Will vaccines now be required?

[cltnccruisers]

16 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 My wife falls under 2 of those conditions whereas I'm only under one of them:

 

• People at high risk for severe COVID-19 illness due to underlying medical conditions
• People 65 years and older

 

My wife is older than 65 and we both are diabetic.

 

Be that as it may, our only concern right now is being able to get vaccinated by the end of June, which I believe will be very possible.  Not only to provide us with the potential protection, but, for purely selfish reasons, we have a cruise where the final payment is due on July 29th.  I'll pay it if we're vaccinated by then.  If not, I cancel and move forward with a "back up" cruise that we have booked.  I won't take the position of "well, we might be vaccinated by the cruise..."  The only way we cruise now is with a vaccine being available and we've definitely been inoculated.  What others do is up to them. But I hope people aren't idiots and ignore science.  (Yeah, I know.....)

We are in a similar boat (pun intended) with an August, 2021, ABC cruise.  When May final payment rolls around we'll cancel rather than throw good money after bad.

[nocl]

20 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

No-one said anything was nefarious.  I simply stated the facts of how doctors has been instructed to complete death certificates in relation to Covid and stated my personal opinion that I question the accuracy of simply assessing known symptoms because so many are the same as colds, ILIs and Flu.

It's disingenuous imo to list Covid on the death certificate unless it is 100% tested and proven.

It's also disingenuous to list Covid on the certificate if the person was Covid positive 2-3 weeks before hand and subsequently got killed by something completely different.

 You are taking exceptions and treating as if they applied to the majority.

 

In the early days when testing was not available more entries were from clinical diagnosis.  Of course at that time the main thing that Doctors were looking for was viral Pneumonia.  At that time they also missed a number of items that we now know is related to COVID such as blood clots, strokes, kidney failure.  So while in the early days there were most likely some misdiagnosis concerning pneumonia deaths, there were also a number of cases from strokes and other indications that did not get classified as COVID because less was known about the illness at that time.

 

The cause of death information generally comes from the CDC wonder system, the multiple cause of death data base.  Some tried to take that data and say see the people died of other things and not Covid because only 6% of the entries only listed Covid.  Of course that indicates a major misunderstanding of both the data and the disease.  The 6%  that only listed Covid are really entries that do  not contain complete information.  

 

The reason why is COVID causes body systems and organs to fail.  It is the failure of one or more systems that leads to death.  The purpose of the database is to provide medical information showing how an illness progresses and impacts the body and eventually leads to death.  So if someone has Covid and it cause pneumonia the cause of death includes both. If someone has COVID and it causes a stroke, the cause of death includes both.  If someone has COVID, high blood pressure, obese, and COVID causes a heart attack it will list the multiple reasons.  

 

With any database of this size there will certainly be an error rate, but the level of those errors will be small compared to the size of the data base.

 

The data in this database provides very valuable medical information telling medical professionals what to watch for as disease progresses.

 

 

[cltnccruisers]

I vividly recall Dr Birx stating in one of the task force briefings that physicians, hospitals, coroners, etc, were being instructed that if COVID existed at all then they should list it in the death certificate as causal.  I think a lot of folks interpreted that to mean it was the only cause of death - regardless of that gunshot wound to the head.

[Fouremco]

27 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

I can see the anti-vaxxers becoming the new dismissed minority for their ignorance.  once approved and widely available, COVID 19 Vaccine  requirements will be mandatory for most international and even some domestic travel. If you want to be an anti-vaxxer and stay confined to your home or state for the next few years that is just fine, but we do not want to hear one complaint about it. We all live and die by the life decisions we make.

I've read a few articles recently which suggest that the COVID anti-vaxxers may face a broader range of mandatory vaccine requirements than travel. One example cited was the possibility that some businesses with employees working from home might require them to be vaccinated if they wish to return to the office. Gyms might require their members to be vaccinated, and various clubs and organizations might place the same demands upon their members. The list goes on. There are a number of thorny legal and ethical questions still to be addressed, and the outcome will vary from locale to locale, but there is little doubt that the anti-vaxxers will become social pariahs in the months and years to come.   

[UnorigionalName]

17 minutes ago, cltnccruisers said:

I vividly recall Dr Birx stating in one of the task force briefings that physicians, hospitals, coroners, etc, were being instructed that if COVID existed at all then they should list it in the death certificate as causal.  I think a lot of folks interpreted that to mean it was the only cause of death - regardless of that gunshot wound to the head.

 

This is not true.  COVID deaths are likely underestimated, especially in waves #2 and #3.  Please don't twist things to support your conspiracy theory:

 

 

as you can see, COVID mortality is likely drastically underestimated, especially as this is turning out (like in Australia, who you may recall is in the southern hemisphere and has finished their winter and finished their 2020 flu season with like >90% reduction in flu) as probably the mildest flu season on record.

 

So please, stop spreading the lie that COVID deaths are overestimated.  They are underestimated. The end.

 

 

[deliver42]

I can't wait to cruise again, and I will gladly take the vaccination.

[nocl]

58 minutes ago, cltnccruisers said:

I vividly recall Dr Birx stating in one of the task force briefings that physicians, hospitals, coroners, etc, were being instructed that if COVID existed at all then they should list it in the death certificate as causal.  I think a lot of folks interpreted that to mean it was the only cause of death - regardless of that gunshot wound to the head.

If someone has active COVID then it certainly should be listed, just as if someone is obese, has high blood pressure and any other factors that may be a factor in death.

 

They are also finding that some impacts of COVID (even is asymptomatic cases) are in damage to heart, circulatory system, kidneys and brain where the impact might not show up for months after active disease ends.

[ECCruise]

1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

I've read a few articles recently which suggest that the COVID anti-vaxxers may face a broader range of mandatory vaccine requirements than travel. One example cited was the possibility that some businesses with employees working from home might require them to be vaccinated if they wish to return to the office. Gyms might require their members to be vaccinated, and various clubs and organizations might place the same demands upon their members. The list goes on. There are a number of thorny legal and ethical questions still to be addressed, and the outcome will vary from locale to locale, but there is little doubt that the anti-vaxxers will become social pariahs in the months and years to come.   

I wonder if a high percentage of the anti-vaxxers are also in the "open everything now" camp.  Could be.

 

Would that be something if those folks had very little to do (banned from travel, restaurants, gyms, etc.) while those of us who supported staying at home (and vaccinations) will be out and about, living normal lives.

 

Totally speculative, of course.  But interesting.

[Fouremco]

1 minute ago, ECCruise said:

I wonder if a high percentage of the anti-vaxxers are also in the "open everything now" camp.  Could be.

 

Would that be something if those folks had very little to do (banned from travel, restaurants, gyms, etc.) while those of us who supported staying at home (and vaccinations) will be out and about, living normal lives.

 

Totally speculative, of course.  But interesting.

Yes, I'm quite sure that there is overlap between the two groups, although I suspect that the anti-vaxxers comprise a relative minority.

[Arizona Wildcat]

1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

I've read a few articles recently which suggest that the COVID anti-vaxxers may face a broader range of mandatory vaccine requirements than travel. One example cited was the possibility that some businesses with employees working from home might require them to be vaccinated if they wish to return to the office. Gyms might require their members to be vaccinated, and various clubs and organizations might place the same demands upon their members. The list goes on. There are a number of thorny legal and ethical questions still to be addressed, and the outcome will vary from locale to locale, but there is little doubt that the anti-vaxxers will become social pariahs in the months and years to come.   

In the US you cannot mandate a vaccination -IF THERE IS A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE.  That could be permanently wearing a mask or working or learning from home.

Local schools - Grades 9-12 and Universities - are discussing vaccinations or only online classes.  Several employers are planning on mandatory vac or working from home.  Where that is not possible the employee can vac or resign.  Government is looking at required vaccination and requiring proof to enter government buildings.

Am done with arguing about what is needed.  Only know DW has several health issues and want to protect her best as possible.

Not getting vaccinated may well have consequences that at least for a while; effect and limit all facets of one's life

[LGW59]

2 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

In the US you cannot mandate a vaccination -IF THERE IS A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE.  That could be permanently wearing a mask or working or learning from home.

Local schools - Grades 9-12 and Universities - are discussing vaccinations or only online classes.  Several employers are planning on mandatory vac or working from home.  Where that is not possible the employee can vac or resign.  Government is looking at required vaccination and requiring proof to enter government buildings.

Am done with arguing about what is needed.  Only know DW has several health issues and want to protect her best as possible.

Not getting vaccinated may well have consequences that at least for a while; effect and limit all facets of one's life

All I can add is VAX ME UP!!!

[Arizona Wildcat]

59 minutes ago, nocl said:

If someone has active COVID then it certainly should be listed, just as if someone is obese, has high blood pressure and any other factors that may be a factor in death.

 

They are also finding that some impacts of COVID (even is asymptomatic cases) are in damage to heart, circulatory system, kidneys and brain where the impact might not show up for months after active disease ends.

Just wondering what the cause of death on a death certificate has to do with cruising?

If one wants the best picture possible go to the total US or Canada or ??? monthly death numbers.  Take a look at 2018, 2019 and 2020 - up to only August as it takes 90-120 days for the number to be complete.  The numbers are quite clear as the only two changes are COVID and a reduction in Southern Hemisphere for flu this year.

[terrydtx]

1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

I've read a few articles recently which suggest that the COVID anti-vaxxers may face a broader range of mandatory vaccine requirements than travel. One example cited was the possibility that some businesses with employees working from home might require them to be vaccinated if they wish to return to the office. Gyms might require their members to be vaccinated, and various clubs and organizations might place the same demands upon their members. The list goes on. There are a number of thorny legal and ethical questions still to be addressed, and the outcome will vary from locale to locale, but there is little doubt that the anti-vaxxers will become social pariahs in the months and years to come.   

I have also read similar reports as what you state. The legal question may arise whether the government can mandate a universal vaccination, but private companies, airlines and cruise lines are well within their rights to require vaccinations of employees and customers. Also any foreign country will be in their rights to mandate vaccinations to enter their country. I read one story yesterday that both Quanta's Airlines and Australia are contemplating  requiring vaccinations to fly and enter their country.

[Cachecara]

On 11/29/2020 at 5:44 PM, terrydtx said:

I have to believe most of the anti-vaxxers have not had a friend or loved one die from Covid. As someone who has had both, I can not fathom the idea of anyone not wanting to be vaccinated. Once Covid has personally touched you, your whole reality about the virus changes.

Thank you.   ITA.  

[LGW59]

1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

Yes, I'm quite sure that there is overlap between the two groups, although I suspect that the anti-vaxxers comprise a relative minority.

I suspect that your suspicion is 100% accurate!

[LGW59]

On 11/29/2020 at 6:49 PM, KnowTheScore said:

 

No-one said anything was nefarious.  I simply stated the facts of how doctors has been instructed to complete death certificates in relation to Covid and stated my personal opinion that I question the accuracy of simply assessing known symptoms because so many are the same as colds, ILIs and Flu.

It's disingenuous imo to list Covid on the death certificate unless it is 100% tested and proven.

It's also disingenuous to list Covid on the certificate if the person was Covid positive 2-3 weeks before hand and subsequently got killed by something completely different.

Well yes, you never said anything was "nefarious", you just said (or very implicitly implied) they were falsifying the death certificates to pad the numbers.  You have no argument, NOTHING you say has been based on fact.  Because it makes the news does not make it true.  Trust the science and experts.🙄

[nomad098]

I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards. There are reasons why people may not have the vaccine or are not wanting to have the first one on the market other than being an anti vaxxer.

 

Medical where another vaccine might be preferable, would one of the upcoming vaccines be better suited based upon age, gender, ethnicity and medical history, can you mix different vaccines?

 

Already had covid-19, would the vaccine be wasted on you 130 million wasted doses, any studies to show it would be safe if you had already had the disease. If having had covid-19 and it is shown to provide long term immunity what would the legal standpoint be if you have a adverse reaction to the vaccine.

 

Ethical considerations. The UK Government need to make ethical decisions in regards to the risk and benefits of a vaccine based on a variety of factors including age. Governments may decide on a cost basis that under a certain age you do not need to be vaccinated, unless medically required to do so, as covid-19 does not pose enough of a risk.

Children in the UK are not offered a chicken pox vaccination because the risk is so low, the same could be applied to covid-19 in children when long term outcomes of the vaccine are unknown.

 

Genuine concern in regards to long term effects, a 95% efficacy does not equate to safety, this does not make you an anti vaxxer.  

 

And probably more I have not covered.

 

On top of which the cruise lines want to get up and running and no one knows how long logistically it will take to get enough people vaccinated with a certificate to justify getting cruising going, how long do they wait.

 

If a person states because of a disability/religion I can not have the covid vaccine and your told you need to be vaccinated to cruise this opens the door to discrimination claims, why do you think they let so many emotional support animals on. Lawyers in the UK are already anticipating discrimination claims in regards to employment law  Cruise Lines may be able to insist on vaccination certificates sailing from and to the US but may find themselves in hot water in the rest of the world about 30% of their market

 

To discriminate based upon a first generation vaccine will probably make the lawyers very rich. 

 

Countries could make a vaccination certificate a requirement for movement in and out of their borders which would solve the problem but I think it will be a legal nightmare for businesses to put it in their T&C's

 

We have this problem in the UK with anti maskers and inconsiderate people claiming health exemptions for not wearing a mask in shops and legally the shops can not challenge them.

 

An interesting article from a UK perspective about vaccines and employment law

https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/experts/advice/covid-19-vaccine-what-businesses-should-consider

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by nomad098
Grammar

[d9704011]

41 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

If a person states because of a disability/religion I can not have the covid vaccine and your told you need to be vaccinated to cruise this opens the door to discrimination claims, why do you think they let so many emotional support animals on.

I pretty much agree with most of your post but I have to take issue with the excerpt.  I don’t believe other passengers have run any real risk of catching a potentially deadly disease from an emotional support animal.  I don’t think your example, for anybody contemplating some sort of discrimination lawsuit, will be effective.

[UnorigionalName]

1 hour ago, nomad098 said:

I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards. There are reasons why people may not have the vaccine or are not wanting to have the first one on the market other than being an anti vaxxer.

 

Medical where another vaccine might be preferable, would one of the upcoming vaccines be better suited based upon age, gender, ethnicity and medical history, can you mix different vaccines?

 

Already had covid-19, would the vaccine be wasted on you 130 million wasted doses, any studies to show it would be safe if you had already had the disease. If having had covid-19 and it is shown to provide long term immunity what would the legal standpoint be if you have a adverse reaction to the vaccine.

 

Ethical considerations. The UK Government need to make ethical decisions in regards to the risk and benefits of a vaccine based on a variety of factors including age. Governments may decide on a cost basis that under a certain age you do not need to be vaccinated, unless medically required to do so, as covid-19 does not pose enough of a risk.

Children in the UK are not offered a chicken pox vaccination because the risk is so low, the same could be applied to covid-19 in children when long term outcomes of the vaccine are unknown.

 

Genuine concern in regards to long term effects, a 95% efficacy does not equate to safety, this does not make you an anti vaxxer.  

 

And probably more I have not covered.

 

On top of which the cruise lines want to get up and running and no one knows how long logistically it will take to get enough people vaccinated with a certificate to justify getting cruising going, how long do they wait.

 

If a person states because of a disability/religion I can not have the covid vaccine and your told you need to be vaccinated to cruise this opens the door to discrimination claims, why do you think they let so many emotional support animals on. Lawyers in the UK are already anticipating discrimination claims in regards to employment law  Cruise Lines may be able to insist on vaccination certificates sailing from and to the US but may find themselves in hot water in the rest of the world about 30% of their market

 

To discriminate based upon a first generation vaccine will probably make the lawyers very rich. 

 

Countries could make a vaccination certificate a requirement for movement in and out of their borders which would solve the problem but I think it will be a legal nightmare for businesses to put it in their T&C's

 

We have this problem in the UK with anti maskers and inconsiderate people claiming health exemptions for not wearing a mask in shops and legally the shops can not challenge them.

 

An interesting article from a UK perspective about vaccines and employment law

https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/experts/advice/covid-19-vaccine-what-businesses-should-consider

 

 

 

 

There is no major religion that is against vaccination.  That's why many states in the US are getting rid of the religious vaccine exemption.

 

I am sure the cruise lines will do the math for us.

 

Are there more people who would not cruise if not all passengers are vaccinated?

Or are there more people who would not cruise if they had to get a vaccine?

 

 

[markeb]

1 hour ago, nomad098 said:

I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards. There are reasons why people may not have the vaccine or are not wanting to have the first one on the market other than being an anti vaxxer.

 

Medical where another vaccine might be preferable, would one of the upcoming vaccines be better suited based upon age, gender, ethnicity and medical history, can you mix different vaccines?

 

Didn't want to quote the whole thing, and there are aspects I don't fully agree with, but I  think this is a reasoned discussion. And there will be national differences, I'm sure, as you point out. Most religious exemptions in the US can be overruled, for instance, depending on the state and circumstances. I don't believe it's that simple in the UK, and I don't believe the EU has a policy across the member states. And there's a whole lot of the world's population that aren't in any of those groups!

 

The first two vaccines to get authorization have very good performance data, but no one knows yet if the next one or two, or more, will have different performance in different age groups, different underlying health conditions, etc. Fortunately, the two mRNA vaccines appear incredibly safe (acutely), and if they generally work, we probably buy a year or more to determine if one of the others is a significantly better booster. And some people will wait out.

 

The US CDC has taken the opposite recommendation on Varicella (chickenpox) and recommends it at 12-15 months and again at 4-6 years. Colleges and universities in the past have required MMR and meningococcal vaccines; the CDC recommends both in the US. I'm a few years removed from having to get an MMR at 33 as the easiest path to get into a graduate program, so I haven't tracked those requirements.

 

Requiring immunization of employees has basis and I'm sure limitations in labor law and union contracts; requiring it for customers will almost certainly be a far more complicated legal question, country to country, than I want to think about. Requiring immunizations for entry into a foreign country is pretty well established in international law, and, for instance, if half the Caribbean islands start requiring proof of immunization, this is a moot point for the most part, and the cruise lines will do what they do with all immigration requirement; tell you to RT$M and it's all on you...

[LGW59]

2 hours ago, nomad098 said:

I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards. There are reasons why people may not have the vaccine or are not wanting to have the first one on the market other than being an anti vaxxer.

 

Medical where another vaccine might be preferable, would one of the upcoming vaccines be better suited based upon age, gender, ethnicity and medical history, can you mix different vaccines?

 

Already had covid-19, would the vaccine be wasted on you 130 million wasted doses, any studies to show it would be safe if you had already had the disease. If having had covid-19 and it is shown to provide long term immunity what would the legal standpoint be if you have a adverse reaction to the vaccine.

 

Ethical considerations. The UK Government need to make ethical decisions in regards to the risk and benefits of a vaccine based on a variety of factors including age. Governments may decide on a cost basis that under a certain age you do not need to be vaccinated, unless medically required to do so, as covid-19 does not pose enough of a risk.

Children in the UK are not offered a chicken pox vaccination because the risk is so low, the same could be applied to covid-19 in children when long term outcomes of the vaccine are unknown.

 

Genuine concern in regards to long term effects, a 95% efficacy does not equate to safety, this does not make you an anti vaxxer.  

 

And probably more I have not covered.

 

On top of which the cruise lines want to get up and running and no one knows how long logistically it will take to get enough people vaccinated with a certificate to justify getting cruising going, how long do they wait.

 

If a person states because of a disability/religion I can not have the covid vaccine and your told you need to be vaccinated to cruise this opens the door to discrimination claims, why do you think they let so many emotional support animals on. Lawyers in the UK are already anticipating discrimination claims in regards to employment law  Cruise Lines may be able to insist on vaccination certificates sailing from and to the US but may find themselves in hot water in the rest of the world about 30% of their market

 

To discriminate based upon a first generation vaccine will probably make the lawyers very rich. 

 

Countries could make a vaccination certificate a requirement for movement in and out of their borders which would solve the problem but I think it will be a legal nightmare for businesses to put it in their T&C's

 

We have this problem in the UK with anti maskers and inconsiderate people claiming health exemptions for not wearing a mask in shops and legally the shops can not challenge them.

 

An interesting article from a UK perspective about vaccines and employment law

https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/experts/advice/covid-19-vaccine-what-businesses-should-consider

 

 

 

"I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards."   You left out the part where coronavirus does NOT discriminate!

[nomad098]

6 hours ago, d9704011 said:

I pretty much agree with most of your post but I have to take issue with the excerpt.  I don’t believe other passengers have run any real risk of catching a potentially deadly disease from an emotional support animal.  I don’t think your example, for anybody contemplating some sort of discrimination lawsuit, will be effective.

 

I suppose the point is people will use loopholes to circumvent rules and discrimination laws are different around the world.

[nomad098]

6 hours ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

There is no major religion that is against vaccination.  That's why many states in the US are getting rid of the religious vaccine exemption.

 

I am sure the cruise lines will do the math for us.

 

Are there more people who would not cruise if not all passengers are vaccinated?

Or are there more people who would not cruise if they had to get a vaccine?

 

 

 

Different laws different parts of the world what is done in the US does not apply to the rest of the world.

[nomad098]

5 hours ago, LGW59 said:

"I'm not trying to single anyone out but there seems to be a lot of coronavirus discrimination on these boards."   You left out the part where coronavirus does NOT discriminate!

 

No it doesn't people do

[nomad098]

5 hours ago, markeb said:

 

Didn't want to quote the whole thing, and there are aspects I don't fully agree with, but I  think this is a reasoned discussion. And there will be national differences, I'm sure, as you point out. Most religious exemptions in the US can be overruled, for instance, depending on the state and circumstances. I don't believe it's that simple in the UK, and I don't believe the EU has a policy across the member states. And there's a whole lot of the world's population that aren't in any of those groups!

 

 

The UK government could not get national ID cards passed into law for safety and security even after terrorist attacks, I suspect an internal national vaccine certification system would be beyond them due to a substantial governmental opposition against vaccine certificates.

 

The minister in the UK put in charge of covid vaccines suggested bars and events might require vaccine certification and there has been quite a lot of push back from all sectors of the UK including bars and event organisations.

 

I am living in an area of the UK that come Friday 6pm alcohol laws will be on a par with some of the middle eastern countries, no alcohol at all in bars, restaurants or cafes, these must shut by 6pm everyday and only certain places allowed to sell alcohol to consumed at home, at least until 17th December but quite possible longer, it's not gone down well with businesses or the majority of the population.