Exaggerated or Not?

[SRF]

On 9/6/2019 at 5:33 PM, ed01106 said:

 

1. Don’t serve minors or allow minors to drink in the bars.  An obligation of every land based bar in the USA.  Use wrist bands or simply excluded anyone under 21.  They do an excellent job of preventing drinks acquired via from the drink package being passed to someone not on the drink package.  They can apply equal effort to prevent drinks purchased by 21 yo from being passed to minors.

 

2. Identify people who have had too many and prevent them from continuing to drink.Once again an obligation of every land based establishment. 

 

1)  Only way to do that is to prevent them to enter at all.   And I disagree that they do such a good job in preventing sharing of drinks.  Maybe if you are sitting at the bar, but otherwise, not at all.

 

2)  Only if they are serving them directly.  If someone is given them the drinks, they are not watching them.

[Bloodgem]

When did it become acceptable for people to get that drunk that they have to rely on complete strangers to keep them safe?

I know the girl, in question, was only 15 at the time but surely she must have had some awareness that she was drinking alcohol.

You normally don't go from sober to completely drunk without going through other phases, happiness, tiredness etc. 

Unless I am to believe this was the first time the girl had drunk alcohol. 

[calliopecruiser]

3 hours ago, Bloodgem said:

When did it become acceptable for people to get that drunk that they have to rely on complete strangers to keep them safe?

Since forever.  (OK, I don't think anyone has said what this girl did was acceptable, only that the consequences of her mistake shouldn't have been what they were).

 

Do you think it was never common for people to get so drunk or high as to be at risk of personal or financial harm?  It's happened for millennia, and people lost things because of that for millennia (lost their money, lost their health, lost their lives). 

[Toofarfromthesea]

6 hours ago, calliopecruiser said:

Since forever.  (OK, I don't think anyone has said what this girl did was acceptable, only that the consequences of her mistake shouldn't have been what they were).

 

Do you think it was never common for people to get so drunk or high as to be at risk of personal or financial harm?  It's happened for millennia, and people lost things because of that for millennia (lost their money, lost their health, lost their lives). 

 

Stupidity has consequences.  It doesn't reduce the culpability of the rapist to say that serious stupidity was at play here in the actions of the girl and/or parents to create a vulnerability that got exploited.  If you don't lock your door and get robbed, the robbers are completely culpable for their crime, but the homeowner was still colossally stupid.  We have somehow gotten to a point where people do all kinds of stupid things that have natural consequences but somehow think they should be immune from those consequences.  Reality doesn't operate like that.

[cruisemom42]

10 hours ago, Bloodgem said:

When did it become acceptable for people to get that drunk that they have to rely on complete strangers to keep them safe?

I know the girl, in question, was only 15 at the time but surely she must have had some awareness that she was drinking alcohol.

You normally don't go from sober to completely drunk without going through other phases, happiness, tiredness etc. 

Unless I am to believe this was the first time the girl had drunk alcohol. 

 

I see you are from the UK where exposure to alcohol often happens at an earlier age. 

 

In the US the legal drinking age is 21 years, and many people do not serve alcohol commonly at meals at home and thus facilitate an earlier introduction to it.

 

So yes, it is entirely possible that it was her first exposure to alcohol.

 

 

[mjkacmom]

24 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Stupidity has consequences.  It doesn't reduce the culpability of the rapist to say that serious stupidity was at play here in the actions of the girl and/or parents to create a vulnerability that got exploited.  If you don't lock your door and get robbed, the robbers are completely culpable for their crime, but the homeowner was still colossally stupid.  We have somehow gotten to a point where people do all kinds of stupid things that have natural consequences but somehow think they should be immune from those consequences.  Reality doesn't operate like that.

So rape is a natural consequence of getting drunk? At 15? By grown men?

[calliopecruiser]

26 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Stupidity has consequences. 

Of course it does.........but all consequences are not equal, nor should they be.  There isn't a moral equivalence here.

 

The consequences for being stupid enough to get that drunk should be that you spend half the night vomiting and fall asleep on the bathroom floor, missing an important event the next day -  not that you get sexually and physically assaulted by a bunch of criminals.

[DarrenM]

Exactly. Still staggers me that so called sane people seem to be of the opinion that a 15 year old getting drunk can expect to be assaulted.

 

Oh and  very few people in the uk expose their children to alcohol when they are 15.

 

They may go to a party and get some but that's something you hope doesn't happen.

 

 

[Bloodgem]

10 hours ago, calliopecruiser said:

Do you think it was never common for people to get so drunk or high as to be at risk of personal or financial harm?  It's happened for millennia, and people lost things because of that for millennia (lost their money, lost their health, lost their lives). 

Of course there has always been people that have been that drunk that they have to rely on others to look after them.

 

It just seems, to me, that it is becoming more common and some people seem to think it's perfectly normal behaviour until something happens to them.

[calliopecruiser]

24 minutes ago, Bloodgem said:

and some people seem to think it's perfectly normal behaviour until something happens to them.

Such is the nature of youth, thinking it will never happen to them. 

 

Teens and young adults are actually wired to take more risks, generally in pursuit of "fitting in" and being accepted.  Their brains reward them more for that than do the brains of adults. 

[Toofarfromthesea]

5 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

So rape is a natural consequence of getting drunk? At 15? By grown men?

 

Not always, but as proven by this case, sometimes.

You are arguing with reality, not me.  You don't get to choose your consequence for acting stupidly.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Toofarfromthesea

[geoherb]

The article is sensationalistic and just provides one party's point of view since the cruise line would not comment on pending litigation. One thing it gets wrong is saying that there is no equivalent of police on cruise ships. Security can confine someone to their cabin or even the onboard brig if necessary until turning them over to authorities. 

[calliopecruiser]

9 minutes ago, geoherb said:

One thing it gets wrong is saying that there is no equivalent of police on cruise ships. Security can confine someone to their cabin or even the onboard brig if necessary until turning them over to authorities. 

A security guard is not in any way equivalent to the police.   It's good they're there, but they're not the police and they can't investigate a crime. 

[DarrenM]

5 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Not always, but as proven by this case, sometimes.

You are arguing with reality, not me.  You don't get to choose your consequence for acting stupidly.

I have no idea what you are really implying here. Maybe I am not intelligent enough.

 

There have been many reported cases of childeren being sexually assaulted down the years, the majority of whom were not drunk, nor had seemingly done anything wrong whatsoever. I wonder what stupid thing they had done to deserve the consequence that happened?

 

I can think of no reason, whether getting stupidly drunk, or any other stupid behaviour, that deserves a consequence like this thread is about.

 

Some utterly bizarre comments on this thread. Way beyond me.

 

 

[Bloodgem]

It does not matter what others think, there seems to be a couple of posters on this thread that seem to want to defend this girl and other young drunken teens no matter what. So for that reason I'm out of here.  

 

What happened to this girl was horrible and should never have happened but I'm more disgusted by some posters thinking that she did not contribute to this. The girl admits to feeling uncomfortable being surrounded by these men but did nothing. She did not alert staff; she did not text her family for help (unless some posters want me to believe she did not have a mobile); she did  go to the restroom to get away from these men.

 

Before I go I this website makes interesting reading. https://www.alcohol.org/teens/ 

 

[DarrenM]

Have a look at the law of the land, any democratic land, there isnt anything that gives an excuse for a sexual assault.

 

Therefore you are wrong. 100% WRONG.

 

And you more disgusted that she "contributed" to her assault, than you are that she was assaulted at all?

 

I am truly staggered.

 

 

[MicCanberra]

Unbelievable what has been posted, especially with how the victim is blamed for their own behaviour and therefore deserved it.

[geoffrywillhardt]

On 9/6/2019 at 4:05 PM, Lottacruises said:

 

You're right, just like I know they aren't going to let me down the slide with this big ole tube..... advertising!

As you can see from the sky ride in the back thats a vista class ship and the water slides on those ships require tubes. 

[geoffrywillhardt]

error in quoting sorry 

Edited September 9, 2019 by geoffrywillhardt
error

[geoffrywillhardt]

1 hour ago, MicCanberra said:

Unbelievable what has been posted, especially with how the victim is blamed for their own behaviour and therefore deserved it.

Sorry not sorry but some victims do bare some responsibility for their actions.  Not saying she deserved it, but sometimes if you don't put yourself in a situation to be taken advantage of then you wont be. Its common sense that probably was not taught to this 15 yr old or she made a bad choice and chose to ignore common sense. Regardless she knew she was to young to drink alcohol and drank it anyway which without a doubt contributed to the situation.  

[DarrenM]

You really believe that someone that has been sexually assaulted is in some way responsible?

 

You genuinely believe that?

 

My only hope is that you are not a high court judge. God help us all if you are.

 

 

[DarrenM]

And I am so glad you are not saying she deserved it.  That will make her feel much better about the assault.

[ReneeFLL]

4 hours ago, DarrenM said:

Have a look at the law of the land, any democratic land, there isnt anything that gives an excuse for a sexual assault.

 

Therefore you are wrong. 100% WRONG.

 

And you more disgusted that she "contributed" to her assault, than you are that she was assaulted at all?

 

I am truly staggered.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, MicCanberra said:

Unbelievable what has been posted, especially with how the victim is blamed for their own behaviour and therefore deserved it.

I don't think anyone here is saying that her drinking caused the assault. It was the horrific men that did. If I understand correctly they are saying her being drunk contributed to her being assaulted. Had she not been drunk there would've been a greater chance that she wouldn't have put herself in that position, therefore making the chances of getting raped more less likely. It's very sad what happened to this young lady, but do you really think she would've gone to the room with them if she was sober? I would hope not. She allowed herself to get drunk which probably contributed to the assault by making it easier to get her into the room. That's how I feel about it.

 

Also, even if it was the first time that she has had alcohol I would think she would have started to feel strange, weird, not so good, etc and that should have made her stop drinking. You just don't go from sober to sloshed without feeling it first. All around it's a sad situation and I hope the perps get what they should. Like someone else said, put them in a cell with Big Bubba.

 

 

[Lottacruises]

2 hours ago, geoffrywillhardt said:

As you can see from the sky ride in the back thats a vista class ship and the water slides on those ships require tubes. 

 

 

I guess I'll have to unpack the tube then.

[geoffrywillhardt]

5 minutes ago, Lottacruises said:

 

 

I guess I'll have to unpack the tube then.

Id say bring it, I haven't found any rules against using them in the pool. You can also use them in the ocean. We usually bring a couple of inexpensive tubes to use at the beach and if we don't have enough room to bring them home we just leave them in our room or throw them away. :)