Vision Class Being Sold?

[rattla]

1 hour ago, island lady said:

Found it strange that RCI bought back the Empress, and cancelled the sale on Majesty...but supposedly it was to be able to call on Cuba.  Though they sold Splendour and Legend.  

 

Miss the Legend, love the Vision class series.  

 

Had lunch with IT manager on Rhapsody two years ago, who told us she was being sold the end of the year...but she is still here.  🙂 

 

You can still travel on her as Marella Discovery 2 😁

[John&LaLa]

28 minutes ago, BND said:

There's overall less crew on Vision class.  Less entertainment staff.  Less bartenders, waiters, stewards.  Less high tech maintenance issues (bionic bars, rising tide, ifly, flowrider, just pure square footage).  Officers are always a small percentage of the entire crew on a ship.  

 

I doubt the ratio of waiters, housekeepers, barman is that much different on a per passenger basis. According to Cheng the lower ratio of officers to passengers is a big advantage of the mega ships

[John&LaLa]

35 minutes ago, BND said:

Yes.  That's been stated in several Captain's Corners.

 

Then there is your answer to make Baltimore viable. Prices may go up, though.

[CarpeCerevisi]

Splendor and Legend were the oldest and smallest of the Vision "class", actually built as three pairs of two with each pair differing from the other pairs. It made sense that they were chosen to be the first to go. It will be a sad day in my mind when they are all gone as I like the layout of those ships even with the limited number of balcony cabins.

[AL3XCruise]

3 hours ago, HBE4 said:

 

Totally agree. Royal seems to want to expand the size of its fleet and passenger capacity while offering something for everyone.

 

As long as the smaller/older ships continue to sell, they will be around. Maybe not all but most.....purely my speculation.

 

Exactly.  Over time, I'm sure they become less profitable than there larger cousins due to rising maintenance costs and a reputation of "old and small" driving down prices.  Eventually the value of quick cash from a sale will exceed the future earning potential of the ship, particularly if that money can be reinvested into a more lucrative ship.  But until that math works out, the small ships keep sailing.

1 hour ago, Biker19 said:

Grandeur  consistently has some of the lowest per day rates of any non repo sailings- I have a feeling the profits from other ships are subsidizing its existence. 

 

I very much doubt that.  RCI would move or sell the ship long before it was operating in the red.

 

20 minutes ago, John&LaLa said:

 

I doubt the ratio of waiters, housekeepers, barman is that much different on a per passenger basis. According to Cheng the lower ratio of officers to passengers is a big advantage of the mega ships

 

I agree.  I imagine there are some savings on small ship due to fewer amenities, but based on what I have read (and seen corroborated by folks like Cheng) it generally doesn't make up for the economies of scale enjoyed by large ships.  That said, as mentioned above, small ships are still profitable; otherwise, they would be gone!

[John&LaLa]

4 minutes ago, AL3XCruise said:

 

Exactly.  Over time, I'm sure they become less profitable than there larger cousins due to rising maintenance costs and a reputation of "old and small" driving down prices.  Eventually the value of quick cash from a sale will exceed the future earning potential of the ship, particularly if that money can be reinvested into a more lucrative ship.  But until that math works out, the small ships keep sailing.

 

I very much doubt that.  RCI would move or sell the ship long before it was operating in the red.

 

 

I agree.  I imagine there are some savings on small ship due to fewer amenities, but based on what I have read (and seen corroborated by folks like Cheng) it generally doesn't make up for the economies of scale enjoyed by large ships.  That said, as mentioned above, small ships are still profitable; otherwise, they would be gone!

 

Profitable yes, but how profitable is the question.  It's all about ROI

[AL3XCruise]

Just now, John&LaLa said:

 

Profitable yes, but how profitable is the question.  It's all about ROI

That's basically what I said in my first paragraph, except assuming the Vision class ships are paid off and not expected to receive major refurbishments, you are looking primarily cash streams from operations more than considering an initial investment.  Once the value of that drops below what they can get for a sale, the ship is sold.

[actuarian]

6 hours ago, parrotfeathers said:

I just hope RCL continues to offer 4/5 night cruises.  I just cannot be gone 7 nights (plus one for day before arrival).

 

About a year ago, my wife and I had dinner at an officer's table and actually discussed this matter with the Hotel Director on our cruise.  We were told that Royal Caribbean considers the 3 and 4 night cruises (but not so much the 5 night cruises) to be a very important part of their planning for the future.  Many young business people are in extremely competitive positions and do not feel able to get away from their employment long enough for a 7-night cruise.  However, Royal Caribbean's marketing people believe that this will change as they get older and more settled in their positions and they will be the 7-night cruisers of the future.  Meanwhile, Royal Caribbean can both profit and secure their brand loyalty by improving the 3 and 4 night cruises.  That is why Royal Caribbean has assigned the newly renovated Mariner and Navigator to the shorter cruises.  The 3-night cruises that embark on Fridays and disembark on Mondays are particularly targeted to younger cruisers since they keep the time away from work to an absolute minimum.  Those young cruisers try to get as much as possible out of their short vacations so they purchase a lot of drink packages and shore excursions, while also spending money at the casinos and specialty restaurants.  That is all profit for the cruise line so the short cruises will last for a long time.

[Biker19]

2 hours ago, alfaeric said:

Can't say that we've consistently noticed that, as, if it were true and consistent, we would be sailing out of Baltimore a whole lot more.  By far, it's the cheapest place for us to fly to.  We search every port in North America when the time comes to find something, and we don't find it as cheap as you suggest.

Look at CruisePlum and do a search of inside cabin costs per day across the entire RCI fleet and exclude repos - Vision class ships, including Grandeur, make up the majority of the listings at the low end with Voyager class making up most of the rest (with a healthy sprinkling of Majesty). The one thing that bumps Vision class up in price is if you want to sail in balconies which the class has the fewest in proportion to the entire ship and therefore has a very big price diff from insides compared to other classes. 

[Biker19]

3 hours ago, BND said:

  The Grandeur costs a lot less to operate per person than the larger ships.  

Those dry docks every 2.5 years are not cheap.

[parrotfeathers]

2 hours ago, actuarian said:

About a year ago, my wife and I had dinner at an officer's table and actually discussed this matter with the Hotel Director on our cruise.  We were told that Royal Caribbean considers the 3 and 4 night cruises (but not so much the 5 night cruises) to be a very important part of their planning for the future.  Many young business people are in extremely competitive positions and do not feel able to get away from their employment long enough for a 7-night cruise.  However, Royal Caribbean's marketing people believe that this will change as they get older and more settled in their positions and they will be the 7-night cruisers of the future.  Meanwhile, Royal Caribbean can both profit and secure their brand loyalty by improving the 3 and 4 night cruises.  That is why Royal Caribbean has assigned the newly renovated Mariner and Navigator to the shorter cruises.  The 3-night cruises that embark on Fridays and disembark on Mondays are particularly targeted to younger cruisers since they keep the time away from work to an absolute minimum.  Those young cruisers try to get as much as possible out of their short vacations so they purchase a lot of drink packages and shore excursions, while also spending money at the casinos and specialty restaurants.  That is all profit for the cruise line so the short cruises will last for a long time.

 

Thanks for this!   I'm on Navigator this November.   One day I will be able to do more 7 day cruises but just not right now.   I have researched other lines and RCL definitely is in the lead for the 3/4 night cruises.

[chengkp75]

17 hours ago, John&LaLa said:

 

I doubt the ratio of waiters, housekeepers, barman is that much different on a per passenger basis. According to Cheng the lower ratio of officers to passengers is a big advantage of the mega ships

Not exactly what I said. The cost of one set of officers for a mega ship is less than the cost of two sets of officers for two smaller ships carrying the same number of passengers.

[chengkp75]

15 hours ago, Biker19 said:

Those dry docks every 2.5 years are not cheap.

Plus the inspections become far more intense than for newer ships, with the possibility of steel replacement based on the additional inspections. Cost to operate a ship rises exponentially with age, starting at about 15 years.

[Clarea]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Plus the inspections become far more intense than for newer ships, with the possibility of steel replacement based on the additional inspections. Cost to operate a ship rises exponentially with age, starting at about 15 years.

 

Is 15 years of age when the inspection period drops to 2.5 years?

[island lady]

21 hours ago, John&LaLa said:

 

Will a Radiance ship fit into Baltimore?

 

No...no...I want a Radiance class home ported here in PC.    Like a 10/11 night cruise option? 🙂 

[Clarea]

3 minutes ago, island lady said:

 

No...no...I want a Radiance class home ported here in PC.    Like a 10/11 night cruise option? 🙂 

 

RC had some longer cruises with Explorer out of PC a few years ago that were very popular.

[island lady]

21 hours ago, CarpeCerevisi said:

Splendor and Legend were the oldest and smallest of the Vision "class", actually built as three pairs of two with each pair differing from the other pairs. It made sense that they were chosen to be the first to go. It will be a sad day in my mind when they are all gone as I like the layout of those ships even with the limited number of balcony cabins.

 

Agree...I am already bummed out that Enchantment returned to PC...only to leave again.  😞  Mariner is fine, but still enjoy the ambiance of the smaller ships like Vision class and Radiance.  

[island lady]

12 minutes ago, Host Clarea said:

 

RC had some longer cruises with Explorer out of PC a few years ago that were very popular.

 

Yes indeed we did.  Many of us were soooo excited to finally get a third ship home ported here in PC.  Loved, loved the nine night cruise choice on EX.   Really enjoyed the cruise.  Plus it sailed full each time...was so sure it was a test market for RCI, proving it was profitable.  Then for some reason...eh...it was the only season they did that.  😞  

 

Big new terminal...only two ships home ported here.  Shame.  

Edited March 24, 2019 by island lady

[John&LaLa]

10 minutes ago, Host Clarea said:

 

RC had some longer cruises with Explorer out of PC a few years ago that were very popular.

 

My point was having ships available for the US departure ports that have size restrictions. Tampa and Baltimore come to mind.

[island lady]

4 minutes ago, John&LaLa said:

 

My point was having ships available for the US departure ports that have size restrictions. Tampa and Baltimore come to mind.

 

Maybe they will change the Sunshine Skyway bridge to a draw bridge?  😉 😄 

[Clarea]

4 minutes ago, island lady said:

 

Maybe they will change the Sunshine Skyway bridge to a draw bridge?  😉 😄 

 

Or build a cruise terminal in Bradenton or Sarasota.🙂

[island lady]

2 minutes ago, Host Clarea said:

 

Or build a cruise terminal in Bradenton or Sarasota.🙂

 

I could go for that!  Fort Myers Beach too.  🙂   

 

Me...I would love a channel dug to the swamp where I live.... that would really be nice!  😄 Get out of the way Alligators, ship coming through!  Actually saw a lot of them having to get out of the way when we went through the Panama Canal.  😮 

[Saab4444]

1 hour ago, Host Clarea said:

 

Is 15 years of age when the inspection period drops to 2.5 years?

After 20

[twangster]

2018 revenue by ship:

 

Harmony $485,570,000 - 295,000 passengers
Ovation $443,940,000 - 293,000 passengers
Allure $422,500,000 - 313,000 passengers
Oasis $403,340,000 - 307,000 passengers
Symphony $396,500,000 - 171,000 passengers
Anthem $371,150,000 - 232,000 passengers
Quantum $366,160,000 -  442,000 passengers
Explorer $318,350,000 - 122,000 passengers
Freedom $283,200,000 - 198,000 passengers
Radiance $256,910,000 - 72,000 passengers
Independence $ 256,190,000 - 210,000 passengers
Liberty $245,160,000 - 210,000 passengers
Voyager $234,480,000 - 168,000 passengers
Mariner $224,230,000 - 295,000 passengers
Adventure $219,370,000 - 175,000 passengers
Navigator $212,870,000 - 146,000 passengers
Serenade $174,410,000 - 90,000 passengers
Jewel $168,660,000 - 112,000 passengers
Brilliance $152,600,000 - 113,000 passengers
Enchantment $151,980,000 - 257,000 passengers
Rhapsody $139,520,000 - 117,000 passengers
Majesty $137,110,000 - 269,000 passengers
Vision $ 133,020,000 - 95,000 passengers
Grandeur $ 128,570,000 - 89,000 passengers
Empress $ 113,720,000 - 139,000 passengers

 

source: www.cruisemarketwatch.com

 

Vision class rank in the lowest 6 positions.  Empress/Majesty exist in the fleet due to Cuba.  Once Cuban infrastructure can accomodate larger ships they'll likely be looked at with greater scrutiny depending how Cuba as a destination works out.

 

Not all smaller ships are low revenue.  Look at Radiance in the top 10 thanks to Alaska and Australia.  Fewest passengers carried yet 10th in revenue.  

 

So the Vision question is... does the $128M Grandeur brings in or the $133M Vision brings in make it worthwhile to keep them around?  How much would they get for them?  At what point is it no longer viable to keep up with the maintenance required?

 

At some point they will leave the fleet, the only question is... when?

[John&LaLa]

1 hour ago, Host Clarea said:

 

Or build a cruise terminal in Bradenton or Sarasota.🙂

 

Now you're getting greedy