Carnival Corporation has dissolved the Holland America Group...

[Hlitner]

Interesting comments about MSC.  We are among the HAL veterans (5*) who has cruised on MSC (6 cruises) and absolutely love the line if in their Yacht Club (no interest in outside the YC).  It is an amazing product, has innovative management, and is growing by 1-2 new ships a year (for the foreseeable future).  They have also spun off a new Luxury Line, called Explora Journeys, that is building 6- 900 passenger ships (the Explora 1 has its maiden voyage in July).

 

For us, our last recent HAL cruise (42 days on the Westerdam) was our last HAL cruise unless the line changes its attitude and works to return to its previous high quality.  Meanwhile, we continue to cruise several other lines (Princess, Oceania, Seabourn, Explora Journeys, MSC, etc).  MSC is unique, among all major cruise lines, because it is privately held (not on the stock market) with the major owners (the Aponte family) not afraid of innovation.  They are also the only cruise line with very deep pockets without having to deal with the outrageous debt service payments that now encumber CCL, RCI and NCLH.  a Consider that on our last MSC cruise (Seaside) they had Production Shows every night of the week and generally 4 or 5 venues with live music until at least 11pm.  

 

I will give HAL the benefit of the doubt and hope that the reorganization of CCL is a step in improving the HAL product.  On the other hand, HAL is also one of the brands for which there are currently no plans for newbuilds.  We find it interesting that Seabourn is under HAL management, and hope that does not lead to the slow destruction of a terrific luxury line.

 

Hank

[Haljo1935]

@Hlitner with the sale of Azamara, I believe they are also privately held with deep pockets. 

[REOVA]

18 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

 Consider that on our last MSC cruise (Seaside) they had Production Shows every night of the week and generally 4 or 5 venues. 

If you just want something to listen to then yes there are more options but most of the acts are accompanied with recorded music and while the main shows were good, the other venues are crowded. We also don't cruise unless it's Yacht Club which blows away HAL "suites" but the rest of the ship is too big and have their issues as well. Look forward to the evolution of MSC and hope they don't Americanize their cruises here too much. And their customer service (off ship) is the worst. Even my TA cringes when discussing. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

 

  We find it interesting that Seabourn is under HAL management, and hope that does not lead to the slow destruction of a terrific luxury line.

 

Hank

Correct but what a potential upside for HAL if a sale is completed. (We've all speculating but nothing wrong with dreaming.😉)

[Hlitner]

12 minutes ago, Haljo1935 said:

@Hlitner with the sale of Azamara, I believe they are also privately held with deep pockets. 

Perhaps....or at least for the moment.  Sycamore Partners is what some would call a hedge fund (they would probably disagree with this categorization), so we will have to wait and see if they have a real commitment to developing a cruise line or whether they bottom fished (they got a good deal on their purchase) and will eventually sell Azamara for a quick profit.  HAL fans might smile that Sycamore had hired Orlando Ashford to handle the day to day operations of Azamara (I believe he has since departed for other opportunities).

 

When it comes to Azamara (a line we like) we have a difficult time thinking that Sycamore has long range plans to operate a 4 ship cruise line.  Also consider that 3 of their 4 ships are 20+ years old, and are not up to the standards of the newer ships utilized by Premium and Luxury lines.  We have long argues that the R ships are always going to be handicapped because of their relatively small cabin bathrooms.

 

Hank

[Mary229]

19 minutes ago, Haljo1935 said:

@Hlitner with the sale of Azamara, I believe they are also privately held with deep pockets. 

They are a venture capital firm.  I am not sure who actually manages the day to day operations.  https://www.sycamorepartners.com/approach
 

Viking and Silversea are among others that are privately held.  Pretty much the big three are the only publicly traded companies that I am aware of.  

[Hlitner]

16 minutes ago, REOVA said:

If you just want something to listen to then yes there are more options but most of the acts are accompanied with recorded music and while the main shows were good, the other venues are crowded. We also don't cruise unless it's Yacht Club which blows away HAL "suites" but the rest of the ship is too big and have their issues as well. Look forward to the evolution of MSC and hope they don't Americanize their cruises here too much. And their customer service (off ship) is the worst. Even my TA cringes when discussing. 

 

 

Correct but what a potential upside for HAL if a sale is completed. (We've all speculating but nothing wrong with dreaming.😉)

Personally, I think they should sell off HAL and keep Seabourn :).  As to MSC Customer Service, it absolutely sucks.  But that has never been a problem for us, since we book them through an excellent cruise agency/agent who is able to deal with them on a day to day basis.  For me, just like when dealing with HAL, it is just a matter of sending a quick e-mail to my cruise agent and let them deal with issues.  I can say, without any hesitation, that our onboard experience in the MSC Yacht Club (on two different ships) completely blows away the best service we have ever had on HAL.  And when cruising in the Yacht Club, there is a 24/7 Concierge Desk (for just the 200 or so in the Yacht Club) just waiting to handle any questions/issues/requests.  Where MSC may have among the worst shoreside customer service, the line really shines...once aboard.    But (and I put this in every post about MSC) we would only recommend this line for those booked in the Yacht Club.  Outside the YC it is a not a line we would ever cruise.

 

Speaking of MSC, are one "take away" from that cruise line is Cacio e Pepe!  One night in the Divina's Yacht Club Restaurant, the Italian Maitre'd made (tableside) his version of cacio e pepe!  While food in the YC is generally OK (not the best), this was among the best pasta preparations we have ever eaten...anywhere!  DW has since managed to duplicate that dish with some trial/error.  After more than 500 days on HAL I can also say there are no HAL recipes that are used in our home.

 

Hank

[Mary229]

1 minute ago, Hlitner said:

Personally, I think they should sell off HAL and keep Seabourn :

I don’t see that happening. If the Saudis are the speculated buyers they likely will want the yachts and the luxury market.  The Dutch heritage would be lost and I sincerely believe that is a major issue.   Seabourn  being refitted to handle up to 1000 passengers and be a branded under Holland and bringing the whole shabang up to and down to premium not luxury fits the CCL model much better.  If this happened I think they would sell off the Volendam and Zaandam.

[HappyInVan]

14 hours ago, Destiny0315 said:

If they have the organization and $$$$ to build new ports why would they not just have new ships built for them too.🤔

 

For people with management experience, starting a major new organization is a daunting task. Inevitably, there will be cost overruns and delays. Thousands of major and minor decisions to be made.

 

Much easier to buy an existing organization with decades of operational experience. Take Explora (announced 2018) as an example. They will be a major new player in the luxury segment. Launching 6 new ships between 2023 and 2028.

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/forum/2550-explora-journeys/

 

Backed by MSC, what could go wrong? They could simply transplant the hotel operations of MSC's Yacht Club. But, Explorer 1 has yet to sail, and numerous itineraries have been cancelled.

 

My encounter with their online site has been educational. First, it tried to price in Euro. Then, USD. Finally recognized that I was a Canadian resident.

 

I tested the booking system with a theoretical booking. Oops, they turned it into a 7 day option. Cannot be cancelled without a phone call. Unable to make another booking for this itinerary.

 

Tried again this evening. Price again in USD. Then, booking system down. To date, I haven't finalized a booking with them, and there are no Roll Calls on Explorer's CC forum.

 

[Hlitner]

2 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

For people with management experience, starting a major new organization is a daunting task. Inevitably, there will be cost overruns and delays. Thousands of major and minor decisions to be made.

 

Much easier to buy an existing organization with decades of operational experience. Take Explora (announced 2018) as an example. They will be a major new player in the luxury segment. Launching 6 new ships between 2023 and 2028.

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/forum/2550-explora-journeys/

 

Backed by MSC, what could go wrong? They could simply transplant the hotel operations of MSC's Yacht Club. But, Explorer 1 has yet to sail, and numerous itineraries have been cancelled.

 

My encounter with their online site has been educational. First, it tried to price in Euro. Then, USD. Finally recognized that I was a Canadian resident.

 

I tested the booking system with a theoretical booking. Oops, they turned it into a 7 day option. Cannot be cancelled without a phone call. Unable to make another booking for this itinerary.

 

Tried again this evening. Price again in USD. Then, booking system down. To date, I haven't finalized a booking with them, and there are no Roll Calls on Explorer's CC forum.

 

Explora's web site booking engine has been an early disaster!  That being said, we had no problem booking our first Explora cruise (for this Sept) by simply asking our favorite cruise agent to take care of the matter.  She has told me that, from her point of view, the Explora customer service folks are wonderful.  And to make matters even much nicer, after we had booked the travel consortium (of which the cruise agency is a member) decided to "sweeten the pot" with a generous OBC.  We are quite excited to try this new product which has some interesting innovations.  For us, the most interesting part is that they do not have a real MDR, but rather a series of smaller dining venues.  They have also hired some fantastic management folks (from Oceania, Ritz Carlton, etc) which we HOPE translates to a good experience aboard.

 

Hank

[Destiny0315]

5 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

 

Much easier to buy an existing organization with decades of operational experience.

Well HAL for example has 15 decades of organizational experience but based on some comments seen in here on a fairly regular basis it still is a work in progress. If the Saudi's were running the operation some heads would roll and maybe literally.🙂

[cruisemom42]

 

Re: Azamara and Sycamore Partners...  SP seems to be the sort of company that specializes in "maximizing profit". I think they feel they can find ways to a) make Azamara operations more profitable and b) market the brand more effectively than RCCL group ever did. At least they do not seem to plan to operationalize the third option such groups pursue, which is dismantling the line and selling off assets....

 

So far, changes at Azamara have been minimal (in line with the changes all lines are experiencing post-Covid), although the last two months have seen the full separation of booking operations and website from the RCCL umbrella. (From past experience in a company that was shuttled from one large big pharma corp to another, such "carve-outs" are not easily achieved. This one has been a bit bumpy.)

 

I hope they will leave the line largely as it is. It has a niche of its own that is slightly reminiscent of "Voyages to Antiquity" (although without the big ticket lecturers), with a major focus on destinations, including quite a few overnights in ports.  It seems to attract a lot of British passengers, as did VTA, and I think in general these pax are more forgiving of ships that are older and that do not look like Las Vegas at sea....which is also fine with me.

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by cruisemom42

[REOVA]

9 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

  We are quite excited to try this new product which has some interesting innovations.  For us, the most interesting part is that they do not have a real MDR, but rather a series of smaller dining venues.  They have also hired some fantastic management folks (from Oceania, Ritz Carlton, etc) which we HOPE translates to a good experience aboard.

 

Hank

Looking forward to your review. Love the concept and smaller ships. While management is key, the crew and staffing needs to be there as well. We met many crew in Yacht Club that are vying for positions on Explora so fingers crossed. 

[BermudaBound2014]

Lots of speculation/discussion which is what the forum is for :). 

 

But in these times of economic distress, the one thing that isn't speculation is that CCL didn't restructure for the fun of it. This isn't a coincidence. 

 

I suspect a long term plan has been set in motion. 

 

CCL's next earning release is scheduled on or around June 23rd. They are expected to post another loss this quarter. In fact, they are expected to post a loss for all of 2023. 

 

While you should never take advice from a stranger on the internet, I would strongly advise anyone to reconsider the purchase of gift cards which offer absolutely no consumer protection.

 

 

 

[Guest ldtr]

5 hours ago, Mary229 said:

In 2016 Idaho was still operating.  Interesting afternoon 

Used to be there and INEL often.

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Re: Azamara and Sycamore Partners...  SP seems to be the sort of company that specializes in "maximizing profit". I think they feel they can find ways to a) make Azamara operations more profitable and b) market the brand more effectively than RCCL group ever did. At least they do not seem to plan to operationalize the third option such groups pursue, which is dismantling the line and selling off assets....

 

So far, changes at Azamara have been minimal (in line with the changes all lines are experiencing post-Covid), although the last two months have seen the full separation of booking operations and website from the RCCL umbrella. (From past experience in a company that was shuttled from one large big pharma corp to another, such "carve-outs" are not easily achieved. This one has been a bit bumpy.)

 

I hope they will leave the line largely as it is. It has a niche of its own that is slightly reminiscent of "Voyages to Antiquity" (although without the big ticket lecturers), with a major focus on destinations, including quite a few overnights in ports.  It seems to attract a lot of British passengers, as did VTA, and I think in general these pax are more forgiving of ships that are older and that do not look like Las Vegas at sea....which is also fine with me.

 

The Sycamore group is following the path thst Athena did with NCl. Buy a cruise line during a troubled period at low price, build it up potentially combining it with other cruise assets and when it's value is maximized take it public and cash out.

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, REOVA said:

Looking forward to your review. Love the concept and smaller ships. While management is key, the crew and staffing needs to be there as well. We met many crew in Yacht Club that are vying for positions on Explora so fingers crossed. 

LOL!  I am looking forward to any review!   The maiden voyage is still about 1 month in the future, and you can be sure that all of we early bookers are very curious to hear what we will get for our money.  I suspect that a large majority of passengers will be Europeans who are familiar with MSC's Yacht Club and trust the management team.  The ship (Explora 1) is still docked at Monfalcone (near the shipyard where it was built) and has completed its sea trials.  

 

Booking a new luxury cruise line and ship, at luxury prices, is an interesting gamble.  They have yet to do any major marketing in North America which is not surprising since, currently, we are talking about a line with 1 ship (900 passengers).  But they will quickly have 3 more sister ships (with two others optioned) and quickly become a major player in the higher end sector of the industry.  While most of the cruise industry has been tightening their belts and trying to cut costs, MSC has continued to spend money like a drunken sailor...with their continued expansion.  Not surprising when the family also owns the largest container ship company in the world.

 

Hank

[REOVA]

19 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

 But they will quickly have 3 more sister ships (with two others optioned) and quickly become a major player in the higher end sector of the industry.  While most of the cruise industry has been tightening their belts and trying to cut costs, MSC has continued to spend money like a drunken sailor...with their continued expansion.  Not surprising when the family also owns the largest container ship company in the world.

 

As with any new venture one can expect some misses on the maiden voyage. And unfortunately quick expansion in most companies leads to problems, especially in current economic times, even if they have piles of money. But hopefully their pay scale (and management style) will attract the best. Either way the shipping company can't (won't) carry the passenger side too many years longer if returns are not there in the future. They will most likely blitz the market initially (loss leader) and then wittle down more efficiently (and increase pricing) as time progresses and demand allows. Similar to their entry into the US market, with ridiculously "low" initial Yacht Club prices/value that can't be touched by others. With a lot of "new" luxury competition, it will be interesting to see how others do and and what the entire cruise industry looks like in 2026. 

[mcrcruiser]

As far as CCL stock ,it makes me lots of money now  . The more companies into cruising the merrier .Saudi cruising could be fun 😀

[JeffElizabeth]

Supposedly the Saudis know the oil will eventually run out so they are trying to diversify and buy into other industries like golf. I was really disappointed by our last Holland America cruise to Hawaii, but we are giving them another chance with the Voyage of the Vikings this Summer. Fingers crossed. 

[ExArkie]

6 hours ago, Mary229 said:

They are a venture capital firm.  I am not sure who actually manages the day to day operations.  https://www.sycamorepartners.com/approach
 

Viking and Silversea are among others that are privately held.  Pretty much the big three are the only publicly traded companies that I am aware of.  

Silversea is owned by RCCL, or at least by the Royal Caribbean Group…not sure of their internal business unit structure.

Edited June 7, 2023 by ExArkie

[Mary229]

10 minutes ago, ExArkie said:

Silversea is owned by RCCL, or at least by the Royal Caribbean Group…not sure of their internal business unit structure.

Missed that acquisition.  Thanks for the correction. 

[Heidi13]

On 6/6/2023 at 3:34 PM, TiogaCruiser said:

So does this result in less upper management, or more?🤔

 

At the reorg creating the Holland America Group, Carnival UK, etc. the management group was reduced, as similar roles from multiple brands with the new groups were assigned to a single manager, in a number of departments. I knew a number of the P&O, Princess & Cunard managers that were re-assigned, let go or retired.

 

If they are creating more groups, the managers may be increasing this time. Unfortunately, everyone I knew is now retired, so I have no contacts left in the office, or on the ships.

[REOVA]

2 hours ago, JeffElizabeth said:

Supposedly the Saudis know the oil will eventually run out so they are trying to diversify and buy into other industries like golf. I was really disappointed by our last Holland America cruise to Hawaii, but we are giving them another chance with the Voyage of the Vikings this Summer. Fingers crossed. 

VoV is a wonderful itinerary. I hear Step One has some new shows but last year they were repeats and HAL seemed to treat the full 35 days as 2 segments so repeated some shows. But the enrichment talks were good as opposed to the shorter cruise offerings. You'll enjoy this cruise. 

[FlaMariner]

Anything that further separates Princess from Holland America Line is a bonus, IMO. 

 

Perhaps this helps keep the Princess Medallion out of our 'dam ships.  LOL. 

[Despegue]

It has been a while since I posted on the HAL boards.

For those who think that a Saudi buyout would be better…be very careful what you wish for...

It will be the end of HAL. Guaranteed. They would not hesitate to scrap all HAL vessels, except maybe the Pinnacle class. 

Saudi’s think about 2 things only: money and prestige. Money they have plenty obviously ( although the average Saudi is NOT  filthy rich). 
Prestige: The elite like to boast with new “toys”  and the Seabourne, fleet fits that profile, but , like small kids, they also bore quickly out of them. They often then let the investment wither without thinking twice, and focus on a new project, until they get bored with that one also, and so on…

 

Now, You might think that I am talking complete nonsense, and that is your good right, but I do work often in Saudi Arabia , and yes, as the Captain of a 500 million USD  piece of machinery 😉, but not owned by Saudis… I work closely with Saudi’s though. 

 

Regarding Saudi’s cruising: They are getting more and more interested in the concept and MSC has a vessel based in Jeddah over winter 😉 …

I will refrain from commenting how the crew likes dealing with Saudi guests as that is a completely different subject, and a sensitive one too. 
 

masalama,

 

Despegue.