Carnival needs Judge approval to Sail

[PhillyFan33579]

6 hours ago, Organized Chaos said:

Best case scenario, cruise lines get to resume in December. And we don't need the "no they won't" comments from the usual suspects. I said best case scenario. For the judge to hit them with this now, when they're closer than ever to resuming operations, I think that's just low. Their legal troubles should be kept completely separate from the shutdown, which is something they had zero control over.

So if someone robbed a bank because they needed money to survive because they lost their job thru no fault of their own due to this pandemic, law enforcement should look the other way? That is basically what you are saying, that the judge should ignore Carnival’s failure to comply with environmental laws.
 

Personally I think the CDC has treated the cruise lines unfairly during this pandemic. But Carnival has no one to blame but themselves for their long history of failing to comply with environmental laws and for their continued refusal to comply with court directed actions resulting from their illegal activities. 

[bigrednole]

22 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

Do you know that for a fact?

A Federal Judge shutting down a business beyond what Covid has done is fairly straight forward and factual. Any misconduct in this type of ruling or decision could be looked on as liable. For a multi-$B company, I don't think she decided lightly. All we can do is wait and see. I am going to have to take more lumps tomorrow and sell the stock. Once this is widely known, I expect CCL to drop at least 10%. Its one thing being locked down because of Covid, it is completely different when you can't bring a ship into US waters because of environmental failures that you failed to meet during probation and plead guilty to violating.

[DaCruiseBug]

I feel bad for the cruise industry and everything else going on but i'm glad that finally a corporation is being held accountable for their actions (or inactions). Enough is enough. If you can't follow the laws of our country then you can't operate here. I hope the judge makes the 60 day requirement stick and I hope that a circuit court doesn't succumb to pressure and overturn it.

[Earthworm Jim]

On 10/17/2020 at 11:46 AM, BlerkOne said:

Not at all. Carnival has known and failed to comply. But the judge did delay her ruling for 24 hours to let Carnival respond.

 

I haven't heard anything one way or the other as to whether the 24 hour delay changed anything. I'm guessing that means it didn't. Unless they don't make any announcements of such things on weekends, which is possible I guess.

[Arizona Wildcat]

On 10/17/2020 at 7:59 AM, chengkp75 said:

I believe their role is more of "interested party" than "class of victims".  They are not seeking damages from Carnival, just wishing to see that justice is done for themselves.

It appears that the plaintiffs sued some years ago with the remedy being Carnival would comply with all environmental laws.  Carnival was pit on probation with part of that probation being subject to auditors checking for compliance.  Carnival was found not in compliance with the original decree more than once.  Thus the judge questioning why action was apparently not taken during a 7 month shut down to address the 700+ items.

Seems reasonable and probably a kick in the head for Mr. Donald.  This would mean no cruises from the US till mid December.  Probably makes little difference today with COVID cases spiking and the Costa problem - BUT!!! This would mean a resumption date would continue to be always 60 days into the future until all items are addressed AND verified as complete if I understand the order correctly.  Thus if all checked off the list on December 10th would mean early February resumption.

[Arizona Wildcat]

Go back and read the Federal Register.  Carnival was guilty of a bunch of environmental violations and put on probation.  The followup record shows the auditors found continued non compliance.  This case began YEARS ago. Carnival could and should have taken actions to fix things.

[nocl]

On 10/17/2020 at 1:07 PM, Organized Chaos said:

When their court troubles were headline cruise news, I fully supported the government in their actions against Carnival Corp. Not only had they violated laws & regulations for years, they continued to do so while on probation, so I was quite vocal in support of throwing the book at them. I lead with that just in case I'm accused of being a cheerleader for what I'm saying next.

 

So with that said, I completely disagree with the judge's decision to tie those matters to the pandemic shutdown. Cruise lines didn't ask for this, never could've predicted it, and certainly weren't expecting to be shut down for several months. Essentially, in my opinion, the judge is kicking Carnival Corp. while they're down, and they don't deserve that. Yes, they deserve to answer for and pay for their long-time violations, but I think it's dirty pool to force them to be in complete & total compliance before being allowed to start up again after a shutdown they had no control over. If the pandemic had never happened, chances were good that the judge would've allowed them to meet compliance while they remained in operation. To take an opposite approach now is a low blow, if you ask me.

 

The third-party auditors said that some of their ships have as many as 700 maintenance items that need to be addressed. Obviously, none of us know the extent of all those items, but I would think it's safe to say that some would require more extensive work. Not necessarily dry dock, but possibly a shipyard. If that's the case, it wasn't possible for Carnival Corp. to accomplish some of those goals, considering the pandemic shut down all the shipyards for several months. Even if they could've accomplished the maintenance requirements without shipyards, like I said before, they more than likely would've been allowed to meet compliance while still in operation, had it not been for the pandemic.

 

Best case scenario, cruise lines get to resume in December. And we don't need the "no they won't" comments from the usual suspects. I said best case scenario. For the judge to hit them with this now, when they're closer than ever to resuming operations, I think that's just low. Their legal troubles should be kept completely separate from the shutdown, which is something they had zero control over.

The judge is not linking the matters to the pandemic shutdown. She is, however, making it clear that she expects the ships to comply with the probation requirements.  That since the cruise lines ships have not monitored during the shutdown, that they need to provide the documentation and to do so such that their is enough time for auditors and those responsible for monitoring during the probation period can check the documentation and make sure that they are in compliance before they start operations in US waters.

 

CCL owned lines and other cruise lines made the decision to remove many of their ships from US waters, where they did not have to report health information to the CDC, during the shutdown.  That also means that the ships would not have been subject to the normal requirements involved in operations in US waters. As a result the court, quite properly wants to make sure that the ships are compliant with the probation requirements when they restart operations.

 

Much better for them to get their act together before restarting operations, than to restart, have additional violations and be brought back to court with additional probation violations, which after the last time, might result in operations in US waters getting banned or getting other major restrictions.

Edited October 19, 2020 by nocl

[roeco9084]

I bet Carnival is looking at redeploying  ships to some  Caribbean  home ports! Bet they wish they wouldnt of dropped San Juan.

Edited October 19, 2020 by roeco9084

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, roeco9084 said:

I bet Carnival is looking at redeploying  ships to some  Caribbean  home ports! Bet they wish they wouldnt of dropped San Juan.

Uh, San Juan is part of the US.  And, as the environmental violations are violations of MARPOL, an international convention, the US can enforce and punish violations wherever in the world they happen.

[Host Carolyn]

Article from Cruise Law is copywrited materia! Please feel free to repost with a link to the article  instead.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Host Carolyn

[travelhound]

18 hours ago, Earthworm Jim said:

 

I haven't heard anything one way or the other as to whether the 24 hour delay changed anything. I'm guessing that means it didn't. Unless they don't make any announcements of such things on weekends, which is possible I guess.

This will continue to be negotiated over the next couple of weeks.  It wouldn't surprise me if they get something resolved fairly soon.

[kdr69]

On 10/17/2020 at 2:07 PM, Organized Chaos said:

The third-party auditors said that some of their ships have as many as 700 maintenance items that need to be addressed.

I see alot of mention of this list. Is the auditor strictly looking at those items related to Environmental concerns or is this list a total of all items? it would be nice to know how many of these 700 are "environmentally related"?  Changing light bulbs and dirty air filters like have been mentioned are not related to Environmental requirements. 

[chengkp75]

56 minutes ago, kdr69 said:

I see alot of mention of this list. Is the auditor strictly looking at those items related to Environmental concerns or is this list a total of all items? it would be nice to know how many of these 700 are "environmentally related"?  Changing light bulbs and dirty air filters like have been mentioned are not related to Environmental requirements. 

The auditor is only tasked with looking at environmental compliance.  So, all of those 700 items are related to environmental laws and regulations.  The auditor has no mandate to look into any other aspect of shipboard operation, so the comments about light in cabins, etc, (which I freely admit I glossed over when first reading the thread, since they were so fatuous.  My ship, with a crew of 20, has about 100 outstanding maintenance items on any given month.) are irrelevant.  Without knowing the contents of the list, I can say that it is likely that Carnival has claimed over the last year that "operational constraints" have limited their ability to get all of these items completed, and now the judge is saying, "well, you haven't had any operations, so no operational constraints, so why aren't these done, while the ships are sitting idle?"

Edited October 19, 2020 by chengkp75

[BlerkOne]

23 hours ago, bigrednole said:

A Federal Judge shutting down a business beyond what Covid has done is fairly straight forward and factual. Any misconduct in this type of ruling or decision could be looked on as liable. For a multi-$B company, I don't think she decided lightly. All we can do is wait and see. I am going to have to take more lumps tomorrow and sell the stock. Once this is widely known, I expect CCL to drop at least 10%. Its one thing being locked down because of Covid, it is completely different when you can't bring a ship into US waters because of environmental failures that you failed to meet during probation and plead guilty to violating.

 

In a down day for the markets, CCL stock is UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BlerkOne]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The auditor is only tasked with looking at environmental compliance.  So, all of those 700 items are related to environmental laws and regulations.

Some of the main categories are listed in this article:

https://www.travelpulse.com/news/cruise/judge-warns-carnival-of-needing-ship-certification-60-days-prior-to-sailing.html

[kdr69]

14 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Some of the main categories are listed in this article:

https://www.travelpulse.com/news/cruise/judge-warns-carnival-of-needing-ship-certification-60-days-prior-to-sailing.html

Thanks for the link however the categories mentioned are not Maintenance related items typically (pollution-prevention equipment, critical environmental spare parts, staffing, voyage planning software and vetting of waste vendors on shore).  There may be items within those categories that are linked to a specific maintenance work order but I cant tell that from the article.

[chengkp75]

24 minutes ago, kdr69 said:

Thanks for the link however the categories mentioned are not Maintenance related items typically (pollution-prevention equipment, critical environmental spare parts, staffing, voyage planning software and vetting of waste vendors on shore).  There may be items within those categories that are linked to a specific maintenance work order but I cant tell that from the article.

Actually, having worked with court auditors on DOJ environmental compliance cases, these things mentioned are considered to be "maintenance" items, this is not just actual physical maintenance of equipment.  These are practices and records that are required to be "maintained" at all times.  It is being used in a generic sense, not specific to physical maintenance.

[xDisconnections]

21 hours ago, DaCruiseBug said:

I feel bad for the cruise industry and everything else going on but i'm glad that finally a corporation is being held accountable for their actions (or inactions). Enough is enough. If you can't follow the laws of our country then you can't operate here. I hope the judge makes the 60 day requirement stick and I hope that a circuit court doesn't succumb to pressure and overturn it.

I don’t feel bad for the industry at all. They had all of this coming.

[kdr69]

Just now, chengkp75 said:

Actually, having worked with court auditors on DOJ environmental compliance cases, these things mentioned are considered to be "maintenance" items, this is not just actual physical maintenance of equipment.  These are practices and records that are required to be "maintained" at all times.  It is being used in a generic sense, not specific to physical maintenance.

Oh for sure some of them might be maintenance related.  As a Facility Maintenance professional my question was about the 700 "items" on the list though and wondering what some of those items may be and i pointed out the article listed some "categories"  not specific items.  As you yourself pointed out at any given time there may be 100 or more maintenance items requiring attention on a ship and not all of them are priority items so i was more curious than anything about the differences or similarities of items between our two Industries.

[xDisconnections]

1 hour ago, BlerkOne said:

 

In a down day for the markets, CCL stock is UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mostly all of travel is up today.

[travelhound]

4 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

 

In a down day for the markets, CCL stock is UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's because most of the bad news has already been priced in.  

[ProgRockCruiser]

On 10/17/2020 at 5:36 PM, Moviela said:

One article said that the Court would not sign the order until later today if Carnival lawyers can make an argument why it should not be signed. I hope she balances law and equity to determine that Carnival is putting forth their best effort. 

So the above was posted on Saturday - I assume by now an actual decision has been made?  I haven't seen anything posted here yet about that.  Or did I miss it, and it is right "there" somewhere?

[BlerkOne]

3 hours ago, travelhound said:

That's because most of the bad news has already been priced in.  

[tidecat]

If we get a deal on a stimulus package we'd probably expect to see more appreciation on the stock price. I don't think the market can really price in the effect of this case because no one else is sailing either.

[john91498]

Wow, as if things weren't bad enough for Carnival...