't re-start because they don't pay US taxes.  Have heard (and agree) that US taxpayers shouldn't bail out foreign flagged cruise ships with non-US crew, especially when so many US companies with US workers have not received a bailout.  Have also heard (and agree) that they shouldn't re-start because they haven't submitted a comprehensive plan showing they can sail safely.  CLIA proposal is an overview lacking needed detail.

[grandgeezer]

5 hours ago, deliver42 said:

Do the people here have any idea of how many Americans have been affected by not cruising? Dock workers, travel industry workers, City workers where there are ports, Restaurant workers, hotel workers, vendors, food company workers. Thousands of people employed by these  entities have been unemployed since last March. These are people that live here, are citizens here, and pay taxes here. I guess they don' count to the people that argue against restarting because the cruise lines don't pay taxes here.

That is just a drop in the bucket compared to everybody else affected by this pandemic, worldwide.

I don't remember anybody saying cruise lines shouldn't start because the lines don't pay taxes here. What I do hear is the US shouldn't give them aid because they don't pay taxes here. They brought that on themselves when they decided to be flagged in Liberia so they could skirt the US laws that determine minimum wage, hour worked, and other laws that protect the workers. Their employees who are citizens and pay taxes here do get the stimulus money and other aid, if qualified.

[livingonthebeach]

Not saying the cruise industry shouldn’t reap what they sow, but there is more to the situation than just the foreign employees and the cruise lines that employ them.

 

As for the economic impact on Florida alone, losses due to the lack of tourism from the cruise industry have amounted to 3.2 billion and 49,000 local jobs have been lost.

 

While this might be a drop in the bucket compared to the situation worldwide, it is significant to Florida.  This is not counting the lost revenue to airlines, hotels, restaurants, museums, car rentals, tourist attractions, etc.  Much of Florida depends on tourism and for Florida tourism is a major industry which is considered essential here.  
 

The Caribbean, Mexico, Alaska and other US port cities have suffered losses that are significant as well.

 

 

https://en.mercopress.com/2020/09/28/us-federal-maritime-commissioner-report-on-the-staggering-losses-of-the-cruise-industry-and-florida

[xDisconnections]

13 hours ago, deliver42 said:

Do the people here have any idea of how many Americans have been affected by not cruising? Dock workers, travel industry workers, City workers where there are ports, Restaurant workers, hotel workers, vendors, food company workers. Thousands of people employed by these  entities have been unemployed since last March. These are people that live here, are citizens here, and pay taxes here. I guess they don' count to the people that argue against restarting because the cruise lines don't pay taxes here.

 

7 hours ago, livingonthebeach said:

Not saying the cruise industry shouldn’t reap what they sow, but there is more to the situation than just the foreign employees and the cruise lines that employ them.

 

As for the economic impact on Florida alone, losses due to the lack of tourism from the cruise industry have amounted to 3.2 billion and 49,000 local jobs have been lost.

 

While this might be a drop in the bucket compared to the situation worldwide, it is significant to Florida.  This is not counting the lost revenue to airlines, hotels, restaurants, museums, car rentals, tourist attractions, etc.  Much of Florida depends on tourism and for Florida tourism is a major industry which is considered essential here.  
 

The Caribbean, Mexico, Alaska and other US port cities have suffered losses that are significant as well.

 

 

https://en.mercopress.com/2020/09/28/us-federal-maritime-commissioner-report-on-the-staggering-losses-of-the-cruise-industry-and-florida

Believe me -- my industry is directly impacted by the future of cruising and I still cannot find justification for a bailout or an accelerated return to cruising. My market segment is located minutes from Port Everglades.

Edited October 11, 2020 by xDisconnections

[deliver42]

My post has nothing to do with a bailout, but a restart.

[livingonthebeach]

9 hours ago, xDisconnections said:

 

Believe me -- my industry is directly impacted by the future of cruising and I still cannot find justification for a bailout or an accelerated return to cruising. My market segment is located minutes from Port Everglades.

 

I agree to no government bailouts but a staggered, responsible, safe return of sailing like they are doing in Europe and Asia, seems like a good  compromise for those involved in the industry. 

[joelheather]

On 10/7/2020 at 11:57 AM, firefly333 said:

Why not post this on the bankruptcy depressing thread. Now 2 threads to ignore about same thing. Why start a new thread about same subject on another thread.

 

I'm ready for some positive vibes not doom and gloomers.. ignore going forward. Dont bother to reply to me.

Someone is not facing reality well. I think you need a HUG🤗.  Face it, we are all screwed...

[joelheather]

On 10/7/2020 at 12:08 PM, time4u2go said:

Good question.  I've been wondering that also.  Also wondering if there's any mergers/acquisitions on the horizon.

No one will be acquiring anyone. Who has the $$$. NCL is the wildcard here.  They had tremendous debt before covid hit.  They are in a bad position for a hostile takeover.  RCI is on the top of my list to do that.

 

[Ashland]

3 hours ago, joelheather said:

No one will be acquiring anyone. Who has the $$$. NCL is the wildcard here.  They had tremendous debt before covid hit.  They are in a bad position for a hostile takeover.  RCI is on the top of my list to do that.

 

When I mentioned RCI taking over NCL...wow was I told no way....So you're agreeing that could be a possibility ?

[Baron Barracuda]

11 hours ago, Ashland said:

When I mentioned RCI taking over NCL...wow was I told no way....So you're agreeing that could be a possibility ?

Even if Royal wasn't cash starved themselves why would they do this?   Unless Covid magically disappears recovery for the cruise industry will be a long, slow process.   CCL recognizing this is divesting 18 ships.  It's been speculated on these boards that X and Royal might similarly dispose of their older, smaller vessels.  Regent and Oceania might have some attraction  but why add another mass market  brand like Norwegian?

[not-enough-cruising]

On 10/10/2020 at 9:32 PM, xDisconnections said:

 

Believe me -- my industry is directly impacted by the future of cruising and I still cannot find justification for a bailout or an accelerated return to cruising. My market segment is located minutes from Port Everglades.

No one has asked for a bailout, and before one can discuss “accelerated” return there first needs to be a return. 

[xDisconnections]

2 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

No one has asked for a bailout, and before one can discuss “accelerated” return there first needs to be a return. 

A previous poster discussed a bailout.

[Ashland]

4 hours ago, Baron Barracuda said:

Even if Royal wasn't cash starved themselves why would they do this?   Unless Covid magically disappears recovery for the cruise industry will be a long, slow process.   CCL recognizing this is divesting 18 ships.  It's been speculated on these boards that X and Royal might similarly dispose of their older, smaller vessels.  Regent and Oceania might have some attraction  but why add another mass market  brand like Norwegian?

My keyword here was "possibility"...anything is possible...we'll wait and see 

[DCGuy64]

On 10/10/2020 at 8:44 AM, deliver42 said:

Do the people here have any idea of how many Americans have been affected by not cruising? Dock workers, travel industry workers, City workers where there are ports, Restaurant workers, hotel workers, vendors, food company workers. Thousands of people employed by these  entities have been unemployed since last March. These are people that live here, are citizens here, and pay taxes here. I guess they don' count to the people that argue against restarting because the cruise lines don't pay taxes here.

Exactly. It's sad, but apparently a lot of my fellow cruisers have nothing but contempt for both the cruise lines and their employees. I guess we should say goodbye to them, then, since they have no business commenting on this site. After all, why would they want to comment on an industry that is just a bunch of greedy foreigners and their "living high on the hog" crewmembers? FYI to all those saying cruising doesn't matter (apparently that also means it's okay if they all go bust), it certainly matters to the state of Florida. They derive some $53 BILLION dollars annually from the cruising industry. That isn't going to "foreigners," which is in itself a rather ignorant and xenophobic thing to say.

[radarcruiser]

The issuance of common stock and convertible notes announced today should afford another 4-6 months of capital at the reduced burn rates.  Of course it further dilutes our shareholder value.

[DCGuy64]

On 10/9/2020 at 8:03 PM, xDisconnections said:

 

 

@DCGuy64 thanks for sharing your feedback and opinion regarding the cruise lines acting as an essential business and deserving of a government bailout.
 

Respectfully, I must disagree with you as your reasoning would suggest every business is essential. I’m having trouble understanding why you believe we should show concern for those currently out of work in other nations due to the No Sail Order. Although it is very sad to see the loss of talented individuals, we must remember these cruise lines are incorporated in countries such as Liberia and Panama for tax purposes and to avoid certain labor laws. By no means should our government provide a bailout to the cruise industry despite it supporting many industries in the same sector of hospitality. As a Floridian located near several major ports and being involved in an industry directly impacted by cruising, I still cannot find a justification.

 

I also don’t understand why we should be concerned for those cruise employees currently out of work as you keep referencing their paycheck. In the United States, we had seen record layoffs through many different industries and tons of businesses closing. Many of these crew members do very little to contribute to our personal economy and there are alternate options available. Perhaps they can reach out to their government for assistance, the governments of the countries their employers are incorporated in, the company that pays their bills to see if they have some type of crew assistance program, or potentially seek an alternate opportunity until they are able to safely return to cruising.

 

You mentioned the standards of living are different in these countries. I agree — they are. It’s also clear that many of these crew members are living among the top percentages in their home countries and sometimes are surpassing the incomes of doctors, lawyers or other high paid professionals. Despite their voluntary employment and them being aware of the estimated time away from home, you cannot buy into the poverty you are told from some associates and worse, those on message boards such as this. It’s a hustle but being close on a personal level to some crew members, you can see many luxuries that are unexpected from what you’re told such as owning large houses, several vehicles, exotic vacations and endless merchandise and experiences in the Far East.

 

I’m not asking you to change your wrong opinion about cruising being essential but I hope you keep in mind that it’s not as important as you think. And many wouldn’t care if it never comes back. It’s a luxury.

Speak for yourself. Travel is not a luxury for me. It's the most important way I learn about the world I live in and it's the #1 way I am able to keep up with the languages I've studied. It may be just a luxury for you, but not for me.

Thanks.