Container Ship Struck Key Bridge in Baltimore, Bridge has Collapsed

[mo&fran]

15 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but let me ask you if you would pay for a bank of batteries and electric motors in your car, just in case the engine fails while you are on the highway?  For the most part, the ship has several layers of redundancy:  two generators on line while maneuvering (even though one could support the full load), another generator on standby to start immediately and come online in typically less than a minute, and finally an emergency generator that will start and come on line in less than 45 seconds.  But, again, even with steering, a ship without propulsion is just a brick with a rudder.  Think of steering your car using the back wheels, and how you would need to anticipate turning to keep the front end from clocking something.  And, even if you restore electrical power, the main engine will have shut down on various safety interlocks, and requires multiple auxiliary systems that will need to be restarted and the interlocks reset.  Unlike your car, the cooling water, lubricating oil, and fuel systems rely on external pumps driven by electric motors.

That is why I asked the question. Thank you.  Now I know something I didn't before. Once an engineer, always an engineer.  Am I correct that the generator powers the fuel pumps as well.

Edited March 28 by mo&fran

[Engineroom Snipe]

6 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I will tend to disagree with the instructor, that in my opinion the best Captains I've sailed with will trust their Chief to be doing all possible, and passing required information to the bridge, and would not want to "get into the weeds" by getting on the phone to the engine room, but let the watch officer relay information, while the Captain retains the "big picture".

If the bells rang in my engine booth, my Craft Master knew I would do everything possible to answer them. If there was an extreme emergency, I would only call the bridge and state what our status was after exhausting every solution that I knew.

 

I agree that the Craft Master is thinking "big picture" and trusted me to do my duty.

 

I was never in the situation like the one described in this scenario.

 

We had a much smaller vessel which in itself can be challenging when operating in heavy seas.

 

For hours, our raw water intakes, which provided cooling water to the heat exchangers for the engines, would suck air as we "surfed" over the crest of waves requiring a purging of air from lines to establish flow. It was everything you could do to not burn yourself with the movement.

 

I never dared question my Craft Master why he was running at flank speed. He had a reason and trusted me to keep the propulsion going.

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, xtremegk said:

 

Lack of incident command? It's been more than 24 hours since the ACOE announced they were in the incident command role.

And having multiple contractors working the site would be the norm,  not a mistake.  Just like a home renovation,  there is a general contractor and subcontractors. 

[xtremegk]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

And having multiple contractors working the site would be the norm,  not a mistake.  Just like a home renovation,  there is a general contractor and subcontractors. 

 

Unfortunately all too familiar with this as I work in an industry that follows federal ICS structure during major events. We have to bring in contractors every time due to the sheer volume of work needing to be done in a shortened period of time.

[toad455]

1 hour ago, BND said:

Yes.  Legend has more passengers than Vision. I'm also pretty sure there are more than 1200 spots at Baltimore and the lots are routinely full or close to it.

 

I also don't ever remember Norfolk having more than one ship sailing from there. It's always been a limited summer home port for Carnival. Has Royal ever sailed from there?

[OnTheJourney]

2 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

If it was a meatball sandwich

Yeah but a cold one? 

Edited March 28 by OnTheJourney

[Biker19]

1 minute ago, toad455 said:

Has Royal ever sailed from there?

Maybe not, but it has been used as a port stop. 

[BND]

1 minute ago, toad455 said:

 

I also don't ever remember Norfolk having more than one ship sailing from there. It's always been a limited summer home port for Carnival. Has Royal ever sailed from there?

I think they have for a few sailings, but not for a few years from what I remember.

[chengkp75]

7 minutes ago, Engineroom Snipe said:

I would only call the bridge and state what our status was after exhausting every solution that I knew.

Personally, I would disagree with this, I would have my watch engineer on the phone relaying the status to the bridge, so that the Captain has data of what we are doing, in real time, so he can get a feel for when the problem may be resolved, as this can affect his decision making in real time.

 

4 minutes ago, xtremegk said:

 

Unfortunately all too familiar with this as I work in an industry that follows federal ICS structure during major events. We have to bring in contractors every time due to the sheer volume of work needing to be done in a shortened period of time.

One company may have better equipment and experience with salvaging grounded ships, while another may have better equipment and experience with underwater salvage and wreck removal.  But, yes, trying to get enough equipment and personnel on scene quickly and correctly in a short time is challenging.

[xtremegk]

4 minutes ago, toad455 said:

Has Royal ever sailed from there?

 

I sailed on Grandeur from there to Bermuda in 2008.

[CruiseBride926]

On board and the captain has

confirmed we’re getting off in Norfolk.

[OnTheJourney]

Just now, CruiseBride926 said:

On board and the captain has

confirmed we’re getting off in Norfolk.

Yep...just got an email from my sister-in-law, who's also onboard. You beat me to it...

[BND]

Our set sail passes say Norfolk.  Kind of surprised.

[Starry Eyes]

16 minutes ago, toad455 said:

 

I also don't ever remember Norfolk having more than one ship sailing from there. It's always been a limited summer home port for Carnival. Has Royal ever sailed from there?

Royal has sailed from Norfolk previously, as mentioned by another poster.  Her is an old announcement, circa 2007 for the 2008 sailings:

“We are thrilled to bring Grandeur of the Seas to the cities of Norfolk, Virginia and Baltimore, Maryland in 2008,” Bauer added. “The Royal Caribbean itineraries from these two major home ports complement the variety of cruising options available to travelers along the Eastern Seaboard. Grandeur will sail roundtrip from Norfolk’s newly constructed Half Moone Cruise and Celebration Center on five-night Bermuda cruise getaways, eight- and nine-night voyages to New England and Canada, and nine-night Eastern Caribbean sailings. From Baltimore, Grandeur will sail roundtrip on five-night voyages to Bermuda and nine-night cruise vacations to the Eastern Caribbean. Prices start at $649 per person, double occupancy.”

 

So, Royal Caribbean did use the Norfolk terminal years ago.  Best wishes to those on the current and upcoming Vision cruises.

Edited March 28 by Starry Eyes

[Engineroom Snipe]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Personally, I would disagree with this, I would have my watch engineer on the phone relaying the status to the bridge, so that the Captain has data of what we are doing, in real time, so he can get a feel for when the problem may be resolved, as this can affect his decision making in real time.

 Understood.

 

With a nine man crew on an 80 footer, we did not have the layers of a larger ship.

 

We were a mine hunter and had a small crew to minimize losses should we be compromised.

 

Either I or my "watch engineer" were the only ones tending four engines and two generators.

 

Not arguing your point but understand that some of us did not have many resources to get the job done like larger ships.

 

In many cases, the Craft Master had to directly pick up the bridge phone because everyone else was occupied with their duties.

[A&L_Ont]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

How does he know that there isn't an incident commander?  What is his clearance to know this information?  I sure don't know whether there is or not, but given past experiences, I know there will be one.  His comments about "dragging" the bridge out of the channel is just rubbish.  That is a certain way to leave potentially damaging debris behind.  Likewise his comments about "blowing up" the bridge.  He's showing his unfamiliarity with modern salvage operations, where the bridge will not be "blown up", but will be cut up by divers using thermite charges which will work like cutting torches, but with the safety of the divers not being there working the torches.  Also, anything dealing with the bridge repair outside the channel (i.e. the area of the main span of the bridge) will be as he correctly notes is the jurisdiction of MDOT, but it is by far a secondary concern, and not in the slightest a concern with regards to opening the channel.

 

Time to fire up your camera Chief. YouTube is waiting and I’d subscribe.

[mo&fran]

When I was in engineering school, there was a saying  "them that can, do, them that can't , teach" , do I sense a little of that here with our purported "experts".

[smokeybandit]

26 minutes ago, CruiseBride926 said:

On board and the captain has

confirmed we’re getting off in Norfolk.

Are they cutting your cruise short a day because of it?

[chengkp75]

26 minutes ago, Engineroom Snipe said:

 Understood.

 

With a nine man crew on an 80 footer, we did not have the layers of a larger ship.

 

We were a mine hunter and had a small crew to minimize losses should we be compromised.

 

Either I or my "watch engineer" were the only ones tending four engines and two generators.

 

Not arguing your point but understand that some of us did not have many resources to get the job done like larger ships.

 

In many cases, the Craft Master had to directly pick up the bridge phone because everyone else was occupied with their duties.

I did some Reserve time on an Acme class minesweeper, but even then we had a complement of about 60.  Navy manning levels have always left me speechless.  The vast majority of ships I worked on in the Merchant Marine, and the Dali would be similar, would have a total engineering complement of 4 officers and 4 ratings.  As noted in many reports, the Dali has a total crew complement of 21.

[Engineroom Snipe]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I did some Reserve time on an Acme class minesweeper, but even then we had a complement of about 60.  Navy manning levels have always left me speechless.  The vast majority of ships I worked on in the Merchant Marine, and the Dali would be similar, would have a total engineering complement of 4 officers and 4 ratings.  As noted in many reports, the Dali has a total crew complement of 21.

COOPMINE UNIT 2205. We were how can I say it delicately, "expendable". Most of the Navy did not know we existed at the time.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, mo&fran said:

That is why I asked the question. Thank you.  Now I know something I didn't before. Once an engineer, always an engineer.  Am I correct that the generator powers the fuel pumps as well.

Didn't see your last question here.  Yes, the main engine relies on motor driven fuel pumps, oil pumps, water pumps, air compressors (both for starting and for control). The engine itself does nothing but drive the propeller.  But, generator engines are different, in that they basically have self-driven fuel, oil, water systems.  But, then there are further "layers" of systems that interact as well.  For example, the main engine has a "high temp" motor driven water pump and system that cools the engine directly (generator engine has engine driven high temp pump).  These "high temp" cooling systems are cooled in turn by a "low temp" cooling system with motor driven pumps (common to both main engine and generators).  The "low temp" cooling loop is then cooled by the "sea water" cooling system with further motor driven pumps.

[mo&fran]

29 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Didn't see your last question here.  Yes, the main engine relies on motor driven fuel pumps, oil pumps, water pumps, air compressors (both for starting and for control). The engine itself does nothing but drive the propeller.  But, generator engines are different, in that they basically have self-driven fuel, oil, water systems.  But, then there are further "layers" of systems that interact as well.  For example, the main engine has a "high temp" motor driven water pump and system that cools the engine directly (generator engine has engine driven high temp pump).  These "high temp" cooling systems are cooled in turn by a "low temp" cooling system with motor driven pumps (common to both main engine and generators).  The "low temp" cooling loop is then cooled by the "sea water" cooling system with further motor driven pumps.

So there are no parasitic losses on the drive engine at all.  

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, mo&fran said:

So there are no parasitic losses on the drive engine at all.  

No.  Even at low speeds, where the turbocharger does not have enough energy to provide sufficient air to the engine, there are motor driven fans to provide that air.

[mo&fran]

7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No.  Even at low speeds, where the turbocharger does not have enough energy to provide sufficient air to the engine, there are motor driven fans to provide that air.

Doesn't that energy come from the generator? does that mean if you want to stop, the engine turns off, or is there a clutch between the engine and propellor shaft.

[chengkp75]

3 minutes ago, mo&fran said:

Doesn't that energy come from the generator? does that mean if you want to stop, the engine turns off, or is there a clutch between the engine and propellor shaft.

When the propeller stops, the engine stops. When the propeller goes astern, the engine rotates in the other direction.  The engine is directly bolted to the propeller shaft.

 

Not sure what energy you are talking about.  Energy to drive the turbocharger comes from the main engine's exhaust gas spinning a turbine which is shafted to a compressor, which compresses the combustion air for the main engine.  So, when it starts, there is no energy from the exhaust (there isn't any exhaust), so the "auxiliary blowers" switch on and compress some air for the engine.  As the exhaust gas builds up in volume and temperature, the blowers switch off, and the turbo spins on its own, driven by the exhaust.