Sticker Shock

[grandgeezer]

2 hours ago, Jim_Iain said:

I know we have all recognized the price increases and some cut backs, but I would expect that we will not see any reductions in the near future. 

 

I read an interesting article comparing the prices of Land Based vacations vs Cruises.   Obviously price increases in Hotels and Land Based Resort have increased at a greater rate than what we are seeing within the cruise industry.   Not arguing about being right or wrong but trying to give it some perspective.

 

Royal Caribbean Group CEO Jason Liberty said during the company's third-quarter earnings call that land-based vacations now cost about 40% more than cruises, a number that has stretched from about 20% before the pandemic. 

I don’t believe that for a second. I would like to see how he came up with those numbers. For us, size of room matters, for example, we stay at Crowne Plaza as we get a discount for being a member, when we go to Ft. Lauderdale vs. balcony on a ship. The room is 269 sq. ft vs 195 sq. ft. on the ship. That means we have to book a Sky Suite to get the size we demand. Also, on land we only pay for the food we eat. Normally that’s a light breakfast and a normal dinner, and never at the hotel. I checked rates for October and it comes to about $75 p.p. per day tax included. That leaves several hundred dollars p.p. per day to cover the rest.

They have free internet, a pool with plenty of pool chairs, and plenty f personal space.

[terrydtx]

3 minutes ago, grandgeezer said:

I don’t believe that for a second. I would like to see how he came up with those numbers. For us, size of room matters, for example, we stay at Crowne Plaza as we get a discount for being a member, when we go to Ft. Lauderdale vs. balcony on a ship. The room is 269 sq. ft vs 195 sq. ft. on the ship. That means we have to book a Sky Suite to get the size we demand. Also, on land we only pay for the food we eat. Normally that’s a light breakfast and a normal dinner, and never at the hotel. I checked rates for October and it comes to about $75 p.p. per day tax included. That leaves several hundred dollars p.p. per day to cover the rest.

They have free internet, a pool with plenty of pool chairs, and plenty f personal space.

I agree, we are doing a 10 day driving trip in Australia next February after our two Edge cruises. We are driving from Melbourne to Adelaide and back and staying in as highest rated hotels we can find. With a SUV car rental, hotels, gas, food and local tours we will spend for 10 days 1/3 the cost of our 10 day Sky Suite cruise will cost us.

[mahdnc]

2 hours ago, Jim_Iain said:

I know we have all recognized the price increases and some cut backs, but I would expect that we will not see any reductions in the near future. 

 

I read an interesting article comparing the prices of Land Based vacations vs Cruises.   Obviously price increases in Hotels and Land Based Resort have increased at a greater rate than what we are seeing within the cruise industry.   Not arguing about being right or wrong but trying to give it some perspective.

 

Royal Caribbean Group CEO Jason Liberty said during the company's third-quarter earnings call that land-based vacations now cost about 40% more than cruises, a number that has stretched from about 20% before the pandemic. 

 

When mentioning that during the call he also added that he wants to reduce that value gap between land vacation cost and cruises so that it is closer to the pre-pandemic days.  My guess is that he is not going to work on reducing land vacation prices....

[paulh84]

43 minutes ago, grandgeezer said:

I don’t believe that for a second. I would like to see how he came up with those numbers. For us, size of room matters, for example, we stay at Crowne Plaza as we get a discount for being a member, when we go to Ft. Lauderdale vs. balcony on a ship. The room is 269 sq. ft vs 195 sq. ft. on the ship. That means we have to book a Sky Suite to get the size we demand. Also, on land we only pay for the food we eat. Normally that’s a light breakfast and a normal dinner, and never at the hotel. I checked rates for October and it comes to about $75 p.p. per day tax included. That leaves several hundred dollars p.p. per day to cover the rest.

They have free internet, a pool with plenty of pool chairs, and plenty f personal space.

He’s talking about full service resorts people use as a destination not a budget no frills hotel. Look at an actual beachfront resort in Fort Lauderdale or Miami. The W, Conrad, FountaineBleau, Loews, etc not Crowne Plaza and Holiday Inn Express. 

[markeb]

47 minutes ago, grandgeezer said:

I don’t believe that for a second. I would like to see how he came up with those numbers. For us, size of room matters, for example, we stay at Crowne Plaza as we get a discount for being a member, when we go to Ft. Lauderdale vs. balcony on a ship. The room is 269 sq. ft vs 195 sq. ft. on the ship. That means we have to book a Sky Suite to get the size we demand. Also, on land we only pay for the food we eat. Normally that’s a light breakfast and a normal dinner, and never at the hotel. I checked rates for October and it comes to about $75 p.p. per day tax included. That leaves several hundred dollars p.p. per day to cover the rest.

They have free internet, a pool with plenty of pool chairs, and plenty f personal space.

 

So you're buying on price from businesses that are seeking to target a broad market on price. What Celebrity appears to be trying to do (I have a lot of questions as to whether they're doing it well) is target on a focused, differentiated market that is largely insensitive to price. It's a great business strategy when it works. If they succeed then they don't need you. Bluntly. They probably don't need me either. Whether they can do that long term or not is a question, and whether some of the operational decisions they're currently making (vaping, some of the food choices, etc.) undercut that sort of strategy is another question.

 

Going back to an earlier post, you see Princess as a competitor on price. Does Celebrity? Should they? As long as they sell at current pricing, they've identified a market that wants the differentiated product they're providing and is willing to pay. Not people looking for a discounted rate on a hotel. And a Crowne Plaza is (generally) not a resort property.

[doghog]

6 hours ago, Gracie115 said:

I've been cruising on X since 1998 so have seen LOTS of changes, some good, some bad. 

We started cruising in 1991 and with Celebrity in 1994 on the Zenith. Agree about the changes. We kick and scream about the changes (😉) and then we adjust accordingly. Just like everything else in our lives. Especially the last few years. We too look for value in our cruise choices and why we aren't loyal to anyone cruise line. Once our choices are no longer a good value to us, we'll move on. 

[Luvcrusn]

2 hours ago, markeb said:

Going back to an earlier post, you see Princess as a competitor on price. Does Celebrity? Should they? As long as they sell at current pricing, they've identified a market that wants the differentiated product they're providing and is willing to pay. Not people looking for a discounted rate on a hotel. And a Crowne Plaza is (generally) not a resort property.

The problem is that at the same time as they are hiking the prices, they are watering down the product offering. It is no longer the elevated product that they've been known to provide. Price raises alone do not make a premium cruise line (or even an upper end mid range line). Cutting one thing here or there, okay but cutting lots of things, charging more for lots of things, at the same time as charging a lot more for the cruise fare seems foolhardy.  I guess time will tell. 

We've enjoyed our X cruises in the past. While none of the cuts alone will send us elsewhere, the many little cuts, combined with the many extra charges for things once included, along with the fact that if we booked the identical prime Aqua class cabin and identical add ons for our currently booked 2024 cruise today, it would cost us $4350 over what we paid when we booked it in January. It would also have much less OBC credit. Before booking another X cruise we will be looking at many other options.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Luvcrusn

[markeb]

16 minutes ago, Luvcrusn said:

The problem is that at the same time as they are hiking the prices, they are watering down the product offering. It is no longer the elevated product that they've been known to provide.

 

True, but...

 

I'm a car guy. And actually a BMW guy. Every BMW forum known to man is full of "old guys yelling at clouds" about the 3-Series getting bigger. No more manual transmission. Electric steering. The last good 3-Series was the E46 (OK, I'll largely agree with that, but the coolant system was crap and broke a lot.). Meanwhile, BMW was selling the 3-Series to people who had none of those issues... (The problem now is that the market is going to SUVs, crossovers, and now EVs.) The faithful have screamed for years that the current product wasn't the product BMW was known to provide. And yet they sold more and more cars. The new buyers didn't care, and enough of us old buyers bought into the other improvements.

 

Don't know if the same is true here.

 

If I were in their C-suite I'd have serious concerns that the cumulative impact of a lot of near term operational decisions was diluting the product and could be very detrimental in the long term. I don't really think CC is representative of the market writ large, but as many CC'ers are talking about moving up market (relatively price insensitive) as "down" market. It is at least possible they believe they can compete on product within some price range and give up some percentage of the price shoppers. Time will tell. The price isn't too high if they sell the product...

[Luvcrusn]

33 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

True, but...

 

I'm a car guy. And actually a BMW guy. Every BMW forum known to man is full of "old guys yelling at clouds" about the 3-Series getting bigger. No more manual transmission. Electric steering. The last good 3-Series was the E46 (OK, I'll largely agree with that, but the coolant system was crap and broke a lot.). Meanwhile, BMW was selling the 3-Series to people who had none of those issues... (The problem now is that the market is going to SUVs, crossovers, and now EVs.) The faithful have screamed for years that the current product wasn't the product BMW was known to provide. And yet they sold more and more cars. The new buyers didn't care, and enough of us old buyers bought into the other improvements.

 

Don't know if the same is true here.

 

If I were in their C-suite I'd have serious concerns that the cumulative impact of a lot of near term operational decisions was diluting the product and could be very detrimental in the long term. I don't really think CC is representative of the market writ large, but as many CC'ers are talking about moving up market (relatively price insensitive) as "down" market. It is at least possible they believe they can compete on product within some price range and give up some percentage of the price shoppers. Time will tell. The price isn't too high if they sell the product...

Looking at the current pricing, they only need 1/2 the customers to make the same money. Our cruise with them is still 7 months away and selling for over 200% of the fare. Good luck to them. 

[markeb]

8 minutes ago, Luvcrusn said:

Looking at the current pricing, they only need 1/2 the customers to make the same money. Our cruise with them is still 7 months away and selling for over 200% of the fare. Good luck to them. 

 

Yep. We'll see. But it's not 200% of the fare; it's 200% of YOUR fare...

 

Anyway, our next cruise is November. We'll be in your area on Wednesday night. There's a little concert at the ballpark. Speaking of pricing...

[Luvcrusn]

29 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

Yep. We'll see. But it's not 200% of the fare; it's 200% of YOUR fare...

 

Anyway, our next cruise is November. We'll be in your area on Wednesday night. There's a little concert at the ballpark. Speaking of pricing...

If in January you bought tickets to see The Boss, but in August you could only stay for the first 1/2....😜.....lol...Enjoy!

Edited August 14, 2023 by Luvcrusn

[OysterD]

5 hours ago, grandgeezer said:

I don’t believe that for a second. I would like to see how he came up with those numbers. For us, size of room matters, for example, we stay at Crowne Plaza as we get a discount for being a member, when we go to Ft. Lauderdale vs. balcony on a ship. The room is 269 sq. ft vs 195 sq. ft. on the ship. That means we have to book a Sky Suite to get the size we demand. Also, on land we only pay for the food we eat. Normally that’s a light breakfast and a normal dinner, and never at the hotel. I checked rates for October and it comes to about $75 p.p. per day tax included. That leaves several hundred dollars p.p. per day to cover the rest.

They have free internet, a pool with plenty of pool chairs, and plenty f personal space.

 

That's not even a close comparison. I picked a random weekday date for a crowne plaza in ft lauderdale in Oct and it is $75pp for a night in their cheapest room. No balcony. No view. Nothing included. You're somehow trying to compare a no frills hotel chain bog standard room with nothing included to a sky suite, they're not at all comparable. 

 

I would say a fair comparison would be looking at a resort like Sandals, all inclusive with similar standards. 

 

$3824 for 2 people on 8 night sailing of Beyond in the Caribbean in September 2024, that's in a standard IV cabin with all included. The same 8 nights in a sandals resort in St Lucia is $6348 for 2 people in their cheapest room, no view. 

[C4HCG]

6 hours ago, terrydtx said:

I agree, we are doing a 10 day driving trip in Australia next February after our two Edge cruises. We are driving from Melbourne to Adelaide and back and staying in as highest rated hotels we can find. With a SUV car rental, hotels, gas, food and local tours we will spend for 10 days 1/3 the cost of our 10 day Sky Suite cruise will 

Edited August 14, 2023 by C4HCG

[Lynn2629]

14 hours ago, terrydtx said:

Sticker shock is when a Celebrity Aqua Class and/or a Sky Suite cost more than a Concierge class cabin on Oceania Marina with more days for a similar itinerary.  This is the case with our March 2025 18 night cruise on Oceania VS a 14 night cruise in the Equinox.

Celebrity - which is a premium line, but not in the luxury class - is now more expensive than a true luxury cruise, at least in some cases.

 

I did a comparison to the 11-night Apex cruise in Europe, and the price for a INTERIOR is a whopping $6000. For the same $6000, I can book a 10-night European cruise on Crystal in an OCEANVIEW cabin and enjoy the exceptional food quality and service and amenities of a true luxury line.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Lynn2629

[OysterD]

1 hour ago, Lynn2629 said:

Celebrity - which is a premium line, but not in the luxury class - is now more expensive than a true luxury cruise, at least in some cases.

 

I did a comparison to the 11-night Apex cruise in Europe, and the price for a INTERIOR is a whopping $6000. For the same $6000, I can book a 10-night European cruise on Crystal in an OCEANVIEW cabin and enjoy the exceptional food quality and service and amenities of a true luxury line.

 

 

I was curious because that pricing seemed extreme, so had a quick look. 

 

There is an 11 night Apex cruise from Southampton to Iceland and back next June, its £1,422 pp for an inside; £1,893 for a veranda and £4,043 for AQ (which I admit does seem steep). The most expensive Apex 11 night European cruise next year is next Sept and is £1,936pp for an inside, £2,338 for an IV. Can't see anything close to being $6000pp for an inside!

 

10 night wise on Crystal, there are 3 or 4 European (either Med or northern europe) itineraries next year but they are all priced the same and are all advertised as from £4,200 pp for an ocean view cabin, so more than double the most expensive Apex inside cabin price. 

[Jeremiah1212]

1 hour ago, Lynn2629 said:

Celebrity - which is a premium line, but not in the luxury class - is now more expensive than a true luxury cruise, at least in some cases.

 

I did a comparison to the 11-night Apex cruise in Europe, and the price for a INTERIOR is a whopping $6000. For the same $6000, I can book a 10-night European cruise on Crystal in an OCEANVIEW cabin and enjoy the exceptional food quality and service and amenities of a true luxury line.

 

 

 

Without context these comparisons are useless. It's like saying you can get a Ford for $70k or a Mercedes for $70k so obviously the Mercedes is better. 

 

I'd also be interested in knowing which Crystal itinerary this was. Their few 10 night cruises start at closer to $11k than $6k unless you are talking about a per person price. 

[tfred]

1 hour ago, Lynn2629 said:

Celebrity - which is a premium line, but not in the luxury class - is now more expensive than a true luxury cruise, at least in some cases.

 

I did a comparison to the 11-night Apex cruise in Europe, and the price for a INTERIOR is a whopping $6000. For the same $6000, I can book a 10-night European cruise on Crystal in an OCEANVIEW cabin and enjoy the exceptional food quality and service and amenities of a true luxury line.

 

 

we booked a SS for January 2024 @$8000. The same cruise in 2025 is now $9300. X is starting to get into Silversea and Seabourne range costs per day. I like the X product but for those numbers I would start looking at the next level up. For suite level pax Elite status is almost meaningless. 

 

The luxury lines are generally in harder to get to ports (Barbados e.g.) and are longer.  Not a problem for us as we are retired and live in Florida in the winter and hav the time to spend 12-14 days on board. 

 

RCCL group should really have some tie in with RCL, X and Silversea to keep someone from wandering 

[PTC DAWG]

13 hours ago, grandgeezer said:

I don’t believe that for a second. I would like to see how he came up with those numbers. For us, size of room matters, for example, we stay at Crowne Plaza as we get a discount for being a member, when we go to Ft. Lauderdale vs. balcony on a ship. The room is 269 sq. ft vs 195 sq. ft. on the ship. That means we have to book a Sky Suite to get the size we demand. Also, on land we only pay for the food we eat. Normally that’s a light breakfast and a normal dinner, and never at the hotel. I checked rates for October and it comes to about $75 p.p. per day tax included. That leaves several hundred dollars p.p. per day to cover the rest.

They have free internet, a pool with plenty of pool chairs, and plenty f personal space.

I haven’t seen a decent hotel at that price in 30 years. 

[terrydtx]

24 minutes ago, tfred said:

we booked a SS for January 2024 @$8000. The same cruise in 2025 is now $9300. X is starting to get into Silversea and Seabourne range costs per day. I like the X product but for those numbers I would start looking at the next level up. For suite level pax Elite status is almost meaningless. 

 

The luxury lines are generally in harder to get to ports (Barbados e.g.) and are longer.  Not a problem for us as we are retired and live in Florida in the winter and hav the time to spend 12-14 days on board. 

 

RCCL group should really have some tie in with RCL, X and Silversea to keep someone from wandering 

The Edge New Zealand cruise in March 2025 in a Sky Suite is $7836pp (with a NFD), but we paid $4928pp for the same cruise on the Edge in 2024 in a SS (with a refundable deposit), that is $2908pp or 60% more. I call that sticker shock. BTW the 2025 price is for the same cabin number we have next year.

Edited August 14, 2023 by terrydtx

[PTC DAWG]

Other than TV’s, what hasn’t gone up? 

[Lynn2629]

1 hour ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

 

Without context these comparisons are useless. It's like saying you can get a Ford for $70k or a Mercedes for $70k so obviously the Mercedes is better. 

 

I'd also be interested in knowing which Crystal itinerary this was. Their few 10 night cruises start at closer to $11k than $6k unless you are talking about a per person price. 

Yes, I’m talking about a solo price - $6000 for an oceanview cabin, compared to Celebrity’s $6000 for an interior cabin, and of course Crystal is superior to Celebrity. Not in the same class.

 

It was the 10-night cruise, leaving Sept 26. The pp rate starts at $5300 for double occupancy, which is where you got your $11,000, but it’s only $6000 for solo. The takeaway is that Crystal is very welcoming to solos whereas Celebrity is not.

 

 

[Lynn2629]

1 hour ago, tfred said:

we booked a SS for January 2024 @$8000. The same cruise in 2025 is now $9300. X is starting to get into Silversea and Seabourne range costs per day. I like the X product but for those numbers I would start looking at the next level up. For suite level pax Elite status is almost meaningless. 

 

The luxury lines are generally in harder to get to ports (Barbados e.g.) and are longer.  Not a problem for us as we are retired and live in Florida in the winter and hav the time to spend 12-14 days on board. 

 

RCCL group should really have some tie in with RCL, X and Silversea to keep someone from wandering 

Yes, that was my point exactly. If Celebrity is going to charge the same or MORE than Crystal, I’m going with Crystal. Luxury prices for a luxury experience.

 

 

[Jeremiah1212]

7 minutes ago, Lynn2629 said:

Yes, I’m talking about a solo price - $6000 for an oceanview cabin, compared to Celebrity’s $6000 for an interior cabin, and of course Crystal is superior to Celebrity. Not in the same class.

 

It was the 10-night cruise, leaving Sept 26. The pp rate starts at $5300 for double occupancy, which is where you got your $11,000, but it’s only $6000 for solo. The takeaway is that Crystal is very welcoming to solos whereas Celebrity is not.

 

 

 

So ultimately as I suspected, this is a skewed comparison. For double occupancy the Crystal cruise is still significantly more. 

[cgolf1]

Now that we learned to cut the cord when Disney got too expensive and the cuts diminished the value we will leave X for another line when that time comes. I will admit that first jump after our first 12 cruises with Disney was really tough.

 

When we booked our 2025 trip, X was cheaper than the other lines we were interested in, so we stuck with X. There are a couple of things that X does on the food allergy side, that would see us pay a little more for, but not much. Perhaps we booked early enough to not see the increases, or inside rooms are just cheaper on X. Having sailed HAL this year as well, we got to see the other side so to speak and from the inside view X was still better.

Edited August 14, 2023 by cgolf1

[ECCruise]

On 8/14/2023 at 9:55 AM, PTC DAWG said:

I haven’t seen a decent hotel at that price in 30 years. 

That's $150 per night.

 

I've stayed in wonderful hotels worldwide for that price or less dozens of times in the last 2 years, let alone 10 (or 30).

Japan.  Singapore. Germany. Italy. Greece. Egypt. Australia.  New Zealand. 

 

It's all about shopping and comparisons. And not staying in stupid money properties.