Shocking 60% of guests removed gratuities on NV Transatlantic

[The_Big_M]

9 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

I doubt either of those are tipped positions though.

 

That's my point. Here, they don't need to be tipped positions. They work well without needing to be tipped. Twangster's post indicates a lack of attention to service, unless they're getting an extra tip. Which doesn't make them good employees; they'll just go wherever the money is best, and who cares about long term customer satisfaction...? 

 

Kinda explains some poor customer experiences you see elsewhere.

[Thorben-Hendrik]

33 minutes ago, The_Big_M said:

 

That's my point. Here, they don't need to be tipped positions. They work well without needing to be tipped. Twangster's post indicates a lack of attention to service, unless they're getting an extra tip. Which doesn't make them good employees; they'll just go wherever the money is best, and who cares about long term customer satisfaction...? 

 

Kinda explains some poor customer experiences you see elsewhere.

 That is absolutely the case! 😕

That's why tipping does not provide good service - they will just go after the money and let you down as soon as they can! 🙄

[twangster]

Just as I have a hard time understanding a system where all employees are paid the same regardless of their work ethic or performance people within different systems have a hard time understanding one that is not their own.  

 

I never realized that a compensation plan that includes a base pay component and a bonus component was less common outside of America.  

 

I've worked in a sales support role where a component of our potential compensation was related to sales targets.  If sales target were achieved, we all got a bonus.  I had coworkers who worked hard and I had coworkers whose brain and desire to work only showed up part time.  Yet we all received the same bonus when targets were met.  As a hard working individual I found that too socialistic and I longed for a system that allowed those doing most of the work to be rewarded better.

 

I imagine few young people are setting their lifetime career ambitions at being a cabin attendant or dining room waiter forever.  These are entry level positions.  In some cases conditions in their home country make these entry level positions into life long career positions.   This is how they are supporting their families year after year.

 

To suggest management can somehow motivate employees to do the jobs few people in any society desire to do is unfairly suggesting management is the same across the spectrum of all positions.  It is entirely different managing high paying career positions compared to entry level positions with high turn over.  In entry level positions bonus money is often used as motivator to create a work ethic as young people enter the work force.  

 

Automatic gratuity and service charges were put in place partly because the cross section of a ship's guest population varies.   As evidenced in this thread you have guests who can't afford it and you have guests that can afford it but choose not to pay it for their own gain.  Automatic gratuities were put in place to create a more even playing field for crew to receive their potential compensation but you can't just target those automatic gratuity charges without looking at the whole system of compensation. 

 

The ability for a guest to modify service charges is an important component of the system.  Note that it isn't black and white.  You can modify but not remove all service charges.    You don't have to entirely remove all service charges in this system and you can provide feedback such as the MDR wait staff were fine but the cabin attendant was not very good.  

 

This provides important feedback for management.  If a particular crew member often has their gratuity adjusted or removed by guests that is a performance indicator that management can use.  If a particular crew member is frequently seeing guests remove gratuity that is an indication that an action is required.  More training, a change of positions or termination may be appropriate.  

 

You may not agree with everything in this system and it may be very different from the ways of your home country but this is the system that is being used.  Be careful how you exercise your privilege to modify gratuity because it does have an impact on the crew.   

[Seville2Cabo]

These are just excuses to not pay tips.  Yes there are jobs in Australia that are not just base salary, but they receive commissions or bonuses to do a better job and work harder or sell more.  (Car salesman and other salesman).  Maybe in the Australian way these managers should be fired if they can’t motivate their sellers to sell more without a commission.   The only difference is that the commission is included in the sales price and the tip is up to you.  Wouldn’t you rather determine how good the service was and pay accordingly. 

To those that argue that the big bad corporation should pay a better wage, I think if you poll the employees (of cruise lines, bar and restaurants in the US), the vast majority would rather keep the current system.  It allows them to work harder and earn more money.  I know in my career if I worked harder made more money (bonuses, promotions, higher salary) and those that did not work hard made less and probably lost their job in time. 

I did get a laugh out of comparing customer service in a bus station in the US.  Sorry, but bus stations in the US are really not a place I would find myself and don’t think good or bad customer service drives more people to ride the bus.  Maybe look at customer service in the department of motor vehicles  

Australia used to be part of my sales territory and I traveled there often I still travel there today to see friends.  Service in Restaurants and bars is certainly a step below the US.  Even our local friends complain about service

[GUT2407]

1 hour ago, Seville2Cabo said:

 

 

To those that argue that the big bad corporation should pay a better wage, I think if you poll the employees (of cruise lines, bar and restaurants in the US), the vast majority would rather keep the current system. 

Well perhaps everyone should stop complaining and ame calling when people follow the current system.

 

which allows for adjustment ad removal of tips

[Seville2Cabo]

3 minutes ago, GUT2407 said:

Well perhaps everyone should stop complaining and ame calling when people follow the current system.

 

which allows for adjustment ad removal of tips 

I agree.  The system allows for it.  I never have, but it is certainly everyone's right regardless of the level of service received.

 

The people that do remove should at least be honest and call it what it is - removal to save money.  All the rest is misdirection and poor attempts to justify not tipping.

 

[davekathy]

5 minutes ago, Seville2Cabo said:

I agree.  The system allows for it.  I never have, but it is certainly everyone's right regardless of the level of service received.

 

The people that do remove should at least be honest and call it what it is - removal to save money.  All the rest is misdirection and poor attempts to justify not tipping.

 

You don't that. 

[Thorben-Hendrik]

3 hours ago, twangster said:

Note that it isn't black and white.  You can modify but not remove all service charges.    You don't have to entirely remove all service charges in this system and you can provide feedback such as the MDR wait staff were fine but the cabin attendant was not very good.  

Not possible with RCI

[Thorben-Hendrik]

3 hours ago, twangster said:

This provides important feedback for management.  If a particular crew member often has their gratuity adjusted or removed by guests that is a performance indicator that management can use.  If a particular crew member is frequently seeing guests remove gratuity that is an indication that an action is required.  More training, a change of positions or termination may be appropriate.  

Not used at RCI!

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, momto2js said:

I have recently had to personally consider the daily service fee (of what ever you want to call it) in regards to an overall BAD experience.  We had a delayed embarcation and did not board until 1am.  So in short, we miss the first day on board.  For my family of 4, paying $60 for something we didnt get felt, well wrong.  However I knew the crew still worked that day, in particular the room steward worked 48 hours with just about 5 off.  

 

So in the end, I did remove the first days prepaid service fee, and I left it in cash for the steward.  I also have done some mental math and do not believe the crew gets all of the collected service fee in addition to a salary.  So for this one day, that was a pretty awful way to start a trip, I decided the line would not get my service fee.  It would not surprise me to hear that many removed the entire trip after how embarkation was handled and how concerns after boarding were addressed.  

 

 

First off, let me say that I seriously doubt the cabin steward worked 48 hours with 5 hours off.  That is a violation of the STCW convention, and both the crew member and the cruise line are liable for serious fines for doing anything like this.  Work/rest hours are routinely audited by both the classification society which gives the ship it's certificate to sail, and the "port state" control entity like the USCG.  The STCW requires a minimum of 10 hours rest in any 24 hour period and 77 hours in any 7 day period.  Even countries like Brazil, who don't have the best worker protection laws, have detained cruise ships for violations of the STCW work/rest protocols.  Also know that the DSC makes up about 80-95% of the DSC pool crew's salary, they don't get the DSC in addition to a salary.  The only thing the cruise line is required to guarantee is that the crew makes the minimum wage for a seafarer, of $614/month, plus overtime, or about $1200/month total, so only when DSC is reduced below this amount does the cruise line have to pony up any money at all to pay these crew, over the couple of dollars/day that is the base salary.

[George C]

Tip should be included in fare, we still tip above amount removed for tips , brought a hundred in singles another hundred in 5 and tens last week. 

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, George C said:

Tip should be included in fare, 

I don't dispute this, I don't like the DSC business model any more than the crew or passengers do, but that's the system in place pretty much across the industry.  I also want to state that I think that RCI made up the DSC for all the passengers that cancelled due to the itinerary change (as they have done in the past, and as was probably required to make up the minimum wage), so I don't believe the crew suffered as much as they'd like you to believe with a figure of 60%, though it wouldn't surprise me to hear that that was the figure for the remaining passengers.

[grapau27]

18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

First off, let me say that I seriously doubt the cabin steward worked 48 hours with 5 hours off.  That is a violation of the STCW convention, and both the crew member and the cruise line are liable for serious fines for doing anything like this.  Work/rest hours are routinely audited by both the classification society which gives the ship it's certificate to sail, and the "port state" control entity like the USCG.  The STCW requires a minimum of 10 hours rest in any 24 hour period and 77 hours in any 7 day period.  Even countries like Brazil, who don't have the best worker protection laws, have detained cruise ships for violations of the STCW work/rest protocols.  Also know that the DSC makes up about 80-95% of the DSC pool crew's salary, they don't get the DSC in addition to a salary.  The only thing the cruise line is required to guarantee is that the crew makes the minimum wage for a seafarer, of $614/month, plus overtime, or about $1200/month total, so only when DSC is reduced below this amount does the cruise line have to pony up any money at all to pay these crew, over the couple of dollars/day that is the base salary.

Thanks as always for an expert's summary of crew working conditions as well as all the information about how a ship works.

[marylizcat]

It is a mistake to think that tips somehow improve service levels. We have cruised with more than a dozen different lines and the best service of all has been on Thomson/Marella where tips are included in the fare. All the crew seem to go about with happy smiling faces providing excellent service. P&O (UK) are going to include then from next May too. It is the way forward. 

[Thorben-Hendrik]

Just now, marylizcat said:

It is a mistake to think that tips somehow improve service levels. We have cruised with more than a dozen different lines and the best service of all has been on Thomson/Marella where tips are included in the fare. All the crew seem to go about with happy smiling faces providing excellent service. P&O (UK) are going to include then from next May too. It is the way forward. 

More and more cruise lines go that way ....TUI cruises, AIDA, ....rumors say Costa and MSC will be next....

[voyager70]

14 hours ago, Bloodgem said:

Have you worked in a supermarket?

Customers shouting at you because the store has not got their favourite brand in stock.  Cashiers been shouted at because the till glitches and one of my favourites is customers who shout at you because you have had to interrupt their phone call to ask for payment. 

After been shouted at by several customers the staff training tends to get forgotten.

 

Completely agree.  Never worked in a supermarket but I worked in a sporting goods store 4 years while in college and can totally relate to this.  Once had a woman berate me up and down in front of other customers and employees because we didn't have a track suit she wished to buy in the specific color she wanted.  Another time I was having a hard time finding an item for a customer.  He called me stupid and said "no wonder you work in a store". It took every bit of restraint in my body not to tell him off.  And the countless times people angrily complained about prices, as if we had anything to do with pricing.  You definitely get cautious/defensive after dealing with attitudes like this over a period of time.

 

[grapau27]

2 minutes ago, voyager70 said:

 

Completely agree.  Never worked in a supermarket but I worked in a sporting goods store 4 years while in college and can totally relate to this.  Once had a woman berate me up and down in front of other customers and employees because we didn't have a track suit she wished to buy in the specific color she wanted.  Another time I was having a hard time finding an item for a customer.  He called me stupid and said "no wonder you work in a store". It took every bit of restraint in my body not to tell him off.  And the countless times people angrily complained about prices, as if we had anything to do with pricing.  You definitely get cautious/defensive after dealing with attitudes like this over a period of time.

 

These customers are bullies shouting at store staff knowing full well the staff can't shout back because they would risk losing their jobs.

[voyager70]

2 minutes ago, grapau27 said:

These customers are bullies shouting at store staff knowing full well the staff can't shout back because they would risk losing their jobs.

 

Exactly.  As a college student with limited funds I couldn't risk losing my job.

 

[terrierjohn]

5 minutes ago, marylizcat said:

It is a mistake to think that tips somehow improve service levels. We have cruised with more than a dozen different lines and the best service of all has been on Thomson/Marella where tips are included in the fare. All the crew seem to go about with happy smiling faces providing excellent service. P&O (UK) are going to include then from next May too. It is the way forward. 

Whilst tips are discretionary, and there is lots of anecdotal comments that cruise lines are now paying crew a contract rate that includes the tip element, I no longer feel that I should be pressured into "making up the wages of the poor underpaid crew to a more reasonable level".

P&O in the UK are the first major cruise line to now include gratuities in the cruise fare following on from their Australian subsidiary, this IMO is the only fair way to operate, only then can we be certain that every passenger is paying on the same level playing field, fluid pricing notwithstanding.

[Ourusualbeach]

I truly hope that all those removing gratuities (just as they are rightfully allowed) at least have the b**** to do so on the first day and tell the employees why they have removed them.  If you can do that then I respect your decision, what I don’t respect is those that remove them the last day and leave the staff feeling like they did something wrong.

[Colorado Babe]

WE just recently started removing tips and now pay as we go.  Since we do the specialty dining every night we tip them each night.  We don't do breakfast but eat in the dining room or windjammer lunch and leave a tip there.  We also tip the concierge and the stateroom attendant via white envelopes. When we go to the DL or CL we tip each drink that we order.  We have heard to many stories and want the money going to those that serve us.  Plus, we've been told that using the auto gratuities, the stateroom attendants, dining room staff have to pool the tips.  Not Fair.  We tip like we would in the U.S. Cash and we let our stateroom attendant know as soon as we see him and also give him money to take when he gets off the ship to do something special while he is on break.! 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Colorado Babe

[grapau27]

2 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

I truly hope that all those removing gratuities (just as they are rightfully allowed) at least have the b**** to do so on the first day and tell the employees why they have removed them.  If you can do that then I respect your decision, what I don’t respect is those that remove them the last day and leave the staff feeling like they did something wrong.

Excellent comments.

We prepay our RC tips and auto-pay on other lines.

I would never remove ours.

 

[Thorben-Hendrik]

6 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

I truly hope that all those removing gratuities (just as they are rightfully allowed) at least have the b**** to do so on the first day and tell the employees why they have removed them.  If you can do that then I respect your decision, what I don’t respect is those that remove them the last day and leave the staff feeling like they did something wrong.

I doubt it really matters in any way to the crew!🤔

Have never seen any difference!😎

[terrierjohn]

18 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

I truly hope that all those removing gratuities (just as they are rightfully allowed) at least have the b**** to do so on the first day and tell the employees why they have removed them.

Why should the staff, other than Passenger services, be advised what I do?

 If you can do that then I respect your decision, what I don’t respect is those that remove them the last day and leave the staff feeling like they did something wrong.

Why would the staff be worried I might think they did something wrong?

You never queried my suggestion that staff might no longer rely on the auto tip pool to make up their wages.  Do you seriously think that in this "social media" world the staff are not savvy enough to ensure that their contracted salary is not subject to the whims of passengers tips.  The ones paying too much for their cruise are those that still succumb to the peer pressure that means if you don't tip you're a tightwad. 

P&O have done the honest thing, as more and more passengers stopped tipping they eventually realised how unfair it was on those that still tipped, and decided to drop the pretense and do away with auto tipping entirely.  In the future if I experience extra special service from someone then I will tip them in cash, but certainly not to the current auto tip level.

[Ourusualbeach]

11 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

You never queried my suggestion that staff might no longer rely on the auto tip pool to make up their wages.  Do you seriously think that in this "social media" world the staff are not savvy enough to ensure that their contracted salary is not subject to the whims of passengers tips.  The ones paying too much for their cruise are those that still succumb to the peer pressure that means if you don't tip you're a tightwad. 

P&O have done the honest thing, as more and more passengers stopped tipping they eventually realised how unfair it was on those that still tipped, and decided to drop the pretense and do away with auto tipping entirely.  In the future if I experience extra special service from someone then I will tip them in cash, but certainly not to the current auto tip level.

The  staff have no control over their contracted wage.  The cruise line tells them what they will pay.  The choice the staff have is to accept the contract or not.

 

The staffs wage is guaranteed to a minimum, what they can make with their gratuities is well beyond that minimum., why else would staff be wanting to not accept contracts to work in Europe or be putting in transfer requests to leave ships prior to it heading to Europe.

 

If you think that the staff don’t know who removes their gratuities then I’ve got some land in Florida to sell you.