puzzums Posted July 11 #1 Share Posted July 11 Hello, I recently came off an Alaskan cruise aboard the Royal Princess. On sea days, with everyone aboard, I nearly lost my mind with the crush of people everywhere and that is a ship of only about 3600 passengers. All the major cruise lines are in a seemingly never ending competition to see who can build the biggest ship with the passenger/crew capacity coming in at the size of a small city, and with a ton of garish entertainment crowding the top deck. The only small ships, those around the 2000-ish passenger mark, are all quite old and likely to be decommissioned soon. Even the Royal Princess was a bit tired looking (I did still have an overall very good experience with her). My question is, does anyone forsee brand new small ships ever being built again by Royal Caribbean, Princess, Carnival etc - the mainstream-type - cruise lines? Yes, I know there are other choices, such as Viking Ocean Cruises and whatnot but they tend to be not as budget friendly as the mainstream lines. So, just something I was musing about and wondering what other’s might think. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Essiesmom Posted July 11 #2 Share Posted July 11 Totally agree with you, but it’s economies of scale. Like carpooling. The more people you can pile in, the less expensive it is to transport them. EM 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipgeeks Posted July 11 #3 Share Posted July 11 There is a discussion of this question on Royal Caribbean, re the future "Discovery Class" ships. ("Is RC building any more small ships?") Economy of scale is certainly a factor. (And apparently, some people just love that crush of thousands of passengers.) In favor of smaller ships is the fact that some popular homeports have bridge height limits, and some cruise ports appear to be limiting the size of ships, or will do so in the future. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Tapi Posted July 11 #4 Share Posted July 11 (edited) Holland America has newbuilds that are less than 100,000 tons and hold about 2,600 passengers (small by today's standards). Their pricing is similar to Princess, and although they're considered an "old people" cruise line, we've had an absolutely wonderful time sailing on this cruise line as a family of 4 with two young children. Our last sailing on Holland America was aboard the Nieuw Statendam, and it easily beat any cruise that we've taken on any of the newest and biggest ships. Not too big, not too small, tasteful, and the perfect combination of modern technology and vintage nostalgia. If I could design the perfect cruise ship, it would look something like this class of ship. Edited July 11 by Tapi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Posted July 11 #5 Share Posted July 11 (edited) 9 hours ago, puzzums said: Hello, I recently came off an Alaskan cruise aboard the Royal Princess. On sea days, with everyone aboard, I nearly lost my mind with the crush of people everywhere and that is a ship of only about 3600 passengers. All the major cruise lines are in a seemingly never ending competition to see who can build the biggest ship with the passenger/crew capacity coming in at the size of a small city, and with a ton of garish entertainment crowding the top deck. The only small ships, those around the 2000-ish passenger mark, are all quite old and likely to be decommissioned soon. Even the Royal Princess was a bit tired looking (I did still have an overall very good experience with her). My question is, does anyone forsee brand new small ships ever being built again by Royal Caribbean, Princess, Carnival etc - the mainstream-type - cruise lines? Yes, I know there are other choices, such as Viking Ocean Cruises and whatnot but they tend to be not as budget friendly as the mainstream lines. So, just something I was musing about and wondering what other’s might think. Thanks. Like many people you want a cheap cruise. Big ships can offer you a cheap cruise and still make a profit. Small ships can offer you a cheap cruise and lose money. If you are buying cruise line stocks, which one will you choose to buy? The bigger the ship, the lower the costs, and higher the profits. The smallest mass market ship that can make any profit at all is around 2,500 passengers and 85,000 tons. A 5,000 passenger ship at around 160,000 tons makes a massive profit every week. A small ship that offers a luxury cruise and charges 10 times more can make a small profit. If you own a cruise line and want to stay in business, what size ship will you build? Edited July 11 by Donald 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BklynBoy8 Posted July 11 #6 Share Posted July 11 We sail on the Queen Mary 2 with the passenger capacity of 2620 and never feel crowded. Granted in some places large groups gather like the Kings Court Buffet and Theater and Pool Side with is expected but can be less at other times. We are not ones attracted to these "MEGA" ships and do agree to remain with those around 2500 passengers. There will be a time we will have to face a change in decision but are assure we will still find a ship to our liking. I have read many reviews and there are those that do agree to the negativity of these Mega size. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcook Posted July 11 #7 Share Posted July 11 (edited) I would be surprised if the mainstream lines build a new ship carrying less than 2500 pax in the foreseeable future. Not only are bigger ships cheaper to run, but most of their customers prefer the larger ships with all the “stuff” and are willing to pay more to sail. I think the best hope for people who enjoy affordable smaller ships is for a new cruise line choosing to cater to that market. Need to keep an eye on Margarita at Sea to see how that works out. As a side note, I have been sailing giant 4,000+ pax ships lately and haven’t had a problem with crowds. If an area gets too crowded, there’s always someplace else to go. Edited July 11 by wcook 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leaveitallbehind Posted July 11 #8 Share Posted July 11 To echo previous comments, there is discussion regarding RCCL that has been voiced as well by Michael Bayley of a current feasibility study for developing a new mid-sized cruise ship class that reportedly would have all of the current technology and amenities of their newer mega ships in a smaller ship size. I guess we will just have to wait and see. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnocket Posted July 11 #9 Share Posted July 11 The issue isn't that there aren't any new-built small ships - the issue is that there aren't any that are affordable to many people. Given this, I suspect that there will be those people who conclude that since they find overcrowding on mainstream cruise ships unacceptable, and they can't afford the alternatives, they will reluctantly forgo cruising in favor of other vacation alternatives. That said, there must be plenty of people who are still willing to accept the pros & cons of what has become of mainstream cruise lines, or they wouldn't be building so many new ships. The cruising experience on mainstream lines simply isn't what it once was, and for many it is no longer enjoyable despite the value proposition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puzzums Posted July 11 Author #10 Share Posted July 11 Excellent replies - thanks so much everyone! I’ve never sailed with Holland America but will definitely be checking them out, and will keep an eye on Royal Caribbean. Never heard of Margarita At Sea but will check them out as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BklynBoy8 Posted July 11 #11 Share Posted July 11 (edited) Thank you for all the past comments posted but the final decision is what will make the passenger happy and also comfort. I do agree that some of the shipping lines are in some type of competition with who will have the largest. For the last 49 years, we know the type and style of service and vessel we are comfortable being on. And know there will be one out there no matter how big and gigantic the shipyards will build. @puzzums I would watch HAL.... They have not tested their size of ships yet. We have sailed them in the past till some of the policies changed. Edited July 11 by BklynBoy8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted July 11 #12 Share Posted July 11 (edited) The old adage in consumer pricing applies to cruises as to virtually everything else: “You may - or may not - always get what you pay for, but you surely will never get more than you pay for”. As long as price, not product, is the governing factor, the cruise lines will continue to hold down prices by trimming the quality of the product—- such trimming is effected by reducing service, quality of food served, itineraries (including ports), and even space per passenger. The continuing willingness of mass market cruisers to accept such trimming guarantees the continued degradation of the experience. Perhaps the ultimate seagoing bargain is that offered by the Staten Island ferry: it costs nothing. Of course, it does not really go anywhere, or offer good food or entertainment - but it does give you a ride over water on a metal vessel. Edited July 11 by navybankerteacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles4515 Posted July 11 #13 Share Posted July 11 2 hours ago, puzzums said: Excellent replies - thanks so much everyone! I’ve never sailed with Holland America but will definitely be checking them out, and will keep an eye on Royal Caribbean. Never heard of Margarita At Sea but will check them out as well. I believe they mean Margaritaville at Sea. They operate 2 day Bahamas cruises on rust buckets, Not sure why that was suggested. There are plenty of smaller ships to cruise on but not on mass market cruise lines which I believe is what you mean by mainstream. If you want small ships that are not on older ships past their prime you have to be willing to pay a premium. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinaGigi Posted July 11 #14 Share Posted July 11 @puzzums I would watch HAL.... They have not tested their size of ships yet. We have sailed them in the past till some of the policies changed. Edited 2 hours ago by BklynBoy8 Can I ask what you mean by not tested their size of ships yet? We are looking to cruise with them to Caribbean in December.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Essiesmom Posted July 11 #15 Share Posted July 11 To begin with, travel by ship was transportation, and the degree of comfort depended on what you paid. When air travel began to effect water travel, some ships were given a secondary purpose as cruisers. But it was still a relaxing vacation. But today’s cruisers want to be entertained, kept busy, no relaxation, amusement park. It’s sad, for those of us who remember the grace and ambiance of 25-30 years ago. If you really want to experience that, sail Cunard. EM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_BJ Posted July 11 #16 Share Posted July 11 I do agree that some of the shipping lines are in some type of competition with who will have the largest RCCL keeps this one in house (for now) ... each new build is just a little bit bigger then the previous .... inches ... and squeezing in a few cabins so each new hull is the LARGEST with MOST PASS' capacity. Frankly, once I tried 'smaller ship' I was sold. Have gone BIG a few times since to accommodate traveling with family but Viking Ocean ships are as big as I like to go now, with WINDSATR sailing and Viking River better yet ...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruisingAlong4Now Posted July 11 #17 Share Posted July 11 As in many areas of discussion, size is relative. Small, medium, and large are meaningful only in a comparative sense. I cannot consider a ship with more than 2000 passengers as "small". And mega-ships with multiples of 2000 passengers and as many again staff on board, are a horror to me. Fortunately, the capital markets of the world have provided an opportunity for each person to pick the product that best fits their style and financial situation. I'm still upset that Seabourn sold the "little sisters" with their intimate 100 cabins on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BklynBoy8 Posted July 11 #18 Share Posted July 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, GinaGigi said: @puzzums I would watch HAL.... They have not tested their size of ships yet. We have sailed them in the past till some of the policies changed. Edited 2 hours ago by BklynBoy8 Can I ask what you mean by not tested their size of ships yet? We are looking to cruise with them to Caribbean in December.... Design a Mega Ship of size.... They are not known for such vessel that size and passenger capacity. Edited July 11 by BklynBoy8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George C Posted July 11 #19 Share Posted July 11 I like the mega ships , more choices of restaurants both free and specialty . Not all restaurants are in same area. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screwsmcernst Posted July 11 #20 Share Posted July 11 I have only sailed on the mainstream cruise lines. I have been on the huge ship with 3500+ of my closest friends. I have also sailed on the smaller 2000 ish passengers. Other than the pool deck, I have always been able to find quiet locations on every ship I have sailed. On the bigger ships, that may mean paying more for the suite areas. I have never enjoyed the "frat party" atmosphere around the pool, so I know when it is packed, there are other options. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacMadame Posted July 12 #21 Share Posted July 12 7 hours ago, navybankerteacher said: Perhaps the ultimate seagoing bargain is that offered by the Staten Island ferry: it costs nothing. Of course, it does not really go anywhere, or offer good food or entertainment - but it does give you a ride over water on a metal vessel. I *love* the Staten Island ferry. I find it very entertaining. I try to ride it every time I visit NYC! 😄 5 hours ago, Charles4515 said: I believe they mean Margaritaville at Sea. They operate 2 day Bahamas cruises on rust buckets, Not sure why that was suggested. They have a new ship. It's not rusty and it does longer cruises. So that's probably why it was suggested. I've only been on ships that would be considered small these days. I've seen videos of the larger ships and it seems like some are well-designed so that there are lost quiet spaces and all those masses of people get spread around. And some... are not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles4515 Posted July 12 #22 Share Posted July 12 28 minutes ago, MacMadame said: I've only been on ships that would be considered small these days. I've seen videos of the larger ships and it seems like some are well-designed so that there are lost quiet spaces and all those masses of people get spread around. And some... are not. If you book a suite on ships that have a suite only type area like the Haven on NCL, the Retreat on Celebrity you can avoid the masses. I found that Oasis class on RCI to be the best designed large ship for spreading people around. Celebrity Solstice class ships have quiet places. I never found any quiet spaces on the two Carnival cruises I took. These days I do as someone else posted. I only book large ships when it is with groups of friends or with extended family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Honolulu Blue Posted July 12 #23 Share Posted July 12 On 7/11/2024 at 12:57 AM, puzzums said: My question is, does anyone forsee brand new small ships ever being built again by Royal Caribbean, Princess, Carnival etc - the mainstream-type - cruise lines? No I don't foresee it and would be surprised if I see any ships built by any mainstream lines smaller than HAL's newest or NCL's newest ships. The reasons have been stated by others: 21 hours ago, Tapi said: Holland America has newbuilds that are less than 100,000 tons and hold about 2,600 passengers (small by today's standards). Their pricing is similar to Princess 19 hours ago, wcook said: I would be surprised if the mainstream lines build a new ship carrying less than 2500 pax in the foreseeable future. Not only are bigger ships cheaper to run, but most of their customers prefer the larger ships with all the “stuff” and are willing to pay more to sail. 18 hours ago, mnocket said: The issue isn't that there aren't any new-built small ships - the issue is that there aren't any that are affordable to many people. Given this, I suspect that there will be those people who conclude that since they find overcrowding on mainstream cruise ships unacceptable, and they can't afford the alternatives, they will reluctantly forgo cruising in favor of other vacation alternatives. That said, there must be plenty of people who are still willing to accept the pros & cons of what has become of mainstream cruise lines, or they wouldn't be building so many new ships. The cruising experience on mainstream lines simply isn't what it once was, and for many it is no longer enjoyable despite the value proposition. The experience I think you're seeking is still available on luxury lines and the ritzier sections of some mainstream lines. I hear chatter about them all the time on the Celebrity board. Some have enjoyed their experiences with them, some... not so much. 8 hours ago, Charles4515 said: I never found any quiet spaces on the two Carnival cruises I took. I've cruised on Carnival over a dozen times, and I found quiet places on all of them. Their ships, like most mainstream cruises I've taken, are much quieter in public places in the morning. The noise level ramps up during the day on Carnival, and during the evening and at night, my cabin is usually the quietest place around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsn55 Posted July 12 #24 Share Posted July 12 For ocean cruising, 2K pax size is fine with me; Cunard's Queen Victoria to Norway was a wonderful experience, except for some less than stellar crew in the bars and shore excursion desk. I tried NCL Epic last fall in the Med, believe she carries more than 4K. Would not have been a crowd problem, but the ship's public spaces are poorly designed and created those crowds. Easy to avoid but can be annoying. The itinerary was wonderful and I don't regret my choice. I think you have to really envision your experience before you board. On a ship the size of Epic, you don't expect to just stroll off when you reach a port; you don't dine when everyone else is hungry, you know to schedule a ship's excursion if port time is tight in order to avoid the crowds (more or less). Cruising is a business, people are looking for the cheapest anything, they love the bells & whistles ... so mega ships will be with us until the business plan no longer makes sense. I'll always prefer a European river cruise, but sometimes the budget just won't stretch that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airbear232 Posted July 15 #25 Share Posted July 15 I can see smaller ships being built for RCI. Though it’s a niche, it’s a growing one as Pax want new experiences. Also, see them having regular world cruises for which smaller ships are needed. BTW, anyone hear about the new Infinity of the seas, you walk on the front of the ship in Bayonne and walk off the back in Southampton. 🙂 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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