Overwhelmed for European Trip

[JohnandDee]

Hello, everyone!

 

We are a mid-40s American couple looking for an affordable European trip for our 15th anniversary in 2018. We've been on several ocean cruises in the Caribbean and absolutely loved our Western Mediterranean cruise (Western Italy from Barcelona) from a couple years ago. Since then, both travel agents and some friends have recommended we look into a river cruise to explore more inland European options. However, even after looking through these forums and guides, we feel totally overwhelmed and the travel agents we've spoken to have not been very helpful. What ever happened to the days when we could ask - or more importantly, be asked, a few questions, pay some money and get a packet of itineraries, tickets, vouchers, emergency numbers to call, etc. Is this now only offered to those who can afford luxury and personal concierges?

 

Honestly, we don't even know where to begin - there are so many destinations, so many cruise lines, so many itineraries and even times of year to go. But trying to figure out what is going to 'work for us' has been incredibly frustrating.

 

We also keep hearing so many different things regarding cruises and river cruises in particular. From what we've experienced, ocean cruises seem to fit in the $500-2500 US range per person but tend to not include shore excursions (adding another $500-1000 per person for a typical week of excursions).

River cruises seem to include those excursions and other perks (Wifi, some air, etc.), but typically start in the $3000-4000 per person range and can easily double that for most itineraries. When we think about spending $10-15k on a trip, we really feel like that may be outside our budget, even for something significant like a major anniversary, especially when that same amount would allow us to travel to a dozen or so cities for shorter trips or at least 2-3 ocean cruises of comparable length.

 

Some people say that they feel completely pampered on a river cruise. Others have complained about the frequent transfers, risk of having to switch to bus-based travel if the river navigation is impacted by high or low water, etc.

 

Honestly, sometimes we wonder if it isn't just better to look at a few specific destinations and look at land-based transportation between those locations via rail passes - it seems like it would be much less costly and more under your control, especially if you can locate a decent land tour partner...

 

So - can anyone help us get started?

 

We would love to find something in a 7-12 day range, possibly extending one or both sides at the departure or destination ports.

We're moderately healthy and active; we don't want to just sit in a bus, but neither do we feel up to hiking or biking 20k each day. We prefer moderate temperatures, dislike cold/snow and would rather save hot for the beaches.

We enjoy cruise-casual or even getting dressed up once or twice, but don't want to have to pack tons of fancier outfits and don't want to feel like we're the youngest or least 'chic' on board. On the flip side, we don't want to be surrounded by a bunch of kids and 20-somethings partying all the time (we recognize probably less of a risk on river cruises). This is not agism - we get along with all ages and very much enjoy both benefiting from our elders' experience and letting our hair down and remembering our own youth. Rather, we don't want to feel alienated by the general atmosphere or focus of both the fellow passengers and the line itself.

We have absolutely no interest in gambling, are only moderate drinkers and are trying to manage excessive consumption of food and especially carbs for health reasons.

That all said, all-inclusive is extremely important if it is good value because we don't want to be hit with a lot of surprise expenses. And that is becoming a challenge as different lines' definition of "all-inclusive" ranges all over the place, with some not including port fees, certain upsell excursions or onboard services, gratuities (and how does that work, since some lines discourage gratuities entirely, which seems in line with most European customs), etc.

 

We would love to experience local culture - especially classical music, opera and art - but don't really want to have a cruise line import a couple singers or chamber players into a lounge for a stand-and-sing or abbreviated concert and pretend that is the same as seeing a fully-staged production in a centuries-old theatre.

 

We'd love to visit some key cities such as Vienna, Budapest, Berlin, Munich, Prague, Paris, Bruges, Cologne, but recognize that not all can fit in on a single (affordable in both time and money) trip. Also, there are plenty of other smaller or lesser known cities - again, too big a menu, too hard to narrow things down.

 

And even there - we've also looked at e.g. Eastern Mediterranean such as Venice/Greece/Croatia as an option for another ocean cruise; it looks much more affordable and those are key places on our 'bucket list'. The British Isles are also a big appeal and Scandinavia might be a distinctly different option.

 

So - how do we even get started? What can we do to start narrowing down cruise lines or itineraries. Is a river cruise even the right choice (or right for us for now)? Are there good advisors in either certain travel agencies or within the cruise lines themselves that can help guide us in making the right decisions?

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

John and Dee

[Sixtytwo]

Wow! I have to say you have quite an ambitious itinerary to put together! But, we have also been mired in an attempt to do something similar, but in 2019. It is, no doubt, a daunting task because there are so many places in Europe that we want to try and visit that we have looked at maybe 2 weeks on land and then a transatlantic cruise, renting an apartment somewhere in central Europe, buying unlimited Eur-rail passes and doing day trips, to a river cruise, to...:o

 

My suggestion to you is to figure out (if it is possible) which countries/cities you are most interested in and then go from there. Maybe you want to see places where a river cruise is just not going to give you the most bang for your buck. I have looked at several river cruises over the last couple of years and my complaint is so many do overnights in some ports which cuts down on the number of ports. I always felt I was not going to be able to see as much as I had hoped.

 

Good luck with your planning! Let us know how you are progressing. Also, welcome to Cruise Critic! :D

[Sixtytwo]

Must be karma! Check this thread out from this morning...

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2510677 :D

[LHT28]

You need to find a new TA

You also need to narrow down where you want to go & method of travel along with your budget .....Land trip, river cruise or Ocean cruise

Once you figure that out then you can get a handle on things

[thinfool]

We have not done a river cruise. Would like to....but I digress...

 

Reading your selfie I am inclined to think that you need to consider more than one trip. Unless you have unlimited time and cash, what you seem to describe is daunting at best.

 

Otoh, here is what we did for our last trip to the Med.

1. Flew to Prague 2 days

2. Train to Vienna 2 days

3. Train to Venice 2 days

4 Train (thru Pisa) to Civitavecchia for 12 days on ship around the Eastern Med.

5. Flew home from Rome

 

It was great! But I was so 'cultured out' by the end of 3 weeks in ruins, castles, palaces, and historic sites that I was more than ready to come home.

 

Now I am ready to go again and we are wrestling between a river cruise and trains to visit places that are not on ship itineraries.

[NMLady]

Must be karma! Check this thread out from this morning...

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2510677 :D

 

I think the smiley face is too close to the link since I could not get the link to open until I manually copied it without the smiley face.

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2510677

[SadieN]

You need to find a new TA

You also need to narrow down where you want to go & method of travel along with your budget .....Land trip, river cruise or Ocean cruise

Once you figure that out then you can get a handle on things

 

 

 

Another thought to process

Do you want to see as many countries or cities as possible? Or do you want to stay in one place and explore? Basically do you want to do an overview tour or an in depth vacation?

 

Thin Fool (a few posts up) did a whole bunch of places in three weeks. We've been to Rome several times, did VRBO or BnBs and only did a few road trips. Nothing wrong with either way to travel.

[cruisemom42]

From reading your opening post, I think you are a little bit the victim of "too many choices." I'm not sure if a travel agent can help you -- you've got to narrow down what you're looking for.

 

We are lucky to live in a time where travel is relatively easy, safe (naysayers notwithstanding) and inexpensive compared with previous generations. Brochures and websites can make everything look wonderful. Reviewers can make everything sound terrible. What to choose???

 

One thing I find helpful with travel is thinking about what I have enjoyed the most in the past. I've been fortunate to have done a lot of travel throughout my life. I find that for me, cruises are best if you want to have multiple destinations in a (relatively) short time. The ship is your transportation (no fussing with planes, trains and buses) and hotel, and you only have to unpack once -- or twice if you extend your stay on land afterwards.

 

On the other hand, if I really want to get to know a city, I plan to stay put there for at least a week. Anything else is -- for me -- just skimming the surface. I don't really enjoy land travel as much if there are a lot of location changes -- 2 days here, 3 days there, 2 more days here, etc.

 

Also -- how 'high energy' are you? Land trips/city stays tend to be go-go-go for me because I am not great at relaxing. Cruises that have a sea day here and there (but not too many) provide some enforced 'take it easy' days so that I avoid burnout or total collapse.

 

Once you decide on land versus sea (or river), you at least eliminate half of the brochures any TA could throw at you. But you still have to decide what area to visit. Since you're relatively young-ish, think about what appeals to you most right now. You'll probably have many more chances to travel, if travel is important to you.

 

I'm about 10 years older than you are, but I've already started putting things in various buckets -- things to do now while I have the stamina/energy and things that can wait until I'm older since they are somewhat easier physically. For example, a trip to India (the former) versus a cruise through the Panama Canal (the latter).

[Roz]

On my 2015 Uniworld river cruise, the only extra expense I incurred was for postage stamps. Transfers, alcohol, tips, food, and excursions were all included, but it was much more expensive than an ocean cruise. Ocean and river cruises are 2 different animals; you really can't compare the two.

 

You really need to find a TA that's been on a river cruise, or specializes in them.

 

Roz

[capriccio]

For more info on river cruising check out the cruise critic river cruising board and pay special attention to the 'stickies' at the top of the page, especially the "New to River Cruising?" sticky.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=191. Also, post your river cruising questions and concerns there. Lots of friendly informative folks on that board will provide answers and comments.

[bennybear]

My two cents, I would do an eastern med, that goes Rome to Venice, or vice versa. You can then spend time in both those cities at the end. Venice is a magical place at night once the day trippers are gone. I absolutely love Greece so I would pick a cruise that goes to Santorini, and maybe Corfu. Sounds like that may check a few more things off your bucket list for a more reasonable price. Happy planning. We haven't tried a river cruise yet, as I find it hard to justify the cost. We travel a lot independently in Europe and like the smaller places as well. But Venice is absolutely magical.

[Floridiana]

I would go for an Eastern Mediterranean cruise at a comfortable price level on a mid range cruise line like Princess. Pick shoulder season, not the height of summer. There will be so many ports that the actual ship is not the most important feature of the cruise. Add independent stays at the beginning and at the end of the cruise to make the flight worthwhile.

 

Additional cruise areas that are worthwhile: the Baltic and the Norwegian coast, both excellent in summer. For classical music, stay independently in Berlin or in Hamburg or in Vienna or in London. Many other smaller towns have top notch music festivals that sell out fast. You would have to focus on them and arrange the trip around it.

 

For all those inland cities, get more comfortable with Europe for a combination of an independent trip + maybe a river or ocean cruise. River cruises are very expensive, but there are more reasonably priced lines than the one that advertises constantly. ;p

[rose6]

I suggest you make a list of the countries you most desire to visit. Next, with a specific dollar budget in mind, decide where your priorities will best be satisfied. River cruises are far more expensive than most ocean cruises and your fellow passengers are likely to be considerably more mature, however, I do not think the age of the other cruise passengers should be relevant to your decision. For the type of opera or concert preferences you mentioned above, a land based segment of your vacation would be a necessity. You have not mentioned how much vacation time you have and the time of year you wish to travel. Both of those factors will effect cost and itinerary options. You need to take more personal responsibility for designing your ideal vacation. Keep in mind that most Travel Agents are motivated by generating profit for the business that employs them. They will be happy to sell you many travel options, but do you think it is rational to expect them to spend more time and effort to planning your vacation than you are willing to devote to the process yourselves? Suggest you put the effort into your own research and planning process and you will reap the rewards of more satisfying vacation experience.

[ontheweb]

We've never been on a river cruise, though we once had one booked and paid for and chartered out.

 

My DW wants some of those cities you mentioned, and we did look at river cruises for this summer for our 40th anniversary. One problem was as you have noted, river cruises seem to be very expensive. Another is some of the cities she wanted were not on the same river.

 

Our solution is that we are taking an escorted land tour starting with flying to Budapest. From there we are going to Vienna and finally to Prague where we will celebrate our anniversary.

 

Maybe something like this would fit into what you wish to do for your anniversary. I of course cannot name the travel company. I will say it was recommended highly by some friends. Maybe someone you know can help you with a recommendation. Good luck with whatever you choose.

[Got2Cruise]

I've taken both ocean and river cruises in Europe. If I was never to Europe I would start with an ocean cruise that stops at major cities and gives you a taste. A western Mediterranean or an Eastern Mediterranean itinerary hits many popular tourist destinations.

[PROCRUISE]

Just an opinion. We took Viking Bragi Riverboat, 15 day cruise Budapest to Amsterdam. Spent 2 days in Budapest prior to the cruise and 2 days in Amsterdam post cruise. It was indeed one of the most grand traveling experiences we ever had and would actually go again. Laid back atmosphere on the riverboat, extraordinary food and service, outstanding CD and tour leaders. You might at least give it a look and talk with your TA or Viking directly.

[Floridiana]

Budapest - Vienna - Prague - Dresden - Berlin are connected by trains and can be done independently if given enough vacation time or split up in segments of two or three. It would probably require a bit of travel experience with booking flights, hotels, and train tickets. Also the willingness to reduce luggage to a manageable weight because train stations have no porters. TripAdvisor has many helpful participants, but I think you still need some travel experience outside North America.

[Kartgv]

Another approach might be to decide first which city/area you want your cruise to either start or end, so that you can spend some time there pre- or post-cruise. You can then go to any of the large online websites, or a local TA, specify the length of the cruise and the timeframe, and see what is available. As others have said, you need to narrow your focus or you'll never make a decision.

 

You're really doing yourselves a disservice by not narrowing it down and thereby stressing yourselves so much. We find the planning process to be one of the best parts of travel - it's exciting to consider the possibilities and discover new little gems to visit. Try to relax and enjoy the process on the way!

[Sixtytwo]

I think the smiley face is too close to the link since I could not get the link to open until I manually copied it without the smiley face.

:eek: Oops! My bad! Glad you figured it out and posted a good link.

[cruiserking]

Welcome to Cruise Critic John & Dee.

Princess is a great cruise line, elegant ships, great food, excellent service. One of their newest ships has an excellent British Isles itinerary in August 2018.

 

Royal Princess

This 12-day cruise leaving on August 4, $3,249 pp for a balcony cabin. Other departures on August 16 and 28. Itinerary includes these ports:

 

Southampton, England | St. Peter Port (Guernsey), England | Cobh (Cork), Ireland | Dublin, Ireland | Liverpool, England | Belfast, Northern Ireland | Greenock (Glasgow), Scotland, UK | Invergordon, Scotland | Leith/Edinburgh, Scotland, UK | Le Havre (Paris), France

The Crown Princess does a great 14-night Greek Isles cruise on August 11 $3,848 pp for a balcony. Itinerary includes these stops:

Civitavecchia (Rome), Italy | Salerno, Italy | Kotor, Montenegro | Corfu, Greece | Chania, Greece | Mykonos, Greece | Piraeus (Athens), Greece | Santorini (Thira), Greece | Messina, Sicily, Italy | Naples, Italy | Barcelona, Spain

Cunard is another line to consider if you're interested in a more quiet, easy going cruise. Beautiful, elegant ships, delicious food, great lectures, very dressy including several formal nights a week.

The Queen Elizabeth does a great 14-night British Isles cruise on July 13, 2018 - $3,799 pp for a balcony. Itinerary includes these stops:

Southampton, England | Rotterdam, The Netherlands | South Queensferry, Scotland | Invergordon, Scotland | Killybegs Ireland | Greenock (Glasgow), Scotland, UK | Belfast, Northern Ireland | Liverpool, England | Dublin, Ireland | St. Peter Port (Guernsey), England

 

Celebrity is a great cruise line as well, but, they are even pricier than the above for comparable routes.

 

Best advice look around online for a solid travel agency that specializes in cruises. There are some great ones out there.

 

I've been working with the same agent for about ten years and consistently get good rates, great on board credit and excellent perks.

 

Good Luck, Happy Anniversary and Happy Cruise Planning.

 

Jonathan;)

[littlegit]

I think it is clever of you to ask on CC for advice!

 

I enjoy both river cruises and ocean cruises. There are some big differences and yes, costis a factor.

 

Here is what I like about river cruises. When you dock, you are right in a town. You walk off the ship. There is only a coupleof hundred people instead of thousands disembarking. It is easier to get to know people on a rivercruise since there are less of you. Youcruise and tour together.

 

Once you pay for a river cruise, you won’t have surprise expenses. Your tours are included and they areexcellent. The tours tend to be in themorning. That gives you a chance to feelcomfortable about your surroundings and then you have time to explore on yourown in the afternoon.

 

Being on a river you get to see a lot of scenery as youcruise. That doesn’t happen much on theocean/sea.

 

We never bothered with a drink package on a river cruise becausebeer and wine were included at lunch and dinner. There aren’t as many dining options but thefood is good.

 

I have been on 4 river cruises with Viking. There is no need for men to pack a tie orladies to bring cocktail dresses. In theevening, most men wear long pants and the ladies wear nice tops. There are a couple of dressier evenings but nothingreal fancy. I believe on other rivercruises the dress standard is higher.

 

For me, a big difference is the evening entertainment. On a river cruise, they bring on some localtalent or just have a piano player. Ofcourse, you have experienced how much more there is to do on a big cruise shipat night.

 

Another thing worth considering is the age factor. River cruises appeal to an older demographic. If I was in my 40’s like you, I might notfind it as much fun travelling with us older folks!

 

I have been on some good Mediterranean and some good rivercruises. I think you just need to dowhat appeals to you most. Both aregreat, just different.

 

 

[Markanddonna]

You have been given a lot of different and good advice, but it seems that you might want something that cruising isn't particularly good at: a more authentic experience. Might I suggest you target one or two cities in Europe and fly to them AFTER a seven day cruise? We like to use a transatlantic cruise to GO to Europe in the spring, but target a city to fly to after the cruise. I love that we have experienced many wonderful ports in England, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, France, Italy, etc. as port stops. I would never have visited some of these port cities or cities that can be done as a day trip if it wasn't for cruising.

 

Flights within Europe are inexpensive and will give you the more intimate and authentic experience you are looking for. Use CC, TripAdvisor and Rick Steves for resources.

[JohnandDee]

A belated thank you to everyone, for sharing your thoughts and suggestions. We certainly have a lot to sort out and think about!

[Capt_BJ]

my 2 cents:

 

) concur .... you need a better TA! A good one would help you more ... but finding a good one can be hard (think finding a dentist). Also, your TA experience gets better over time. Few will put extra effort into a 'one time' client, but a regular customer ....

 

) when we did our first river we had 40+ 'ocean' cruises under our belt. One big difference with us tho was a few of our's were 'small ship' cruises and a small ship experience is WAY different from a big ship. River cruises are small ship. We'd sailed WINDSTAR several times, 400 pax max and visiting places the big boys can't go .... no formal nites. khakis, boat shoes and a polo for men, capris and a nice top for Mrs is as dressed up as expected for dinner. Most river cruises are under 200 pax. Small ship cruising is different from big ship .... but costs significantly more as well. (small ship: no assigned tables, crew learns you FAST, tends to be a similar sort of folks in age and income ... few if any kids ... no casino or shows or discos .... no eating optional rest' but they aren't cooking for 2000 people at a time either)

 

) we found when comparing river cruise providers you need to be careful about 'all included'. I mean, why pay a premium for all drinks included if a glass of wine or a beer now and then is as far as you go? Think of it like this: if your TA offered the all booze package on your ocean cruise or $300 each in OBC that you could spend as you like, which would you choose? For us, DW hardily drinks so the OBC paid my bar bill and the combined OBC left us money to spare.

 

) our first river was also DW's first visit to Europe. We did a Budapest to Nuremburg, and spent 3 days in the end points of either side of the river cruise, then took a train to Hamburg for a few days there. We booked the three days either side thru the TA and NOT thru the cruise line, also booked our own transport (flew over but came back on the QM2 ... that's another story ... but I'd note that passage for two Hamburg to NYC with a balcony cost LESS that two air business class <middle class> seats ... but ya need 9 days and ya DO need fancy clothes) In other words we 'mixed it up' ..... we loved the river cruise but at times wished we had more time in a 'port' ... the places we spent more time .. we were never bored.

 

hope this helps a little rather than adding to confusion ..... btw, our TA brought many of these points to our attention when we first went in and inquired about a river cruise, after asking a few questions and knowing we were experienced 'ocean cruisers' ......

 

we feel the pain tho ... trying to decide on something for our 40th next year .... a longer river cruise or a 'small ship' from England up into Norway et al ...... decisions decisions. Viking Ocean or WINDSTAR ....... hmmmmmm. Also just did a Norway and Denmark trip doing bnb all the way, moving every 3 days ..... very much enjoyed but the ship 'unpack once' has merits and I (hubby) like my water time.

[buggins0402]

Actually, Prague, Budapest and Vienna is an easy DIY land trip using trains. Fly into Prague, take a train to Vienna and from there train to Budapest. Do a side trip to Salzburg from Vienna. Classical concerts are available in all those cities. From Vienna, a nice day trip is taking a river cruise up to Melk.

 

You might get a copy of Rick Steves' Central Europe book if it's something you think you might like to attempt as a DIY.