No Gratuities

[MicCanberra]

I googled the feller, an interesting life.

 

Samuel Cunard was born 1787 in Halifax, Nova Scotia to a German father & Irish mother.

 

Raised in Nova Scotia, made his fortune there with various shipping, land & timber businesses.

He set up the British and North American Royal Mail Steam-Packet Company and won the UK-Canada mail contract in 1840. The paddle-steamer RMS Britannia was built in for the job in Glasgow, Scotland.

(RMS designation is for "Royal Mail Ship", same as RMS Titanic, RMS Lucitania, RMS Queen Mary, etc))

 

Kept his wife busy too - she bore nine children for him !!

 

Spent most of the late part of his life in England, made a Baronet in 1859, died in London 1865 & buried in Brompton cemetery.

 

Despite his baronetcy (which can be awarded to aliens), I can find no reference to him actually being British.

Or American.

Or Australian.

So blame it on the Canadians. :D

 

That said, CC stalwart BruceMuzz reckons it was the White Star line which first introduced tipping on ships. White Star was the Cunard line's major competitor in the 19th / early 20th century - they merged in 1934.

I can't find any reference to either of them, or any other line, introducing tipping on ships.

JB :)

 

That seems harsh, I think the Irish and the Germans may have partial blame as well. :p

Probably a bigger factor was the era in which this took place with a class system and a union free industry.

[MicCanberra]

Unless I'm mistaken, prior to Confederation in 1867, all Canadians were considered British citizens, since Canada was a colony.

 

You may find that being British citizens may only have referred to the Caucasians at the time.

[navybankerteacher]

[quote=John Bull;51301221

 

...

 

So blame it on the Canadians. :D

 

...

 

QUOTE]

 

Aha! JB - I never would have taken you to be a fan of "South Park" -- but your identifying those pesky northern neighbors of ours indeed makes a lot of sense.

 

(Google "South Park - 'Blame Canada' " if the reference eludes you).

[iheartbda]

 

That said, CC stalwart BruceMuzz reckons it was the White Star line which first introduced tipping on ships. White Star was the Cunard line's major competitor in the 19th / early 20th century - they merged in 1934.

I can't find any reference to either of them, or any other line, introducing tipping on ships.

JB :)

I couldn't find it either but I know that one long time poster shared that information at one time...should have saved it. He has too many posts to search. I haven't seen him around in a long time to ask where he found the info but there's someone else who might know.

[davecttr]

It certainly does - as long as the service charges are removable (presumably upon giving a reason), the negative aspect of incentive compensation is in play.

 

Pooling those "tips" helps create a team attitude which contributes to really superior general service.

 

Then, giving additional, in-person, tips to those who have individually contributed to your enjoyment of your cruise provides the positive aspect of incentive compensation.

 

The "carrot and stick" approach to compensation fits the business model of many lines - those who oppose on moral or ethical grounds should sail elsewhere.

 

Although I do have to wonder how many additional levels of supervision/oversight would be required for a mass-market line to ensure superior service if all staff were assured "a living wage" if there was no built-in risk-reward system. I suspect the outcome would be similar to that widely reported on NCL's US flag ship based in Hawaii - where US labor laws apply - and where lackluster service appears to be the hallmark.

 

I have considerable experience with such a mass market line here in the UK. They are called Thomson and operate lots of fly cruises from the UK. The tips are included in the fare and not even itemised so you don't know what the amount is.

 

The standards of service, friendliness and efficiency are at least as good as the other cruise line I use, P&O. They just look happy to me. Maybe they are happy because they get the guaranteed salary and because they get to keep any cash passengers may pass to them.

[cruisemom42]

 

Although I do have to wonder how many additional levels of supervision/oversight would be required for a mass-market line to ensure superior service if all staff were assured "a living wage" if there was no built-in risk-reward system. I suspect the outcome would be similar to that widely reported on NCL's US flag ship based in Hawaii - where US labor laws apply - and where lackluster service appears to be the hallmark.

 

I have considerable experience with such a mass market line here in the UK. They are called Thomson and operate lots of fly cruises from the UK. The tips are included in the fare and not even itemised so you don't know what the amount is.

 

The standards of service, friendliness and efficiency are at least as good as the other cruise line I use, P&O. They just look happy to me. Maybe they are happy because they get the guaranteed salary and because they get to keep any cash passengers may pass to them.

 

 

I have to agree. I have sailed with a lot of different lines and most recently my line of choice has been a British one (Voyages to Antiquity) with tips built into the fare. I have also sailed with a similar line, Swan Hellenic.

 

For both of these lines (neither of which is considered luxury), the service on board is every bit as good as you find on the other lines I've sailed with including HAL, Princess and Celebrity most recently. In fact, it may be better than on those lines because it seems like they are more adequately staffed in certain areas where the bigger lines have made cutbacks.

[DirtyDawg]

You may find that being British citizens may only have referred to the Caucasians at the time.

 

If I can recall my history correctly all "Canadians" at that time were British subjects, few were British citizens, Caucasian or not. Certainly the French in Quebec and my Irish ancestors were not.

 

And I'm pretty certain my ancestor, who emigrated here in the 1820's, did not tip on his cruise. ;)

Edited October 13, 2016 by DirtyDawg

[Lanzalady]

It is so offensive when people act like a tipped position is like being a slave or uneducated. I worked as a server at a restaurant where we all had degrees. Americans understand that people can enjoy the hospitality business. When you talk to Brits and they find out you're educated, they act like you must be stupid. I would never do anything horrible to a guest but I can assure you that if you come to my bar and don't tip the first time, you won't get the same prompt friendly service the second time. No amount of "cheers and respect" pay my bills. It's in my best interest to shower extra attention on the tippers. I would assume your cabin steward feels the same.

I think that's the point though! Obviously as a British person, I am used to the "British way" but having lived and worked in the hospitality industry for the past 33 years in Spain, I also get the "European way". Both have similar ideas regarding tipping and of how we offer service to our clients. The seemingly false - "have a nice day" and similar insincere phrases that Americans expect to receive when they walk into a bar, is presumably so that the customer will leave a large tip when they leave. I am not trying to insult anyone else's customs but we just don't do that over here! We can offer just as good service by being ourselves and if the customer tips, then very well and good and if they don't, then they don't and we don't plan our revenge on them for the next time that they come in. We find that just being ourselves and chatting easily with our customers is what they like. I always did very well with my tips and never over-ingratiated myself with my customers and consequently, made many true friends amongst them over the years. It's a cultural thing.... and always will be! The thing is that the staff on the cruise ships may not been brought up with the same customs and whilst they will obviously be very happy to receive lots of tips from their passengers, their culture is not one of planning revenge on people who don't tip them! And by the way... there are a lot of educated Brits who also work in the hospitality industry, so your comment regarding educated Americans seems more racist than reality.

[Lanzalady]

Ok, thanks. I now see why crew would be just as happy to work on a luxury cruise that's discourages tipping, as they would a princess that highly encourages it.

Which more or less proves the point that if the cruise company paid their staff a proper living wage and did not expect them to live off their tips, then the whole tipping thing would be irrelevant. We pay a fair price for the cruise and they pay their staff properly. Job done!

[luddite]

[quote=John Bull;51301221

 

...

 

So blame it on the Canadians. :D

 

...

 

QUOTE]

 

Aha! JB - I never would have taken you to be a fan of "South Park" -- but your identifying those pesky northern neighbors of ours indeed makes a lot of sense.

 

(Google "South Park - 'Blame Canada' " if the reference eludes you).

 

Nice!

South Park's take on elections is also well done.

[sloopsailor]

Which more or less proves the point that if the cruise company paid their staff a proper living wage and did not expect them to live off their tips, then the whole tipping thing would be irrelevant. We pay a fair price for the cruise and they pay their staff properly. Job done!

 

Whether you pay it in the fare or pay it as gratuity, it's still the same money out of your pocket. What darn difference does it make how it is collected? I cannot for the life of me understand certain people's problem with this simple fact. If Shakespeare were alive and a cruiser, I am sure he would say it's all "Much ado about nothing".

[Texas Tillie]

Whether you pay it in the fare or pay it as gratuity, it's still the same money out of your pocket. What darn difference does it make how it is collected? I cannot for the life of me understand certain people's problem with this simple fact. If Shakespeare were alive and a cruiser, I am sure he would say it's all "Much ado about nothing".

 

Amen!!! :D:p:)

[Sea Hag]

 

And I'm pretty certain my ancestor, who emigrated here in the 1820's, did not tip on his cruise. ;)

 

Good one!

[John Bull]

Whether you pay it in the fare or pay it as gratuity, it's still the same money out of your pocket. What darn difference does it make how it is collected.

 

 

Advertise a cruise at $1600? That's fine.

Or at $1400 + $200 service? That's fine too

 

But advertise it at $1400, then charge $1600? That's deceitful advertising. :(

Mebbe not to you & me, we know about auto-tips.

But quite a shock to newbies from the UK, Aus, etc, who find up to 15% added to their cruise cost after they've booked.

 

JB :)

[BlueRiband]

Which more or less proves the point that if the cruise company paid their staff a proper living wage and did not expect them to live off their tips, then the whole tipping thing would be irrelevant. We pay a fair price for the cruise and they pay their staff properly. Job done!

 

Tax liability issues aside, you and I would have to convince our fellow passengers to pay substantially higher fares for the staff to be paid "a proper living wage". Unless all cruise lines switched simultaneously, the first line to do this would immediately look far more expensive compared to their competition.

[mafig]

Advertise a cruise at $1600? That's fine.

Or at $1400 + $200 service? That's fine too

 

But advertise it at $1400, then charge $1600? That's deceitful advertising. :(

Mebbe not to you & me, we know about auto-tips.

But quite a shock to newbies from the UK, Aus, etc, who find up to 15% added to their cruise cost after they've booked.

 

JB :)

 

Have you been to Las Vegas? They advertise rates of $25 - $30/night. Then there's the daily service charge $25 to $35 added on. And, by the way, you can't remove it. That's the last time I was there, the rates are higher now. Just try saying to them "I didn't use the pool, I didn't use the gym, I made no phone calls."

 

Maybe it's deceitful advertising where you're from, but it's just creative advertising elsewhere.

Edited October 13, 2016 by mafig

[CaveDiving]

If you insist on doing things like they do it in Australia, then stay in Australia. If you want to travel, you need to accept the customs of the places you visit, including on American run cruise ships. The phrase "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" applies everywhere one travels. It is arrogant to insist that the way things are done in your own country is the only way it should be done world wide.

 

I cannot agree with these sentiments. Does your posting mean if I travel to a mid-Eastern country I must treat all women as chattel or personal property? Sorry, my own morals (and customs) don't change depending on where I am visiting.

 

Scott & Karen

[LHT28]

Which more or less proves the point that if the cruise company paid their staff a proper living wage and did not expect them to live off their tips, then the whole tipping thing would be irrelevant. We pay a fair price for the cruise and they pay their staff properly. Job done!

 

What do you consider a living wage for crew from the Philippines?

What do consider a living wage for crew from Mexico or Spain or Asia ?

 

see the problem

[ronrick1943]

I agree why would you really do that. When tip is included, I still tip extra when the service is better than good. Next time you get a bonus at work for doing extra - why don't you give it back.

[John Bull]

Tax liability issues aside, you and I would have to convince our fellow passengers to pay substantially higher fares for the staff to be paid "a proper living wage". Unless all cruise lines switched simultaneously, the first line to do this would immediately look far more expensive compared to their competition.

 

A "living wage" doesn't come into it, because the crew get their board & keep & other benefits.

All folk want is for the auto-tip to be incorporated into the fare, and that doesn't mean having to pay a penny more in total.

(Tax, agents commission etc have been covered earlier in the thread)

And with no add-on for tips/service, I truly believe that the crew will be better off, because passengers will be more willing to put their hands in their pockets to give a grammatically-correct gratuity for good service. That's what happens on tips-included ships.

 

But yes, although cruise lines elsewhere in the world do that, I think we all agree that no US mass-market line would do it unilaterally because none of them wants their headline price to look higher than the others. And they all want to appear to be better value vs land destinations.

 

Have you been to Las Vegas? They advertise rates of $25 - $30/night. Then there's the daily service charge $25 to $35 added on. And, by the way, you can't remove it. That's the last time I was there, the rates are higher now. Just try saying to them "I didn't use the pool, I didn't use the gym, I made no phone calls."

 

Maybe it's deceitful advertising where you're from, but it's just creative advertising elsewhere.

 

Yes, I'm very aware that the US is the king of the add-on, whether its hotels or car rental or attractions. And king of the bogus discounts too. Having to check & double-check & query every price that's quoted when I go to the US is a time-waster and a pain in the butt.

 

Call it "creative advertising" if you like, but don't add the word "everywhere" because its far less prevalent elsewhere in the world.

it's a very American trait.

 

JB :)

Edited October 13, 2016 by John Bull

[GUT2407]

Whether you pay it in the fare or pay it as gratuity, it's still the same money out of your pocket. What darn difference does it make how it is collected? I cannot for the life of me understand certain people's problem with this simple fact. If Shakespeare were alive and a cruiser, I am sure he would say it's all "Much ado about nothing".

 

Yet others seem to have a real problem with the suggestion it me included in the fare.

 

Why's that I wonder.

[GUT2407]

I cannot agree with these sentiments. Does your posting mean if I travel to a mid-Eastern country I must treat all women as chattel or personal property? Sorry, my own morals (and customs) don't change depending on where I am visiting.

 

Scott & Karen

 

But "when in Rome...." they cry.

 

Great response.

 

Thank you.

[navybankerteacher]

I agree why would you really do that. When tip is included, I still tip extra when the service is better than good. Next time you get a bonus at work for doing extra - why don't you give it back.

 

I wonder if all the "living wage" people would be comfortable with the concept of a "bonus at work for doing extra" -- isn't that identical with the idea of tipping?

[luddite]

Advertise a cruise at $1600? That's fine.

Or at $1400 + $200 service? That's fine too

 

But advertise it at $1400, then charge $1600? That's deceitful advertising. :(

Mebbe not to you & me, we know about auto-tips.

But quite a shock to newbies from the UK, Aus, etc, who find up to 15% added to their cruise cost after they've booked.

 

JB :)

 

The Service Charge (which isn't a tip) can only be a surprise ONCE and frankly in this day and age it should only be a surprise to idiots.

[navybankerteacher]

The Service Charge (which isn't a tip) can only be a surprise ONCE and frankly in this day and age it should only be a surprise to idiots.

 

It is hard to think of it as a surprise even once - any cruise is a fairly significant expenditure, which a reasonable person would attempt to figure out before signing on; and the existence of the charge is fairly openly disclosed.

 

People who are unhappy with the concept have a perfect right to prefer their own regional practices - but their consistent carping is tiring - especially when they frequently refer to lines which "pay a living wage".

 

When I am on n Britain I quietly accept their ways, and feel no need to criticize.