Container Ship Struck Key Bridge in Baltimore, Bridge has Collapsed

[ticketsunlimited]

6 minutes ago, gatour said:

They just announced they are transitioning to a salvage operation  That implies to me that the will be removing steel keeping in account there sre still bodies present.

Yes, sounds like they are in the mind set that they are in the vehicles like the other two that were recovered today.  Those cars are underneath a lot of steel they said on the news tonight.  All makes sense.

[TPKeller]

2 hours ago, Engineroom Snipe said:

A three month estimate takes us to June 12th, 2024.

 

I'll chime in.  I think the channel will be open long before that.  Remember the channel is only the section between the two bridge supports on either side of the ship.  They can leave the rest of the bridge outside the channel to be removed later.

The NTSB video posted earlier (well worth the watch, by the way) never caught a view of the whole channel, but I snagged two screen shots that show both sections of the bridge that are blocking the channel.  From the twisted angles of the truss, it appears that the two sections are mostly already separated (broken apart from each other), although they could still be connected below the water.  They are obviously not completely connected as they were before they fell.  That means fewer points to cut them apart.

I think it all comes down to whether they can bring in strong enough crane(s) to lift the two sections intact.  I honestly don't know if they can, but my hunch is that they can.  If they have to disassemble the girders, then the time extends, but they won't take them down to the individual girders, just to chunks light enough to be lifted by whatever cranes they do get.

 

Space to store them on land is not an issue.  All they have to do is get the steel out of the channel.  They could even dump it a few hundred yards off to the side if they have to. They'll clean the parts up later.

There's also the concrete roadway that is laying on the bottom.  If those pieces broke up or mostly fell flat, they might just leave it for later as well.  Losing a foot or two of channel depth to save a month's closure is well worth it.  No doubt they will "sonar the area to death" to make sure there are no hazards... but as important as this is, I think it'll be done in weeks, not months.

 

As acknowledged by all... we can speculate, but only time will tell!

 

Theron

 

[Engineroom Snipe]

8 minutes ago, TPKeller said:

 

I'll chime in.  I think the channel will be open long before that.  Remember the channel is only the section between the two bridge supports on either side of the ship.  They can leave the rest of the bridge outside the channel to be removed later.

The NTSB video posted earlier (well worth the watch, by the way) never caught a view of the whole channel, but I snagged two screen shots that show both sections of the bridge that are blocking the channel.  From the twisted angles of the truss, it appears that the two sections are mostly already separated (broken apart from each other), although they could still be connected below the water.  They are obviously not completely connected as they were before they fell.  That means fewer points to cut them apart.

I think it all comes down to whether they can bring in strong enough crane(s) to lift the two sections intact.  I honestly don't know if they can, but my hunch is that they can.  If they have to disassemble the girders, then the time extends, but they won't take them down to the individual girders, just to chunks light enough to be lifted by whatever cranes they do get.

 

Space to store them on land is not an issue.  All they have to do is get the steel out of the channel.  They could even dump it a few hundred yards off to the side if they have to. They'll clean the parts up later.

There's also the concrete roadway that is laying on the bottom.  If those pieces broke up or mostly fell flat, they might just leave it for later as well.  Losing a foot or two of channel depth to save a month's closure is well worth it.  No doubt they will "sonar the area to death" to make sure there are no hazards... but as important as this is, I think it'll be done in weeks, not months.

 

As acknowledged by all... we can speculate, but only time will tell!

 

Theron

 

I have repetitively stated in so many words, "I hope I am wrong."

 

My OPINION is that everyone is being overly optimistic

 

Unless you have been directly involved with something like this, you are just speculating.

 

Again, I hope I am wrong and have to eat crow.

 

That would be good for everyone involved.

 

Has anyone on this board ever been involved with doing anything underwater in such a complex situation to understand the total logistics necessary to make this happen under sixty days?

[TPKeller]

12 minutes ago, Engineroom Snipe said:

My OPINION is that everyone is being overly optimistic

 

Yep!  And I'm just chiming in with mine!  🙂

 

Theron

[Another_Critic]

25 minutes ago, TPKeller said:

 

I'll chime in.  I think the channel will be open long before that.  Remember the channel is only the section between the two bridge supports on either side of the ship.  They can leave the rest of the bridge outside the channel to be removed later.

 

[snip]

Space to store them on land is not an issue.  All they have to do is get the steel out of the channel.  They could even dump it a few hundred yards off to the side if they have to. They'll clean the parts up later.

There's also the concrete roadway that is laying on the bottom.  If those pieces broke up or mostly fell flat, they might just leave it for later as well.  Losing a foot or two of channel depth to save a month's closure is well worth it. 

 

 

I don't think they will open the channel if there is any known debris in the water.  Unless they can anchor the debris, they will not want to risk the debris moving into the channel (too much risk).

[boscobeans]

1 hour ago, TPKeller said:

 

I'll chime in.  I think the channel will be open long before that.  Remember the channel is only the section between the two bridge supports on either side of the ship.  They can leave the rest of the bridge outside the channel to be removed later.

The NTSB video posted earlier (well worth the watch, by the way) never caught a view of the whole channel, but I snagged two screen shots that show both sections of the bridge that are blocking the channel.  From the twisted angles of the truss, it appears that the two sections are mostly already separated (broken apart from each other), although they could still be connected below the water.  They are obviously not completely connected as they were before they fell.  That means fewer points to cut them apart.

I think it all comes down to whether they can bring in strong enough crane(s) to lift the two sections intact.  I honestly don't know if they can, but my hunch is that they can.  If they have to disassemble the girders, then the time extends, but they won't take them down to the individual girders, just to chunks light enough to be lifted by whatever cranes they do get.

 

Space to store them on land is not an issue.  All they have to do is get the steel out of the channel.  They could even dump it a few hundred yards off to the side if they have to. They'll clean the parts up later.

There's also the concrete roadway that is laying on the bottom.  If those pieces broke up or mostly fell flat, they might just leave it for later as well.  Losing a foot or two of channel depth to save a month's closure is well worth it.  No doubt they will "sonar the area to death" to make sure there are no hazards... but as important as this is, I think it'll be done in weeks, not months.

 

As acknowledged by all... we can speculate, but only time will tell!

 

Theron

 

Those sections are all under extreme stress that would make it way too dangerous to attempt cutting the downed bridge into manageable pieces with divers.

Best bet would be to have engineers decide the best way to section the mess up into pieces for removal and use explosives to do the cutting with much less danger to humans.

Edited March 28 by boscobeans

[HBE4]

5 hours ago, Engineroom Snipe said:

"...or something like that is what I'm hearing,..."

 

Who is telling this person that above?

 

4 hours ago, Jenna1983 said:

Bloomberg paywall article 

 

The same quote can be found here:

 

https://www.ajot.com/news/port-of-baltimore-may-reopen-in-six-weeks-dhl-executive-says

 

“I don’t think this closure is going to last that long, maybe six weeks or something like that is what I’m hearing,” said Jim Monkmeyer, president of transportation at DHL Supply Chain, a Deutsche Post unit based near Columbus, Ohio. “I’m hearing May – nobody is saying when in May — that’s why I’m saying six weeks.”

 

@Engineroom Snipe Since you are betting the house - whether it be a birdhouse, dog house, house wine - go with the "Or something like that" 🙂

 

I'm sure the guy is privvy to more information from on-site experts than anybody on this forum but he is president of a shipping company whose profits are about to take a hit.  I'm sure he's been fielding calls from nervous investors & customers so he's trying to put a positive spin on things. Just my own cynical interpretation.

 

Edited March 28 by HBE4

[HBE4]

I found this in the CNN Breaking News section. It's a few hours old so you'll have to page down a ways.

Looks like they may try a phased reopening by having one-way traffic first while continuing removal to allow two-way traffic.

 

Here's how the Army Corps of Engineers plan to clear the shipping channel

From CNN's Aditi Sangal

 

More than 1,000 US Army Corps of Engineers personnel were activated to help clear the critical shipping channel where Baltimore's Key Bridge collapsed.

Lt. Gen. Scott Spellmon, commander and chief of engineers, explained the team will approach the mission in three steps. Here's what they are:

 

• Step 1: Get the steel trust out of a 700-foot-wide by 50-foot-deep channel, and examine what parts of the concrete are still at the bottom. "Any piece of concrete, any piece of steel on the bottom is just as much as of a hazard as that in the channel," Spellmon said. This step will allow "one-way traffic going in and out of the Port of Baltimore again," he said.

 

• Step 2: Work closely with the Coast Guard to stabilize containers on top of the ship. Then the trust of the bridge that is still on top of the ship needs to be taken off "so it can be tugged to a safe part of the port," Spellmon said. "By removing the vessel, that will allow us to reopen two-way traffic."

 

• Step 3: Take out the remaining 2,900 feet of steel and all the associated concrete and roadway that's at the river bottom.

 

"We're up to this task. We have what we need," Spellmon said.

 

--------------------------------------

 

Shall we start placing bets as to the timeline for one-way traffic & two-way traffic? 😉

 

Edited March 28 by HBE4

[Sunshine3601]

2 hours ago, Another_Critic said:

 

"The search for six people presumed dead became a recovery effort in the wake of the collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge Tuesday. Two were recovered in a red pickup truck Wednesday morning."  = Still four missing

 

"Officials say that eight people were working on the bridge at the time of the collapse. Two people were rescued from the water shortly after Tuesday's collapse. One of the rescued workers was unhurt, the other was treated at the University of Maryland Medical Center and has been discharged." 

So very sad they were not able to get off the bridge quick enough.

 

I was under the initial understanding there was possibly a tractor trailer and a couple other vehicles on the bridge at time of the collapse.   Happy to hear that wasn't the case.

 

[smokeybandit]

There's a news article about an Uber driver who was going to go over the bridge, but the driver's passenger was late and police had just closed the bridge when they got there. How fortuitous.

[TPKeller]

1 hour ago, smokeybandit said:

There's a news article about an Uber driver who was going to go over the bridge, but the driver's passenger was late and police had just closed the bridge when they got there. How fortuitous.

 

I don't think it was a crucial difference.  I believe all the vehicles that were in front of the police closure made it safely at least past the point of collapse.  I haven't seen any reports on whether there was still traffic on the parts that did not collapse, but no matter, they were fine.

 

Theron

[Engineroom Snipe]

8 hours ago, HBE4 said:

I found this in the CNN Breaking News section. It's a few hours old so you'll have to page down a ways.

Looks like they may try a phased reopening by having one-way traffic first while continuing removal to allow two-way traffic.

 

Here's how the Army Corps of Engineers plan to clear the shipping channel

From CNN's Aditi Sangal

 

More than 1,000 US Army Corps of Engineers personnel were activated to help clear the critical shipping channel where Baltimore's Key Bridge collapsed.

Lt. Gen. Scott Spellmon, commander and chief of engineers, explained the team will approach the mission in three steps. Here's what they are:

 

• Step 1: Get the steel trust out of a 700-foot-wide by 50-foot-deep channel, and examine what parts of the concrete are still at the bottom. "Any piece of concrete, any piece of steel on the bottom is just as much as of a hazard as that in the channel," Spellmon said. This step will allow "one-way traffic going in and out of the Port of Baltimore again," he said.

 

• Step 2: Work closely with the Coast Guard to stabilize containers on top of the ship. Then the trust of the bridge that is still on top of the ship needs to be taken off "so it can be tugged to a safe part of the port," Spellmon said. "By removing the vessel, that will allow us to reopen two-way traffic."

 

• Step 3: Take out the remaining 2,900 feet of steel and all the associated concrete and roadway that's at the river bottom.

 

"We're up to this task. We have what we need," Spellmon said.

 

--------------------------------------

 

Shall we start placing bets as to the timeline for one-way traffic & two-way traffic? 😉

 

 

As I have stated, I hope I am wrong

 

I have a vacation house so I will not be without shelter.

[BND]

8 hours ago, TPKeller said:

 

I don't think it was a crucial difference.  I believe all the vehicles that were in front of the police closure made it safely at least past the point of collapse.  I haven't seen any reports on whether there was still traffic on the parts that did not collapse, but no matter, they were fine.

 

Theron

There wasn't any other traffic on the bridge except for the workers vehicles.  Traffic was stopped in time.  If you watch the video you can see a break in traffic by the time the ship hit.

[toad455]

Why weren't the construction workers told to get off the bridge? They were apparently on a break and the six that died were in their cars keeping warm.

 

On another note, Vision passengers are saying they'll dock in Bayonne. I'd assume their next two cruises prior to drydock will sail out of there, too.

[mo&fran]

10 minutes ago, toad455 said:

Why weren't the construction workers told to get off the bridge? They were apparently on a break and the six that died were in their cars keeping warm.

 

On another note, Vision passengers are saying they'll dock in Bayonne. I'd assume their next two cruises prior to drydock will sail out of there, too.

Story I heard was the police were on the way to tell them but it was too late.

[wrp96]

10 minutes ago, toad455 said:

Why weren't the construction workers told to get off the bridge? They were apparently on a break and the six that died were in their cars keeping warm.

 

 

Police officers were getting in their cars to go warn the construction workers when the bridge collapsed.  They just didn't have enough time.   

[TPKeller]

Here's a thought for you to ponder.

Maryland typically provides police cars with flashing lights to stand watch at construction sites.  I don't live there, but I do remember seeing this frequently as I have driven through there.

One of my initial questions was 'how did they get cops to both sides of the bridge so fast to be able to stop traffic? All in about 2 or 3 minutes?'

Then I realized... it was those construction workers being there that had the cops there already!

 

In a way, those construction workers saved the lives of who-knows-how-many more ordinary drivers might have been on that bridge otherwise!  Had there been no work crew, there would have been no cops stationed at the end of the bridge, and very likely no way to stop traffic in time to clear the bridge of ordinary traffic.

 

We know the construction workers were lost.  They were working in the middle, and there just wasn't time to warn them.  But in a way, those lives saved countless others.

Theron

[OnTheJourney]

With all this speculation, maybe CC should get up a pool on when it'll all be done...could be more exciting than doing NCAA brackets. 

 

All joking aside, most tragic for the construction workers. No warning whatsoever of what was about to happen for them.

Edited March 28 by OnTheJourney

[time4u2go]

25 minutes ago, TPKeller said:

Here's a thought for you to ponder.

Maryland typically provides police cars with flashing lights to stand watch at construction sites.  I don't live there, but I do remember seeing this frequently as I have driven through there.

One of my initial questions was 'how did they get cops to both sides of the bridge so fast to be able to stop traffic? All in about 2 or 3 minutes?'

Then I realized... it was those construction workers being there that had the cops there already!

 

In a way, those construction workers saved the lives of who-knows-how-many more ordinary drivers might have been on that bridge otherwise!  Had there been no work crew, there would have been no cops stationed at the end of the bridge, and very likely no way to stop traffic in time to clear the bridge of ordinary traffic.

 

We know the construction workers were lost.  They were working in the middle, and there just wasn't time to warn them.  But in a way, those lives saved countless others.

Theron

So you're saying that the police were at the construction site then went to the ends of the bridge to stop traffic?  This doesn't align with the story that a police officer was about to drive onto the bridge to warn the construction workers.  If the police were at the construction site, it seems like they would have warned the construction workers first.

 

Edited March 28 by time4u2go

[TPKeller]

4 minutes ago, time4u2go said:

So you're saying that the police were at the construction site then went to the ends of the bridge to stop traffic?  This doesn't align with the story that a police officer was about to drive onto the bridge to warn the construction workers.  If they police were at the construction site, it seems like they would have warned the construction workers first.

 

 

No.  I think the police were at the two ends of the bridge.  They typically set up at the beginning of the work zone to alert approaching drivers.

ETA: And even if they were somewhere on the bridge, their first priority would have been to get back to the end to stop traffic.  From the radio transcripts, I'm not even sure the construction workers would have left.  The dispatcher basically said something like "let them know" and "see if..." you can get them off the bridge temporarily.

 

Theron

Edited March 28 by TPKeller

[Jimbo]

1 hour ago, mo&fran said:

Story I heard was the police were on the way to tell them but it was too late.

1 hour ago, wrp96 said:

 

Police officers were getting in their cars to go warn the construction workers when the bridge collapsed.  They just didn't have enough time.   

Why wasn't the supervisor of the crew contacting them to get off the bridge, they should have got the call the same time the police got the call.

19 minutes ago, TPKeller said:

Here's a thought for you to ponder.

Maryland typically provides police cars with flashing lights to stand watch at construction sites.  I don't live there, but I do remember seeing this frequently as I have driven through there.

One of my initial questions was 'how did they get cops to both sides of the bridge so fast to be able to stop traffic? All in about 2 or 3 minutes?'

Then I realized... it was those construction workers being there that had the cops there already!

 

In a way, those construction workers saved the lives of who-knows-how-many more ordinary drivers might have been on that bridge otherwise!  Had there been no work crew, there would have been no cops stationed at the end of the bridge, and very likely no way to stop traffic in time to clear the bridge of ordinary traffic.

 

We know the construction workers were lost.  They were working in the middle, and there just wasn't time to warn them.  But in a way, those lives saved countless others.

Theron

I believe there is always Bridge Patrol Cars close by at both ends(Northbound and Southbound) of bridges like this to shut down things quick incase of vehicle accidents and such. That is why the patrol cars on both ends were already in place so quickly, If patching say on one side of the bridge(northbound side), you wouldn't need any patrol car on other end(southbound side) to do patch work on northbound side.

 

Here in Virginia where there are lots of tunnels going through mountains, the tunnels are monitored 24/7 plus cars stationed at each end of the tunnels incase of problems.

[Jimbo]

7 minutes ago, OnTheJourney said:

With all this speculation, maybe CC should get up a pool on when it'll all be done...could be more exciting than doing NCAA brackets. 

 

All joking aside, most tragic for the construction workers. No warning whatsoever of what was about to happen for them.

How about a warning of a large ship coming at the bridge in the wrong area(not center of bridge where ships normally go through at)............That would have gave me enough warning to get the heck out of there as fast as I can!

[OnTheJourney]

4 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

How about a warning of a large ship coming at the bridge in the wrong area(not center of bridge where ships normally go through at)............That would have gave me enough warning to get the heck out of there as fast as I can!

True, but would your typical construction worker - especially any that are used to working on or around the bridge - have even paid any attention to the river traffic. I agree though - I would have made a run for it if possible. LONG bridge though. They were working in the middle area I believe (?) By car, sure. Totally unsuspecting anything though. "Just another day at the office", as it were.

[Jimbo]

16 minutes ago, OnTheJourney said:

True, but would your typical construction worker - especially any that are used to working on or around the bridge - have even paid any attention to the river traffic. I agree though - I would have made a run for it if possible. LONG bridge though. They were working in the middle area I believe (?) By car, sure. Totally unsuspecting anything though. "Just another day at the office", as it were.

They were on their break, I would have been noticing  this big ?[(] boat sailing into the wrong area to go under the bridge. That is for sure!

[smokeybandit]

26 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

How about a warning of a large ship coming at the bridge in the wrong area(not center of bridge where ships normally go through at)............That would have gave me enough warning to get the heck out of there as fast as I can!

There were some reports they were on their lunch break (which explains why the first two victims found were found in their truck), so they may not have been as attentive to their surroundings.

Edited March 28 by smokeybandit