Yikes! Over age 70 passengers need doctor’s note (Merged threads)

[Flatbush Flyer]

1 hour ago, Denny01 said:

You seem to forget I pointed out that Silverseas (luxury) Line required the Fit to Sale form and you listed two lines you think didn’t and keep insisting ‘pretty much every...’ luxury line doesn’t require that form. When are you going to drop that false assumption just because You don’t see it referenced as a requirement on luxury lines websites but actual customers tell you they require them. 
 

no one buys into your conspiracy that standard lines are trying to drive us geezers to luxury lines. 
 

den

OK - let's change that to SOME premium/luxury lines since things are changing frequently. Even Cruise Critic's list of current lines' policies often points to other websites which may or may not have current info.

 

To the best of my knowledge (from a quick search just now), SOME premium/luxury lines including Regent, Oceania and Crystal still do not require an MD note for future cruises.

And, if that remains true when the "no sail" order finally expires, I fully expect that SOME other premium/luxury lines will follow suit. 

 

It would be interesting to know how many seniors intend to "jump ship" from lines that have/keep the MD note requirement. Perhaps CC could post a survey.

[Ride-The-Waves]

There is a reasonable expectation that being healthy enough to cruise is a pre-requisite for embarking on any ship.  Lots of reasons to include safety, health and physical acuity.  Thirty years in the US Navy provides a good understanding that there are dangers at sea not experienced on land.

 

Hurtigruten, not a member of CLIA, requires a health certificate for all expedition passengers signed by a physician.  The certification provides the ship's doctor an expectation of the challenges some of the passengers may have on embarkation.  Its not age specific.  The ship's doctor retains a go/no go decision for the passenger.  Important in that expeditions, especially in places like Antarctica, can be out of reach of ashore medical facilities for 10 days or more.  Cruise ships, even the mega boats, are not medical centers and cannot treat serious accidents or illnesses.  They are designed to stabilize a patient and move him/her ashore at earliest opportunity.

 

I think this is a good policy even if born out of a pandemic.  Cruise ships are private, not public/government,  They can and should set standards for passengers, to include health and especially mobility standards.  My wife and I are both north of 75 and in good health, and enjoy sailing to visit new and interesting places.  

 

What is needed is a well designed form a physician's medical staff can complete from a patient's medical history and a physician can then endorse.  Should not be age specific.  Should provide a quick overview of whether a person is "cruise worthy," to include such things as mobility (climb into a life boat in emergency), controlled ailments with medications (listed), and mental acuity.  It should be sent to the ship's doctor or cruise line medical staff for acknowledgement that the prospective passenger's ailments are appropriately covered.  I would estimate that at least en percent of all cruisers are physically unable to respond appropriately to an emergency at sea, to include getting into a lifeboat.  That puts other at terrible risk.

 

Safer for all involved from the passenger him/herself, to fellow passengers, to crew.

[hcat]

How much would a doctor charge for such a full exam?  Would health ins  cover the costs? Should it include a cardio clearance, full bloodwork..etc.? 

 

The scary info out there now ( possibky true or not) is that some conditions, even if well controlled are risk factors to get Covid and possibly  predictive of a worse outcome if you contract it...how can a dr ( or cruiser)  take a chance with that?

[Life Buoy]

On 4/11/2020 at 7:05 PM, Ride-The-Waves said:

Lots of "head in the sand" comments.  This is a CLIA recommendation, not specific to a cruise line.  It is designed more to protect the cruiser.  And, no, you don't know better than the cruise line which has responsibility for everyone on board.  They are a private convenience and can set rules as they see best for everyone embarked.  Again, a CLIA recommendation to its members.

No, it doesn't protect the cruiser since it's not notarized, the doctor can sign in advance of the cruise, there is no screening before you embark, it doesn't cover all who board and anyone can forge a signature. It is solely for the protection of the cruise line! They have a piece of paper that you handed in stating that a doctor thought you fit to travel. That would be their defense.

[TeeRick]

This topic really is a spinning wheel to nowhere IMO.  Now multiple threads on it.  Why get so stressed about the 70+ doctor's note introduced as a strategy when Celebrity thought it could still sail without shutting operations?  Not long ago but a whole different world then. That was the reality of the situation then.  When cruising returns - meaning COVID-19 is under control - there will be no need for a doctor's note.  Instead there might be a need for an antibody test certificate for all ages until (if) a vaccine is developed and becomes widely available.   That is more reality now.

[soccermommy]

DH and I have are part of this age group. We are both turning 71 this year, in good health even though DH does take blood pressure medication. Do I think this is age discrimination? No. Age discrimination, imo, is if we couldn’t sail at all simply because of our ages. 
I’m more annoyed than anything else. I to have to get a doctor’s note (like we were going on a school trip) that says we’re are healthy...which really only applies to the time the note was issued. Besides, I don’t like to consider myself elderly, unless there is some discount involved! I do feel bad for people who won’t be allowed to board due to some underlying condition. What about the people under 70 with the same conditions? But, much as I hate to admit it, the overwhelming danger of getting Covid-19 applies to my age group. 
We are still scheduled to sail on the Reflection in May. We haven’t canceled,  but we think it’s probable Celebrity will. Would I go on the cruise if it still sails? I don’t know...it depends on a lot of things improving. And of course, there is the question of Americans actually being allowed to enter the EU or UK if things get worse over here.
 

[alwaysonaship]

On 4/12/2020 at 7:22 PM, ping1 said:

I am over 70 years old. My doctor will not sign the form because he feels as though the fact that I'm missing a leg will impede my ability to traverse across the deck if the ship is pitching. He is afraid that I might tumble and receive a skull fracture. We booked with a NRD and final payment is due in a few months. My understanding is that if I cancel the cruise rather than the cruise line canceling I will receive a FCC. I of course would prefer to get a full refund since it is highly unlikely that I will grow a new leg by the end of 2021. Do I have any options? I suppose I could see if I lose my other leg and then sue Celebrity. But my chances of prevailing in court is at best remote since I wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

We have a New Zealand Cruise JAN 2021 booked and are over 70. My question is how can Celebrity legally change the terms of the contract? When we booked we knew the terms of the non-refundable deposit. If they change it, Requiring the doctor’s letter, then IMHO they have violated it and it should legally be 100% refundable. 

[Fouremco]

28 minutes ago, alwaysonaship said:

We have a New Zealand Cruise JAN 2021 booked and are over 70. My question is how can Celebrity legally change the terms of the contract? When we booked we knew the terms of the non-refundable deposit. If they change it, Requiring the doctor’s letter, then IMHO they have violated it and it should legally be 100% refundable. 

I'm no lawyer, but I wonder if 12(a) of the cruise contract provides the necessary wording to allow Celebrity to require a doctor's certificate when deemed necessary:

 

12. FITNESS TO TRAVEL; DENIAL OF BOARDING; MINORS:

a. Passenger warrants that he and those traveling with him are fit for travel and that such travel will not endanger themselves or others.

 

You have agreed to warrant that you are fit for travel, and Celebrity is now asking you to provide confirmation by means of a doctor's certificate. Like so many other aspects of the contract, it is written totally in Celebrity's favour.

 

[Ride-The-Waves]

Some here appear to act like Celebrity and the cruise line industry owe them.  Alert:  they don't.  If you don't want to live by the rules - don't cruise.  They are big businesses not your BFFs.  It's that simple!

[alwaysonaship]

1 hour ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Some here appear to act like Celebrity and the cruise line industry owe them.  Alert:  they don't.  If you don't want to live by the rules - don't cruise.  They are big businesses not your BFFs.  It's that simple!

You are missing my point. When they change  the “rules” the contract starts all over again. For example I sign an agreement to sell you my house for $500,000. You agree, and I agree. We have a contract. Then a few weeks before closing I decide to change the terms to $600,000. I have broken the contract and that is what Celebrity did. The contract between us a null and void 

[alwaysonaship]

2 hours ago, Fouremco said:

I'm no lawyer, but I wonder if 12(a) of the cruise contract provides the necessary wording to allow Celebrity to require a doctor's certificate when deemed necessary:

 

12. FITNESS TO TRAVEL; DENIAL OF BOARDING; MINORS:

a. Passenger warrants that he and those traveling with him are fit for travel and that such travel will not endanger themselves or others.

 

You have agreed to warrant that you are fit for travel, and Celebrity is now asking you to provide confirmation by means of a doctor's certificate. Like so many other aspects of the contract, it is written totally in Celebrity's favour.

 

You can be fit to travel and have health issues. It is basically are they well controlled? I see lots of people who are way under 70 riding around in their scooters who basically are ill due to extreme weight. They can cruise. No letter needed. 

[Fouremco]

3 minutes ago, alwaysonaship said:

You can be fit to travel and have health issues. It is basically are they well controlled? I see lots of people who are way under 70 riding around in their scooters who basically are ill due to extreme weight. They can cruise. No letter needed. 

I don't disagree with you, and I don't like the 70+ requirement any more than you do. I've had open heart surgery, and my cardiologist says that while I'm perfectly fit to cruise, he can't sign a form certifying that I don't have an underlying medical condition. Yes, there are no doubt other passengers far less fit to travel than you or me who are under 70 and won't need a note, all of which seems quite unfair. However, as I said in my previous post, I'm not sure that the requirement constitutes a breach of contract.

 

On the positive side, this is meant to be a temporary measure in the fight against COVID-19. As I have no intention of sailing while the threat of the virus is still present, the requirement for the letter is really irrelevant. 

[1SGCruiser]

1 minute ago, Fouremco said:

I'm not sure that the requirement constitutes a breach of contract.

 

The fact that the circumstances changed after signing up for and paying some money toward a cruise doesn't necessarily constitute a breach of contract -e ven though it's definitely a change of the contract terms.  But, if Celebrity changed its fitness-to-sail restrictions - it doesn't really matter why (i.e., they can't sail at all - unlike just a change of ports, etc) after signing up for a cruise AND then does not offer a full refund OR just offers FCC which is likely useless due to the new restrictions, that (IMHO) would then constitute breach of contract.  I'm not a lawyer so I could be completely wrong. 

 

 

[carnivalman]

On 4/15/2020 at 1:17 PM, alwaysonaship said:

You are missing my point. When they change  the “rules” the contract starts all over again. For example I sign an agreement to sell you my house for $500,000. You agree, and I agree. We have a contract. Then a few weeks before closing I decide to change the terms to $600,000. I have broken the contract and that is what Celebrity did. The contract between us a null and void 

While I'm not  lawyer, if you have a ratified contract on your house and either party does not fulfill the terms of the contract, the other can sue for "Specific Performance".  The Seller cannot void the contract because someone came along who offered more money for the house.  Cruise ships contracts are much more complicated with many caveats.

[Welland]

Question re Medical form....what are the actual conditions listed?  

Edited April 18, 2020 by Welland
Sorry....just found the medical form on the Celebrity website so no need for any to respond.

[davekathy]

7 minutes ago, Welland said:

Question re Medical form....what are the actual conditions listed?  

...https://www.celebritycruises.com/content/dam/celebrity/pdf/physician-fit-to-sail-form.pdf

[Fouremco]

The form refers to "any chronic illness" and then provides a number of examples, not a definitive list.

[Margarita Jane]

I guess a person 65 to 69 with heart conditions and diabetes is less likely to die from Covid-19 than a person 70? 

[DaveSJ711]

32 minutes ago, Margarita Jane said:

I guess a person 65 to 69 with heart conditions and diabetes is less likely to die from Covid-19 than a person 70? 

 

All other things being equal, persons who are older than 70 are more likely to die from COVID-19 than persons under that age.  The presence of comorbidities further increases that risk.

 

Now of course, all other things are never equal.  Some young people die from COVID-19; some older people are in perfect health; and people of all ages die from COVID-19 without any comorbidities.  Etc. etc.

 

But, a line has to be drawn somewhere.  I view Celebrity's form as a conservative attempt to draw that line.  The CDC says that those at high risk for severe illness from COVID-19 are people 65 and older, not 70 and older -- but Celebrity's form only applies to the latter age category.  And the CDC says that people of any age who suffer from serious medical conditions are at risk from COVID-19 -- but the certification requirement in Celebrity's form only applies to people who suffer from these conditions AND who are 70 and older.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/people-at-higher-risk.html

[mauimary]

1 hour ago, Margarita Jane said:

I guess a person 65 to 69 with heart conditions and diabetes is less likely to die from Covid-19 than a person 70? 

I guess that’s their problem if they want to put their lives on the line and take the risk.  
Myself I am in this category(65-69) with controlled asthma and there is no vacation that is worth the risk.   Don’t get me wrong we are avid cruisers and just canceled a very well planned European Cruise and we are very disappointed. The Cruise May still be going but we sadly are not.  
Many of us are very disappointed and saddened as this was something none of us saw coming. We will cruise again but not this year. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by mauimary

[Flatbush Flyer]

44 minutes ago, DaveSJ711 said:

But, a line has to be drawn somewhere.  I view Celebrity's form as a conservative attempt to draw that line.

No line has to be drawn. Just apply it to everyone (as useless as it is).

And we all know that Celebrity didn't pick the CDC 65 figure because that would mean losing even more of their core business.

 

As aforementioned on this thread, the best cruise embarkation screening device currently available is the quick diagnostic virus testing now being used by Emirates Airlines and/or whatever quick antibody tests may (soon?) be available.  But apparently, it's much easier/cheaper to put the workload on the paying customers while they say "we tried our best."

[Margarita Jane]

Just my opinion, but I think when X sends it’s first ships out, they will be sanitized and clean to the hilt. They will not be able to risk any outbreak of any kind after this no sail order. 
 

 

[mauimary]

Unfortunately not even the cleanest most sanitized ship will prevent Covid from spreading if someone brings it on board with them. It is spread by coughing and/or sneezing.   There is too much of it worldwide.  Until there is a vaccine it will still be around.  As you know a person could test negative today but positive a few days later.  Many of us are keeping a close eye on this. It will be interesting to see what transpires as things begin to open up. Other countries as well.   We do not even want to be on an airplane anytime soon. 

  I agree clean ships they will be until crew and passengers start coming back on board. I also agree right now the line has to be drawn on everyone.  From the reports it is less in children but they are little carriers so are younger adults. None of us are safe but we can lessen our chances. 

[DaveSJ711]

55 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

And we all know that Celebrity didn't pick the CDC 65 figure because that would mean losing even more of their core business.

 

How do we "all know"?  I don't.  And even if your premise is correct, wouldn't it follow that an across-the-board certification requirement, applicable to everybody without regard to COVID-19 risk factors, would cause Celebrity to lose even more business?  Why is that outcome in Celebrity's best interest?

 

Celebrity developed a limited certification requirement that applies to the cohort with the highest risk of severe illness from COVID-19 (age 70+ with comorbidities).  And the physician attestation for age 70+ provides a third-party assurance that an older person is fit to sail -- an assurance that complements Celebrity's existing right to refuse carriage to anybody if that person is "physically or mentally unfit to travel" (Paragraph 13 of Celebrity's Terms and Conditions).  Both are reasonable requirements given the acute risks that COVID-19 poses in a confined ship environment. 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by DaveSJ711

[PROCRUISE]

I've enjoyed reading all the opinions and insights. In actuality, I guess none of us, who are mature in years, will know whether we can cruise again or not until everything is clearly defined.

 

I'm 73yrs old, do CrossFit Masters classes three days a week and walk an additional 2 miles, 5 days a week. However, I take a doctor prescribed statin. My very good friend who wants to travel more is 87yrs old. Has a personal trainer and swims 30 laps twice a week. Has a hip replacement and chronic back pain that is medicated. Could either of us die on a cruise. Of course.

Will we be allowed to board our December cruise, if it sails? Will our physicians be willing to sign off as clearly a safe bet that we won't get sick or have a medical emergency while onboard?

 

Made it through 34 previous cruises. Just have to wait and see and go with the flow.

Edited April 18, 2020 by PROCRUISE