Very disturbing lawsuit

[Biker19]

Almost, now that you got that out of the way we just have to wait for the "Popcorn"

I think CC has been programmed so that: Biker + mention of popcorn = automatic post deletion.

[Milwaukee Eight]

Are we there yet?

 

 

 

Sorry, I don’t think this thread is worn out yet.

 

 

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[gerif]

We can debate liability forever but IMHO, the criminal phase is over and done and the perpetrators have been duly sentenced. Should the parents sue them in civil court? After all, they wouldn’t have much to prove since they’ve already been convicted in criminal court. But, wait a minute, probably not much money to be had there. However, Royal has a ton of money and might just be willing to agree to a settlement, so let’s figure out what kind of trumped up charges we can bring against them. Hope they have a good team of defense attorneys.

[StlGal]

I see this as a real problem with parents who feel it’s perfectly fine for their kids to roam the ship alone and after curfew at that as long as they don’t bother mom and dad who, after all, are on vacation. Take a little responsibility for your kids. The cruise line is not your personal babysitter. Of course, the two men need to be prosecuted but I fail to see how Royal is responsible.

 

Totally agree with you. While I am sorry for what happened to the 13 yo boy, his parents are the negligent party in the case, not Royal.

[constable145]

Assault and battery maybe

 

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In a decent portion of the world, assault is the act of unwanted physical contact.

 

We do not have a charge of assault and battery .

[John&LaLa]

Almost, now that you got that out of the way we just have to wait for the "Popcorn"

And Bella

 

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[John&LaLa]

In a decent portion of the world, assault is the act of unwanted physical contact.

 

We do not have a charge of assault and battery .

I know..

 

We don't tell the dates right, we don't measure right.

 

Just a backwards nation

 

Oops, I forgot living wage and tipping practices.

 

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[Milwaukee Eight]

I think CC has been programmed so that: Biker + mention of popcorn = automatic post deletion.

 

 

 

They need to add the horse too. Threads have a way of going off themselves without added help.

 

Maybe Host Biker in your future. Lol

 

 

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[Milwaukee Eight]

And Bella

 

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I think 90% here don’t mind Bella. It’s that dang dead horse.

 

 

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[Eslader]

The takeaway, however, should be that sexual harassment or assault IS NEVER OKAY.

 

I admit I haven't read the whole thread but I sincerely hope no one in here is claiming otherwise.

 

I think another takeaway, though, should be to remember that just because something is never okay, does not mean that it's everyone even tangentially involved's fault.

 

As far as the cruise line is concerned, I think it will, and should, at least be a learning experience to prevent this from happening again.

Let's say they start watching the cameras 24/7. Know how many cameras are on that ship? One guy couldn't do it. So you're gonna need a lot of guys if you want to see every single camera all the time. And so now the security staff is sitting in a (very large) room watching cameras and when they see the assault happening in the library they have to run to the library from wherever the room is, which is probably midships below deck 5 to get as central as possible without having to close passenger areas to build the new room.

 

 

In short, the kid's getting assaulted whether the cameras are watched or not because there's no way they're going to get up there in time.

 

The kid shouldn't have been roaming the ship at that hour. That's on the parents. Yes, he was violating curfew, but at that hour it's pretty easy to duck staff. It's a very big ship and they don't have staff stationed every 10 feet to keep an eye out for rule-breaking children. It's entirely plausible that no one ever saw him out after curfew.

 

The rest (and vast majority) of blame for this crime is on the criminal who committed it. I don't see that Royal is at fault. If the kid had been assaulted in a city park it wouldn't have been reasonable to sue the city because they "negligently" did not have a cop stationed right where the assault happened, when it happened, with his gun out ready to stop it. That's an absurd expectation, and it doesn't get any less absurd when the assault is carried out on a ship.

[Aquahound]

Let's say they start watching the cameras 24/7.

 

Could you imagine the complaints on these boards? If someone is so out of touch as to think they should be able to monitor hundreds of cameras in real time, it'll probably be those same people who come back and complain about a police state if it were to actually happen.

[Milwaukee Eight]

I know..

 

We don't tell the dates right, we don't measure right.

 

Just a backwards nation

 

Oops, I forgot living wage and tipping practices.

 

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I was wondering the same thing about those really decent non tippers and the decent reviews of Indy.

 

 

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[sndral]

To quote Mark Twain "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

My head is spinning at some of the conjecture I've read in the last 16 pages.

 

Starting w/ reference to where were the 'parents' - based on news reports the 13 year old was on board with his mother and his brother - so 'parent' singular in this case.

No need to assume details about how the attack started as the link to the video of said attack exists, thanks to Redrobo at post 73 on page 4. The video is edited so that what prosecutors described as a simulated sexual assault is not depicted.

The propositioned girl's father did not do the lewd and lascivious act on a minor - her Uncle was convicted of that crime and was sentenced to 3 years in prison. The girl's father got 2 years for keeping others away while the Uncle did the lewd and lascivious on a minor crime.

Also no need to speculate as to what the denial of a motion to dismiss means in this case thanks to Kccrzr's link to the actual Judge's opinion in post 57 on page 3.

Plaintiff's complaint alleges that the 13 year old boy along with several other young passengers where in the library (in the video you can see the victim, his brother and one other young male) when 2 visibly intoxicated adults entered and sexually assaulted and battered the 13 year old.

 

Plaintiff alleges over serving of alcohol but also, interestingly, plaintiff sets forth 2 alternative theories for liability relating to the camera monitoring: they allege that either no one was monitoring the cameras or that some one was monitoring the camera, but did not intervene. Thus, apparently plaintiff does not yet know whether anyone was watching that camera at the time of the incident.

The opinion linked by Kccrzr's post also mentions the facts in support of plaintiff's intentional infliction of emotional distress claim which I haven't seen discussed here.

Since this is only a denial of defendant's motion to dismiss there's no point in talking about the IIED claim IMO unless plaintiff survives summary judgement down the road - and the Judge seemed to be hinting pretty strongly that the IIED claim won't survive.

[ONECRUISER]

Track his/her smartphone

 

 

 

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Where was this technology when my kids were younger?

[kccrzr]

Two other cases involving Royal Caribbean were cited by the judge in denying the motion to dismiss. Each of those cases involved allegations of over serving of alcohol and failure to monitor security cameras or take action based upon actual observation of crew members. The plaintiff in one case and decedent in the other were both adults who themselves over-imbibed.

 

So I would expect this case will also be settled. The parents are not the true plaintiffs here, the child is the plaintiff but because a child can’t file suit the mother represents his interest. In cases involving minors judges can have money set aside in trust to ensure it is used for the benefit of the child.

[RDC1]

The bottom line is the judge saw a possibility for culpability on RCLs behalf and didn't dismiss the suit. She said a jury should have the final decision. That tells me that RCL might not so squeaky clean as some of you think they are. There are countless lawsuits that never see the light of day, apparently this isn't one of them.

 

Not quite. RCL filed a motion for dismissal. The Judge denied the dismissal because under the law there were not sufficient grounds to grant dismissal. Motions for dismissal are usually based upon technical issues with the case, such as jurisdiction. It is not about the merits of the case itself.

[mugtech]

Very disturbing thread.

[RDC1]

I'm not sure one can base a sound argument on cruise line provided statistics.

 

As with most institutions, there have been reports that complaints have been ignored or the incidents mischaracterized/misreported.

 

Find me a source that gives higher numbers. The cruise line numbers (reported as required under the law) were higher then anything else I found from any other source, including doing a search on news reports related to given cruise lines, as well as the ambulance chaser web site.

 

Bottom line is even increased by a factor of five they are safer then just about any small town of similar size in the US.

[RDC1]

3200 passengers @ $200 ea = $640,000. That's alot of security guards. My point is, it appears that every time an expense is thought to be warranted, there is at least one poster that throws up the arguement about additional costs on their cruise fare. Most of which does not equate accurately to the arguement.

 

This will be settled out of court. Yes there is a level of responsibility to the parent or guardian, but bottomline, RCL did not enforce THEIR own policy and therefore are negligent. This will not go to trial.

 

A bigger question is where are the additional personnel going to be housed. Crew housing capacity is one of the fundamental limits that the cruise lines have to deal with. Add more security personnel, means removing some personnel used for another function.

 

Bottom line is "THERE IS NO REASON TO", the cruise ships are safer then most towns in the US. Yet are all of you posting somewhere that your town needs more police, that they should be monitoring cameras on all the streets in your town.

 

This was a single event, that occurred years ago, yet people are acting like it is an everyday event.

 

Crime does occur on cruise ships, but at very low levels. The level of enforcement in place is reasonable for the level or risk. It is already higher then most hotels or land based resorts, and certainly much higher than is in place in the towns in which we live.

 

I think most people would be rather surprised if they actually took the time to talk to their local police force and see what the statistics are for their own communities.

 

As far as RCL goes they did enforce their own policy. Their policy is to inform parents that their is a curfew for children, which the parents allowed their children to violate. Their policy is to have cameras around the ship that are taped and provide information if an incident occurs and need to be investigate.

 

The plaintive is making the claims that RCL failed.

Edited June 25, 2018 by RDC1

[John&LaLa]

Where was this technology when my kids were younger?

Ankle bracelet maybe

 

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[RDC1]

13 pages over something that happened three years ago and a lawsuit that will likely never even make it to court in the first place. Royal will write a check and settle out of court is my guess, we will likely never hear the outcome and ALL of us will pay for it in the long run. Anyone have an idea of the monetary amount they are seeking?

 

I doubt that they will settle. The cruise lines have a consistent track record of fighting all cases, except those where they were clearly at fault, and even there they do not settle easily.

[RDC1]

In a decent portion of the world, assault is the act of unwanted physical contact.

 

We do not have a charge of assault and battery .

 

Not sure where you define decent. But both the UK and Canada have similar definitions that unwanted physical contact is battery and one can be guilty of assault without physical contact.

 

For example from the UK

 

An offence of Common Assault is committed when a person either assaults another person or commits a battery.

An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force. A battery is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly applies unlawful force to another.

So with Assault there does not have to be physical contact, only the need for a person to feel threatened that such contact could immediately occur.

[kccrzr]

Find me a source that gives higher numbers. The cruise line numbers (reported as required under the law) were higher then anything else I found from any other source, including doing a search on news reports related to given cruise lines, as well as the ambulance chaser web site.

 

I believe your numbers and resulting percentages are off. During 2017, Royal Caribbean reported 14 allegations of sexual assault against passengers and 3 against crew members. Celebrity reported 1 and 2 respectively. The reports are available at transportation.gov

 

Additionally, you appear to be using a worldwide number of passengers while the crime statistics are for cruises embarking or disembarking from US ports.

[grandgeezer]

Not sure where you define decent. But both the UK and Canada have similar definitions that unwanted physical contact is battery and one can be guilty of assault without physical contact.

 

For example from the UK

 

An offence of Common Assault is committed when a person either assaults another person or commits a battery.

An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force. A battery is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly applies unlawful force to another.

So with Assault there does not have to be physical contact, only the need for a person to feel threatened that such contact could immediately occur.

 

The last statement is exactly the guidelines we were given when I was on a jury three years ago. There was no physical contact, but based on the aforementioned guideline the accused was found guilty and got ten years.

[RDC1]

I believe your numbers and resulting percentages are off. During 2017, Royal Caribbean reported 14 allegations of sexual assault against passengers and 3 against crew members. Celebrity reported 1 and 2 respectively. The reports are available at transportation.gov

 

Additionally, you appear to be using a worldwide number of passengers while the crime statistics are for cruises embarking or disembarking from US ports.

 

Good catch. The numbers I did use was world wide. Best numbers I had available. I have not located a good source on the Royals share of the US market. I would expect it to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 70% of their total so without such a source lets do boundary calculations using your numbers (the numbers I had from a different year were RCL corporate, not broken out).

 

Lets assume that 50% of RCL passengers are cruises from the US (that is almost certainly a low estimate) and use that at one end of the boundary and use 70% as being the higher end of the boundary.

 

So lets take your numbers. With 17 cases and the US numbers estimated at 50% of total = .68 per 100K

17 and 60% = .56 per 100k

17 and 70% = .48 per 100k

 

While higher than the estimate earlier .17 per 100k, still much smaller than the US national average of 27.1 per 100k. They are really not materially much different. Cruise lines are very safe compared to US in general.

 

Would be interested if you have a good source of the market share breakout of US cruise market?

 

Am actually trying to find a source to look at specific towns to give one an idea of just how low that number is, but have not found a good source yet.

Edited June 25, 2018 by RDC1