The traveler's dilemma: How do you feel about popular destinations? Do crowds ruin a place?

[MJC]

As a New York City resident and a tourist elsewhere, I can see this conversation from both sides. Until covid came we had such a booming tourist industry here, which is great because it brings revenue, but also it turns so much of what used to be residential New York into a mass of people and services for tourists rather than meeting the real needs of those who live here... try to find a neighborhood hardware store anymore. I miss the independent shops and restaurants, and being able to find a quiet place for a cup of coffee and a bit of rest in the middle of my day (we do a lot of walking here and get tired too). But I appreciate what it is like to visit NY, how much fun can be had here, and the amount of cultural activities that some people just don't have access to where they live. Even I enjoy being a tourist in my city when I get the time. I'm sure that when I moved here in the 80's there were NYers complaining that it was getting too crowded back then and looked at me with disdain.

 

It used to be that the tourists came with the warm weather, so we had the city to ourselves in the winter. But for the last ten years or more it has been crowded year-round. One learns to adapt... be an early bird and use those museum membership hours. Know a few go-to restaurants that don't have Open Table. :) Live in a building that doesn't allow Airbnb so you don't have strangers coming and going in the elevators all the time. (We like knowing our neighbors. We feel safer that way.) It's hard to be upset that tourists are "ruining" things when you see people enjoying your city so much. I am proud to live here and like showing it off when I get the chance.

 

Because we live in a crowded city, we try to avoid big crowds when we travel, while knowing that some places will never be that way (the Louvre, Times Square). We are so glad to have been to Angkor Wat with a private guide who took us through backwards, avoiding most of the crowds (even in 2006!), and to have stayed overnight at Machu Picchu so we could be exploring already at 6am before the mad rush from the train arrived. Nowadays I don't know that there is any workable strategy for the crowding at some places. At the rest, we try to go off-season, avoid ship excursions, and be patient when it's called for.

 

I read a book last summer about travelers vs. tourists (basically unless you never go home you are a tourist) and whether it's wise to have a bucket list and read reviews. I can't recall the name at the moment. But in this time when we cannot travel,  it made me think a lot about what travel means to me, what I think is worth seeing and doing for us. I will say that I had a three-day visit to Pittsburgh this summer to see my brother and it was absolutely delightful. Mindset is a powerful thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[getting older slowly]

I think one has touched on the big issue... which applies to lots of places from major tourist attractions to small country towns... where tourists flock to.. regardless of how there get there ( cruise ship, bus, to otherwise )

 

Over tourism ... businesses getting the easy money    and the word getting out this is great spot over media ( social or otherwise )

 

One has seen this over reliance of tourism with the stop of tourists... some small towns have bring brought to the point of collapse, businesses and people with no jobs leaving the town.....

 

Overall it is a difficult issue.. which the Pandemic has brought to the forefront....

 

so it is a big issue.... which only time   will give us the answer

[SelectSys]

5 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

What do you think?  Are these places still worth visiting?  Are there strategies to make them more enjoyable (short of cutting tourism in half)?  Does it bother you to be in a place and surrounded by more tourists than locals?

 

In terms of visiting, it really depends on how time you have and how important it is to you.  Feeling obligated to check off all the items on a list created by others isn't the best strategy to me.

 

My strategy is like many others - try and go off season or at least when kids are in school.  This affords a better shot at somewhat smaller crowds.  I also like to go early in the day as this is another way to possibly get a small jump.  Later in the day is better for public spaces.  I think another strategy is to look at alterative destinations that share similar characteristics to the "headline" locations but have similar features.  I guess my final strategy - again based on time - is to go off the main tourist pathways even in the most popular locations.

 

I agree that it is sad to be surrounded by tourists all the time.  I think a good vacation mixes up big ticket locations with those in surrounding areas.  

 

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

With such a small number of permanent residents, Venice needs to find a better balance -- either extract more money from tourist to cover the costs of repairing and maintaining their city, or limit the numbers. 

 

It's not just Venice. I think many historic centers of cities in Europe were going doing the same path.  I was watching a program on Madrid during the pandemic and the historic center is pretty much a ghost town without all the tourist activity.

 

Perhaps Venice should set up a turnstile for visitors like Disneyland!  Last time I was there it seemed more crowded than a Disney Park at the height of the summer.  Not at all pleasant during the day. 

[navybankerteacher]

This is perhaps one of the real benefits of public education -- not so much what the students learn, but the fact that it keeps so many potential tourists off the streets of lovely places during the school year.  All the parents, their children (if they travel with them), the teachers and the administrators -- they are NOT in Rome, Venice, Dubrovnik, Athens, you name it.

 

Then, of course, there is also the chance that some of the students are learning something.

[FredT]

Rome.... LOL.  We went for the first time in February.   Rainy, cold, and DESERTED.   Of course we did not realize until later that the "added reason" that it was so deserted was the first wave of COVID hitting Italy.   But there is something to be said for a Vatican that you can walk right into, and having about 100 people MAX in the Sistine Chapel ... 😁

[ed01106]

Places are popular for a reason.  It is selfish, self-center and the height of privilege to think that “*I* deserve to visit this place without crowds and *YOU* are ruining *MY* experience “. 

  

[cruisemom42]

6 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

Places are popular for a reason.  It is selfish, self-center and the height of privilege to think that “*I* deserve to visit this place without crowds and *YOU* are ruining *MY* experience “. 

  

 

I don't think anyone here is saying that. 

 

I think everyone who wants to and is able to should definitely visit. The question though is how to manage it. 

 

And honesty compels me to say that it is certainly possible for me to feel that the collective *YOU* are impacting (if not ruining) my experience. A place can only support so many people -- like a ship -- before it sinks under the weight of them.

 

[navybankerteacher]

2 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

Places are popular for a reason.  It is selfish, self-center and the height of privilege to think that “*I* deserve to visit this place without crowds and *YOU* are ruining *MY* experience “. 

  

Really?   What is wrong with wanting to experience some place  without being part of a mob which makes it next to impossible to experience what makes it worth experiencing?

 

 

 

 

[ed01106]

9 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Really?   What is wrong with wanting to experience some place  without being part of a mob which makes it next to impossible to experience what makes it worth experiencing?

 

 

 

 

A place will develop its own limiting stop point that caters to the maximum number of people willing to share that experience with that number of other.   As places get too crowded people will decide to elsewhere until it gets less crowded and more people want to return.  Thus catering to the maximum number of people.  If that is too crowded for you go somewhere else. 

[cruisemom42]

1 minute ago, ed01106 said:

A place will develop its own limiting stop point that caters to the maximum number of people willing to share that experience with that number of other.   As places get too crowded people will decide to elsewhere until it gets less crowded and more people want to return.  Thus catering to the maximum number of people.  If that is too crowded for you go somewhere else. 

 

People don't always know how crowded a place is until they arrive, and if they arrive on a cruise ship there is no "going somewhere else".  

 

Neither towns nor municipalities nor museums (nor travel agencies and cruise lines) have shown a propensity to self-govern in this respect. Crowding in some places in peak times approaches dangerous levels. What would happen if there was a fire in the Vatican museum and some proportion of the 20,000 people who visit daily in peak season have to get out fast?

 

UNESCO has even warned various sites that they are in danger of losing their World Heritage designation (and apparently lucrative funding) if they don't do something about the problem. To date, only a few have.

 

[navybankerteacher]

1 minute ago, ed01106 said:

A place will develop its own limiting stop point that caters to the maximum number of people willing to share that experience with that number of other.   As places get too crowded people will decide to elsewhere until it gets less crowded and more people want to return.  Thus catering to the maximum number of people.  If that is too crowded for you go somewhere else. 

And, when the place is "too crowded" no one gets to experience it -- and, once "too crowded" it may very well be damaged beyond repair.  Perhaps it is better that localities with special characteristics take effective steps to protect what is there..  This actually happens in a number of different places.

[Torfamm]

6 hours ago, ontheweb said:

 

 

The one really over the top too crowded experience I can post was in Paris. At the Louvre, the room to see the Mona Lisa was packed, and you had to look over everyone's cellphones held way up in the air. (Not on a cruise, but the topic specified the experience did not have to be cruise related.) This was in an August, but DW is a teacher so travelling is difficult at other times. (And landing in Paris on your anniversary is quite romantic.)

 

I went to the Louvre in the summer a few years ago and agree, the crowd seeing the Mona Lisa was almost frightening.  I felt like I was at a concert being pushed up toward that stage.  Never again.

 

[Mary229]

 Art should be contemplated not checked off a wish list.  With the vast improvements in technology I would rather watch a HD 360 video than be in a claustrophobic crowd.   Perhaps if we get there in 2022 there will be true limited by reservation access as so many museums have now.  
 

....before I am scolded I did see many of these works as a university student in the 70s when one simply walked in from the street with no lines at all

[clo]

3 hours ago, MJC said:

Pittsburgh

I've heard great things about Pittsburgh.

 

Thanks for something so well written. We used to live in San Francisco and practically their own industry is tourism so, yeah, I get it.

[clo]

47 minutes ago, Torfamm said:

I went to the Louvre in the summer a few years ago and agree, the crowd seeing the Mona Lisa was almost frightening.  I felt like I was at a concert being pushed up toward that stage.  Never again.

 

Every person I've ever said "I far preferred the D'Orsay" has agreed with me. For that reason.

[navybankerteacher]

5 hours ago, broberts said:

...

 

On the other hand, these same crowds provide the revenue necessary for restoration and maintenance. 

Except that those crowds can destroy what might need restoration and maintenance.

[navybankerteacher]

10 minutes ago, clo said:

Every person I've ever said "I far preferred the D'Orsay" has agreed with me. For that reason.

I think I preferred the specialized, and wonderfully ignored, Orangerie.

[mom says]

11 minutes ago, clo said:

Every person I've ever said "I far preferred the D'Orsay" has agreed with me. For that reason.

So you preferred the d'Orsey over the Louvre just because the Mona Lisa room was crowded? Not because you preferred the art in one over the other? I've visited the Louvre at least once every time I've visited Paris. It's VAST. Move 2 rooms over from Mona and the crowds are gone. Go into one of the further galleries and you may well have it all to yourself. And if you must see Mona, do it at closing time when the crowds have left for the day.

[cruisemom42]

14 minutes ago, clo said:

Every person I've ever said "I far preferred the D'Orsay" has agreed with me. For that reason.

 

So I will be a contrarian. I prefer the Louvre because it's where the Classical sculptures (Greek, Roman, Etruscan) are, as well as the Egyptian and Near Eastern collections. (And also not very crowded much of the time...)

[clo]

12 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

I think I preferred the specialized, and wonderfully ignored, Orangerie.

Actually not JUST for that reason and I should have gone back. The building itself and the specialized art.

[clo]

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

UNESCO has even warned various sites that they are in danger of losing their World Heritage designation (and apparently lucrative funding) if they don't do something about the problem. To date, only a few have.

 

I've read that UNESCO has given that warning to Dubrovnik and someone posted - you? - that they've made changes. We were there on an escorted land tour and didn't have the option of going some place else nearby. But we did walk up a couple of side 'streets' (barely bigger than sidewalks) and had a glass of wine. And then found a rather high'ish end restaurant where there were tourists but polite 🙂 ones with a view of the harbor.

[Essiesmom]

My experience was visiting China in 1983.  I  was with a large group of professionals and tag-alongs.  There were two busloads of us, about 65 people.  When we visited the Great Wall at Badaling, the buses could park right next to the wall, walk right in,  there was one place to eat and two shops.  Most of the others there were Japanese, and non-local Chinese tourists.  And there were not many of those.  I was back ten years later, and it had totally changed.  Park half a mile away and climb steps lined with vendors to get to the road.  Show a ticket to get into the gate.  There were costumed re-enactors on the walls, at the gates, smoke and cannons, etc.  And lost more tourists.  I shudder to think what it must be like 28 years later...

I also dislike the crowds in Venice, but I love Venice despite that.  I found that once you leave the Rialto and St. Marks areas, it is totally different.  We walked all over, visiting churches that were nearly deserted.  There are still parts we haven't explored, but...there are other new places...  EM

[jtwind]

I had to laugh the first time we went on a small cruise ship.  Sure, there were smaller ports where we were the only ship and there were hardly any tourists.  Then we got to Philipsburg, and docked in the shadow of 2 mega ships.

[ldubs]

12 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

So would you advise others to skip it altogether?  This is where I dither.

 

 

The reality is that any of the "top 10" places are going to be very crowded.  I don't advise folks to skip them, but do advise them to prepare for the reality of crowds.  Go -- see the Mona Lisa.  If they haven't been to the top of the Eiffel Tower, then do it (want a great pic with the Eiffel Tower in the background, go to the Bir Hakem bridge).   After those almost obligatory sites, then visit the rest of the Louvre with fewer crowds and then enjoy all of Paris outside of the "hot" spots.  

 

I suspect that even if controls are put in place, these top sites are still going to be crowded and restrictions will make it very difficult for visits without long advance planning. This is the world we live in.   Have a good attitude  (like MJC says above, mindset is a powerful thing) and enjoy.   

[gerryuk]

Its very easy to visit a place and find it too crowded, but remember before you blame the crowds, just remember you are part of that crowd and are as much to blame for the place being overrun.