Potential delay in Carnival Corp's sailing from US Ports

[Cailey53]

FYI

https://www.cruisehive.com/florida-judge-could-hold-up-carnivals-restart-of-operations/42737

[Himself]

This sounds like Politics to me.  I get sich of Judges who act as legislators.

[Hlitner]

If it were only politics it would be simple to solve.  But unfortunately, CCL has a long history of paying lip service to some environmental regulations.  CCL has acknowledged (and plead guilty) to many of the violations but then continue to violate the law!  The Federal Judge has actually shown the patience of Job (this issue has been ongoing for many years) but it sounds like she has finally run out of patience with CCL.  CCL is in such a bad place with the court that it is unlikely they will even try to appeal (they would likely lose at the 5th District).

 

CCL does have a clear path forward which is to simply comply with the law and regulations (most other cruise line's and commercial shipping somehow manage to comply).  Meanwhile that 60 day clock imposed by the Federal court does not start until CCL complies with the Court Order.

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Himself said:

This sounds like Politics to me.  I get sich of Judges who act as legislators.

 

I have to strongly disagree.

 

Carnival has repeatedly thumbed its nose at environmental regulations. Not only did they (by their own admission) violate the regulations in the first place, they have also failed to carry out the items they agreed to address. 

 

Some folks need to realize that the cruise lines do, in fact, do the wrong thing upon occasion and they need to be held accountable for that. 

[ernieb]

Does anyone know if this only applies to Carnival cruises or if it also applies to HAL?

[cruisemom42]

4 minutes ago, ernieb said:

Does anyone know if this only applies to Carnival cruises or if it also applies to HAL?

 

My understanding is that it applies to all Carnival Corp owned brands.

[Cailey53]

12 minutes ago, ernieb said:

Does anyone know if this only applies to Carnival cruises or if it also applies to HAL?

According to the press coverage from Friday, it is all the Carnival Corp lines that want to sail in US waters.

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

If it were only politics it would be simple to solve.  But unfortunately, CCL has a long history of paying lip service to some environmental regulations.  CCL has acknowledged (and plead guilty) to many of the violations but then continue to violate the law!  The Federal Judge has actually shown the patience of Job (this issue has been ongoing for many years) but it sounds like she has finally run out of patience with CCL.  CCL is in such a bad place with the court that it is unlikely they will even try to appeal (they would likely lose at the 5th District).

 

CCL does have a clear path forward which is to simply comply with the law and regulations (most other cruise line's and commercial shipping somehow manage to comply).  Meanwhile that 60 day clock imposed by the Federal court does not start until CCL complies with the Court Order.

 

Hank

And they had plenty of time in the past to start complying instead of just seeing it as a cost of business.

[ontheweb]

42 minutes ago, ernieb said:

Does anyone know if this only applies to Carnival cruises or if it also applies to HAL?

It is definitely Carnival Corporation as several of the complaints seem to be about Princess.

[KirkNC]

One is about HAL as well.  I believe it was the Zaandam that discharged grey water illegally in Alaska.

[iancal]

It is about two serious matters.  Carnival Corp and  subs knowingly and purposely broke environmental laws AND then tried to cover-up it up by altering documents, etc.. 

 

We all like cruising however that should not blind us to the fact that large corporations sometimes do things that are not in the public interest or are against the law.   It comes down to profit.

Edited October 19, 2020 by iancal

[Tampa Girl]

Apart from the judge's order, who expected that Carnival Corp. would be sailing from U.S. waters in the near future.  One would think that Carnival could remedy its situations by the time Covid is under control and the ships might be sailing again.  

[Himself]

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I have to strongly disagree.

 

Carnival has repeatedly thumbed its nose at environmental regulations. Not only did they (by their own admission) violate the regulations in the first place, they have also failed to carry out the items they agreed to address. 

 

Some folks need to realize that the cruise lines do, in fact, do the wrong thing upon occasion and they need to be held accountable for that. 

Maybe Carnival Cruise line has done this But NOT Holland America line. MaybePrincess but not HAL.  HAL has always been sensitive to Environmental issues.

[Mary229]

I am not aware of the facts in the case but I await CCL's response.  

[iancal]

HAL is perfect.  They would never break any environmental laws/regulattions

 

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2019/09/articles/pollution/alaska-fines-hal-17000-after-westerdam-discharges-22500-gallons-of-grey-water-into-glacier-bay-national-park/#:~:text=HAL's owner Carnival Corporation has,with food waste and garbage.

[KirkNC]

2 hours ago, iancal said:

HAL is perfect.  They would never break any environmental laws/regulattions

 

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2019/09/articles/pollution/alaska-fines-hal-17000-after-westerdam-discharges-22500-gallons-of-grey-water-into-glacier-bay-national-park/#:~:text=HAL's owner Carnival Corporation has,with food waste and garbage.

There you go, I was thinking it was the Zaandam.  As with most large corporations, HAL likes to give the impression of superior environmental behavior but since they were caught dumping grey water in Alaska, that image is severely tarnished.

[zelker]

2 hours ago, iancal said:

HAL is perfect.  They would never break any environmental laws/regulattions

 

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2019/09/articles/pollution/alaska-fines-hal-17000-after-westerdam-discharges-22500-gallons-of-grey-water-into-glacier-bay-national-park/#:~:text=HAL's owner Carnival Corporation has,with food waste and garbage.

 

Exactly!

 

[Stateroom_Sailor]

This may very well send a ship or two to the scrap yard, or be sold, as these new costs are calculated.  The cash burn to get the remaining fleet in order, makes me glad to not be a shareholder at the moment.  They're obviously going to need to get things in order, by the time they're crewing up, much further than 60 days before cruising actually resumes.

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Stateroom_Sailor

[Mary229]

After reading/listening to a few cruise commentators on you tube and elsewhere it seems the point of contention is the time from inspection to clearance.  If that is true I suspect CCL will appeal the ruling based on that technical detail and probably be successful in their appeal based on a technicality 

[rkacruiser]

Major salary money has been spent by all of the CCL brands for an "expert" executive dealing with environmental issues.  There is even one for the Corporation itself, I think.  Yet, environmental compliance remains an issue.  Why is this?  

 

Who among us have not done something that could potentially harm our environment without meaning to do so?  (Oh, I ought not to have flushed that Kleenex down my toilet.  Only toilet tissue can be properly handled.)

 

If one takes a Behind the Scenes Tour aboard a vessel--regardless of whatever cruise line--one will always encounter the Officer in charge of environmental issues.  Without exception, they have all been qualified for their job and they have been most serious in performing their responsibilities to the best of their ability.  They are proud of their crew and the facilities for which they oversee.  

 

It's difficult for me, as a guest and a CCL shareholder, to understand why the "suits" in Miami, Seattle, wherever, have not gotten the "memo" concerning the requirement to meet the legal orders that have been correctly made.  

 

 

[iancal]

Here is the thing. 

 

IF you substitute US Steel, Monsanto, or GM for HAL do you think that the same cheerleaders would be rushing to defend these corporations even though they had zero information on the action???  Or claiming that the Judge was making the law, not interpreting it?

[Aquahound]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.  Carnival Corp, including HAL, really messed up, and then doubled down by failing to comply with the court ordered environmental compliance plan.  

[nocl]

11 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.  Carnival Corp, including HAL, really messed up, and then doubled down by failing to comply with the court ordered environmental compliance plan.  

Aquahound,

 

Have not seen you around for a while.  Glad to see you back.

[Aquahound]

7 hours ago, Himself said:

Maybe Carnival Cruise line has done this But NOT Holland America line. MaybePrincess but not HAL.  HAL has always been sensitive to Environmental issues.

 

I wish that were true, Father, but it's not.  On top of the Westerdam incident mentioned, Carnival Corp lines falsified training records, communicated with the U.S. Coast Guard through back channels, failed to give enough authority to company environmental compliance officers, rushed to clean up ships ahead of visits by a court-appointed monitor, continued to clean up ships ahead of auditor visits after the court ordered a stop to the practice, and dumped food waste mixed with plastic into Bahamian waters.  Unfortunately, Holland America is included in this.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Aquahound

[prescottbob]

Grey water isn’t a big deal actually IMHO.

 

Black water = raw sewage (toilet water) & kitchen sink (think chicken prep & other items not processed) and considered major contaminants if not treated via  a treatment facility.

 

Gray water  = bathroom shower, tub & hand wash sink water only.

 

I’ve had the credentials and opportunity to visit the wastewater processing facilities on several HAL ships (the smaller class from years past really) and I can say HAL has always, at least during my on- site observations & discussions with various Environmental officers to be outstanding regarding wastewater discharges.

 

Perhaps there was a mistake of some sort whether it be a wastewater discharge incident or airborne discharge incident ( think carbon particles on the deck in the early AM due to a incinerating problem in the late night)  but even considering the Alaskan environmental regulations me thinks HAL does pretty well, all things considering.

 

Just the mere air and water volume dilution factors from potential air or water pollution events that occur, aka the human condition, should give outside critics some pause.

And life goes on...

 

Be well.

Bob