Cancelling Cruises because of the C word

[terrierjohn]

3 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

I wish I shared your confidence that the NHS can somehow find another 300,000 or so intensive care beds, plus staff, plus ventilators, when it can't cope even with existing demands. Because that's the sort of number we're talking about with an infection rate of just 50% and 10% of those needing emergency respiratory treatment.

You do look on the black side Harry, a real glass half empty sort of guy.

I cannot believe that your fears of the infection rate, and its outcomes, will be anywhere near your figures, but I do admit I am occasionally wrong.

[staygulf]

4 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I have had a similar non committal reply saying that my initial claim should be on my insurer, assistance would be available at the port, whatever that means, but no mention that P&O would consider a refund.

Needless to say I have asked for further clarification.

I will also be pursuing with my insurer to see if they offer the same cover as AXA.

Why would you want to claim under your insurance and risk higher future premiums when they are obligated to refund you under the Package Travel Regulations. It’s UK law. They can’t shrug their obligations under law. 

[Harry Peterson]

6 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

You do look on the black side Harry, a real glass half empty sort of guy.

I cannot believe that your fears of the infection rate, and its outcomes, will be anywhere near your figures, but I do admit I am occasionally wrong.

I'd say realist, John, and we're now in the position I've been concerned about for some time, even though it was against the general opinion of these forums. I hope I'm wrong, I'd be delighted to be wrong, but essentially we look now to be entering the stage that China entered into some weeks back. Containment is accepted as only a temporary measure, and after that the spread is predicted to be up to 70% of the population. We're no different from China, but probably less well able to react as quickly, effectively and decisively once they realised the problem.

 

Wuhan yesterday, London tomorrow. Can't see any compelling reason why we should be any different.

[majortom10]

3 hours ago, Adawn47 said:

This is probably not relevant under the specific circumstances being discussed,  but my friend booked a Thomas Cook holiday through a TA. When the company collapsed it took 3 months to get her refund.

Slightly different scenario when a TA or a matter of any company going into administration refunds will take longer due to insolvency rules.

[jeanlyon]

27 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

I'd say realist, John, and we're now in the position I've been concerned about for some time, even though it was against the general opinion of these forums. I hope I'm wrong, I'd be delighted to be wrong, but essentially we look now to be entering the stage that China entered into some weeks back. Containment is accepted as only a temporary measure, and after that the spread is predicted to be up to 70% of the population. We're no different from China, but probably less well able to react as quickly, effectively and decisively once they realised the problem.

 

Wuhan yesterday, London tomorrow. Can't see any compelling reason why we should be any different.

There is a huge difference between China and the UK.  The two biggest areas of concern are China and South Korea.  What do they have in common?  Keeping exotic and odd animals in cages in a market in filthy conditions and eating them.  At least we don't do that.

 

But I certainly agree that it will get worse here before it gets better.

Edited March 2, 2020 by jeanlyon

[Harry Peterson]

3 minutes ago, jeanlyon said:

There is a huge difference between China and the UK.  The two biggest areas of concern are China and South Korea.  What do they have in common?  Keeping exotic and odd animals in cages in a market in filthy conditions and eating them.  At least we don't do that.

 

But I certainly agree that it will get worse here before it gets better.

I'm afraid this has nothing to do with animals now. The virus arose that way, but it's now just another human virus, and a highly infectious one at that. It doesn't respect countries or race.

 

Widespread transmission of coronavirus in the UK is now "highly likely", Public Health England has now said. Not my words - theirs.

[jeanlyon]

Yes I know, but it is brought from those countries.

[kalos]

6 minutes ago, jeanlyon said:

But I certainly agree that it will get worse here before it gets better.

Just reading on Sky News  ,Europe have upgraded the risk of coronavirus  from moderate to high.

 

 

[Son of Anarchy]

12 minutes ago, jeanlyon said:

Keeping exotic and odd animals in cages in a market in filthy conditions and eating them.  At least we don't do that.

You obviously haven't seen the customers in Southend Wetherspoons!

[Vampiress88]

1 hour ago, Adawn47 said:

That to me sounds like the  typical "treat 'em like mushrooms" response.

 

They are driving me nuts that’s for sure. Beating round the bush seems to spring to mind. 

 

I wrote

if you denied us boarding on your “medical team” say so will you fully refund us?

 

 

This is the response

back to the insurance provider that has already said that if the denied boarding we are not covered for that under insurance. The insurance is there if I am poorly. I don’t think the insurance will agree that having a cold is grounds for them to pay out

[Harry Peterson]

10 minutes ago, Vampiress88 said:

 

They are driving me nuts that’s for sure. Beating round the bush seems to spring to mind. 

 

I wrote

if you denied us boarding on your “medical team” say so will you fully refund us?

 

 

This is the response

back to the insurance provider that has already said that if the denied boarding we are not covered for that under insurance. The insurance is there if I am poorly. I don’t think the insurance will agree that having a cold is grounds for them to pay out

As a couple of us have pointed out, this is not the insurer's responsibility - it's P&O's responsibility.  And I don't just mean responsibility in a general, moral sense - it's a clear legal responsibility under the Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018.  Various posts above give further details.

 

P&O are still taking the line that the law doesn't apply to them.

[emam]

20 minutes ago, kalos said:

Just reading on Sky News  ,Europe have upgraded the risk of coronavirus  from moderate to high.

 

 

 

The Uk was upgraded from low to moderate yesterday. The next update is in just over and hour.

 

Maybe it's time to think about stocking up on our food.

[davecttr]

56 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

I'd say realist, John, and we're now in the position I've been concerned about for some time, even though it was against the general opinion of these forums. I hope I'm wrong, I'd be delighted to be wrong, but essentially we look now to be entering the stage that China entered into some weeks back. Containment is accepted as only a temporary measure, and after that the spread is predicted to be up to 70% of the population. We're no different from China, but probably less well able to react as quickly, effectively and decisively once they realised the problem.

 

Wuhan yesterday, London tomorrow. Can't see any compelling reason why we should be any different.

I think the 70% population spread was derived from the exercise the BBC ran back in 2018 which  initially simulated the spread of an unconstrained virus. After 3 months over 40 million of the population had been infected and over 800 thousand had died. The initial parameters of the very complicated calculations had infection and death rates within the average values expected. Then another simulation was run with constraint measures in place, hand washing etc etc. This slowed down the spread rate and resulted in final figures about 33% smaller IIRC. I have heard that the government may have incorporated the results into their epidemic response plans. 

 

We are still, just? in the containment phase, the next phase is where the chains of infection are too long to trace enough contacts to make a difference. Then it is the mitigation phase where all sorts of advise and restrictions are introduced.

[Tablelamp]

1 hour ago, terrierjohn said:

I have had a similar non committal reply saying that my initial claim should be on my insurer, assistance would be available at the port, whatever that means, but no mention that P&O would consider a refund.

Needless to say I have asked for further clarification.

I will also be pursuing with my insurer to see if they offer the same cover as AXA.

[Harry Peterson]

8 minutes ago, davecttr said:

I think the 70% population spread was derived from the exercise the BBC ran back in 2018 which  initially simulated the spread of an unconstrained virus. After 3 months over 40 million of the population had been infected and over 800 thousand had died. The initial parameters of the very complicated calculations had infection and death rates within the average values expected. Then another simulation was run with constraint measures in place, hand washing etc etc. This slowed down the spread rate and resulted in final figures about 33% smaller IIRC. I have heard that the government may have incorporated the results into their epidemic response plans. 

 

We are still, just? in the containment phase, the next phase is where the chains of infection are too long to trace enough contacts to make a difference. Then it is the mitigation phase where all sorts of advise and restrictions are introduced.

The funny thing about that BBC4 exercise (which I watched again recently) is that they used Haslemere in Surrey as the epicentre.  Oddly, and completely coincidentally, a case in Haslemere with no known links to foreign travel was reported very recently.  It spread like wildfire during the experiment, and the government must know that's now the likely outcome in the UK - as evidenced by today's further statements.

[jeanlyon]

Still confused here.  The medical staff at the port cannot test you for coronavirus.  It takes 72 hours.  So how do they make a decision>

[Vampiress88]

31 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

As a couple of us have pointed out, this is not the insurer's responsibility - it's P&O's responsibility.  And I don't just mean responsibility in a general, moral sense - it's a clear legal responsibility under the Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018.  Various posts above give further details.

 

P&O are still taking the line that the law doesn't apply to them.

 

This is the latest from p&o

 

 

 

 

I know others have said that we are covered under a consumer act but I want p&o to be straight with me. I don’t want to turn up and have a battle on my hands. 

 

This is might all be for nothing anyway as everything we probably be ok but there’s just that one niggly feeling that just in case it isn’t I want everything to be clear. 

 

You buy insurance not thinking you’ll need it but as a back up and security. That’s what I want from p&o a backup plan should be worst happen 

[Vampiress88]

13 minutes ago, jeanlyon said:

Still confused here.  The medical staff at the port cannot test you for coronavirus.  It takes 72 hours.  So how do they make a decision>

 

They aren’t testing us for coronavirus 

 

they are asking

symptoms of any illness

where you have recently travelled

who you have been in contact with

 

medical team will then meet you if anything has flagged up in the questionnaire to discuss further 

 

medical teams discretion if you board or denied

 

they have also made it clear to me that false responses may also face legal consequences 

[Adawn47]

P&O are being very VERY careful of what they put into writing. Their  carefully  worded, and I assume legal team approved, statements are repeated almost word for word. Some of us will be donning our CSI suits and cruising. Carnival Cruise Company will be putting on their tin hats and diving for cover.

[jeanlyon]

56 minutes ago, Vampiress88 said:

 

They aren’t testing us for coronavirus 

 

they are asking

symptoms of any illness

where you have recently travelled

who you have been in contact with

 

medical team will then meet you if anything has flagged up in the questionnaire to discuss further 

 

medical teams discretion if you board or denied

 

they have also made it clear to me that false responses may also face legal consequences 

yes agree - have read that.  So for me, I haven't travelled anywhere or been in contact with anybody and I would guess that if I don't have a fever I should be OK.  Anybody who has a cold, that would be obvious, stuffed nose which is not a symptom of the virus.  Do you think that maybe we are worrying about nothing.  Obviously if someone has travelled to those countries and has a fever that would be different.

[ovccruiser]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think this whole issue is being blown out of all proportion? After all, it is not like the plague or the influenza virus during and after WW1. Latest is that the virus has so far killed 3000, still a very long way short of influenza, 2009 estimated at 61000+ and yet we all went on our cruises and holidays without a care.

[davecttr]

Apparently the problem with this new virus is it is new and so even the experts are unsure about what might happen next. Also, it appears people can be infected and become contagious without even realising they have the disease. This is a new and I would say a worrying twist in the story. 

 

How do you know you have not been infected. the first case near me was reported today, 8 miles away and I cannot say categorically that that person was not sitting next to me in Costa last Saturday. I will probably know in about a fortnight, or maybe not.

 

I have until Friday week to decide on cancelling my June cruise to Norway. It is almost certain I will cancel but if the cruise is cancelled I will also get a refund of my deposit.

 

I am in the increased risk group because of age and medical conditions and it seems prudent to me not to put myself at unnecessary risk. Also stress weakens your immune system so I really don't want to be arguing with insurance companies and cruise lines.

[janny444]

5 minutes ago, ovccruiser said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else think this whole issue is being blown out of all proportion? After all, it is not like the plague or the influenza virus during and after WW1. Latest is that the virus has so far killed 3000, still a very long way short of influenza, 2009 estimated at 61000+ and yet we all went on our cruises and holidays without a care.

Possibly....but social media and the media is a two-edged sword....it tells you everything that you think you may want to hear and tells you things that you certainly don't want to hear....with all this " chatter" the actual truth sometimes gets drowned out

[Harry Peterson]

13 minutes ago, ovccruiser said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else think this whole issue is being blown out of all proportion? After all, it is not like the plague or the influenza virus during and after WW1. Latest is that the virus has so far killed 3000, still a very long way short of influenza, 2009 estimated at 61000+ and yet we all went on our cruises and holidays without a care.

You've obviously not been keeping abreast of current events then.  It's potentially very much like the 1918 outbreak, it's still in its very early stages, with a very high infection rate and no immunity (unlike flu where large numbers have had vaccinations).

 

Do you really think the World Health Organisation would be blowing it out of proportion?  Or the British government, now talking about widespread transmission in the UK as highly likely.  If that happens, and the lower estimate of around 50% of people infected proves correct, that's 30,000,000 people, and if the death rate is only 1% that's 300,000 additional deaths in the UK alone - hardly trivial.

[davecttr]

8 minutes ago, ovccruiser said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else think this whole issue is being blown out of all proportion? After all, it is not like the plague or the influenza virus during and after WW1. Latest is that the virus has so far killed 3000, still a very long way short of influenza, 2009 estimated at 61000+ and yet we all went on our cruises and holidays without a care.

No, governments are reacting they way they are because they don't know what is going to happen next. This virus is new to humans  so anything could happen. The flu pandemic of 1918/19 became world wide in an age where you travelled by ship or train. Our international travel today is overwhelming by air in a matter of hours not weeks. Apparently that 'spanish' flu virus ( it originated in the USA) mutated into a much deadlier form in late 1918 that was killing even young healthy adults in a matter of days.

 

Prepare for the worst and if it happens at least you have tried to mitigate the effects.