Yikes! Over age 70 passengers need doctor’s note (Merged threads)

[Ride-The-Waves]

Lots of "head in the sand" comments.  This is a CLIA recommendation, not specific to a cruise line.  It is designed more to protect the cruiser.  And, no, you don't know better than the cruise line which has responsibility for everyone on board.  They are a private convenience and can set rules as they see best for everyone embarked.  Again, a CLIA recommendation to its members.

[trivia addict]

I “don’t know better than the cruise line” what’s best for me? Do they have a special line in the universe? Do they know who will get sick and when? 
Of course, I know whats best for me. I will use my own intellect and research when determining what’s best for me. Not using a corporate CEO to determine “ what’s best for me”

[actdir]

6 hours ago, Nymich said:

No way this is true.  No way

One death on just about every cruise would not surprise me.  As a group leader (I am not a travel agent) we lost one of our group on the final night of the cruise.  I knew everyone in the group very well and one of the hardest days of my life was when I had to go tell them.  The medical team on the ship and the support from the Celebrity officers was above and beyond what I could have ever imagined for this very emotional time.  It did not seem that this was an occasional occurrence.  Just my opinion. 

[Nymich]

17 minutes ago, actdir said:

One death on just about every cruise would not surprise me.  As a group leader (I am not a travel agent) we lost one of our group on the final night of the cruise.  I knew everyone in the group very well and one of the hardest days of my life was when I had to go tell them.  The medical team on the ship and the support from the Celebrity officers was above and beyond what I could have ever imagined for this very emotional time.  It did not seem that this was an occasional occurrence.  Just my opinion. 

No way there is almost one death per EVERY cruise.  Facts, documents to support such a bizarre claim?  A quick search shows CC article saying 3 per week on ALL cruises.  Another article says 3 in a month.  This is on all cruises combined.  No way is it almost 1 every single cruise of every company.

JMO

Edited April 12, 2020 by Nymich

[realnice46]

Another problem with this policy we generally leave a week or two before cruise to visit other areas. I would imagine there are a lot of others out there that also extend their trips. I understand the concern of the cruise line, but what about those who are under 70 with underlying conditions. I think in that case policy should apply to all passengers.

[4774Papa]

On 4/10/2020 at 11:49 AM, Flatbush Flyer said:

What it amounts to is "age discrimination." 

FWIW, this age/health note requirement was recently introduced across several mass market lines in the US. At the same time, I am unaware of any premium/luxury line that has also added the same thing which, of course, would be industrial suicide given the passenger demographics.

As for your specific question, have you actually examined your ticket contract (the often expanded version of your T&Cs). It should say what happens if you are denied boarding. Also, if your T&Cs say the cruise line can change "whatever," you may find yourself in a legal whizzing match, that could require more of your time, energy and other resources than is the value of your cruise.

Hopefully, you can still get out of this contract now with minimum cost to you. If so, then you can send a message with your future bookings by avoiding any cruise line that tries thus bogus BS.

People are so quick to call anything discrimination.

On this count, you are correct, it is age discrimination, but it is designed to protect those Seniors with underlying health problems.  It is a good thing, in my opinion. I am 72 and will seek out my doctor's approval, regardless if the cruise line requires documentation that I am healthy to cruise.

[Chriskoo]

I don’t get how anyone could consider this policy discrimination. I once cruised when I was pregnant, and the same policy applied to me - I was required to present a doctor’s note saying I was fit to travel. Does that mean the cruise line was discriminating against pregnant women?! No way. They are just protecting themselves from liability should something happen to a vulnerable group of people. 

[Chriskoo]

All that said, if that 70+ doctor’s note policy is new, those who booked before the policy and can’t/won’t comply should be given the option to cancel without penalty.

 

I knew about the pregnancy doctor’s note policy when I booked so maybe that’s why I wasn’t salty about it.

[actdir]

13 hours ago, Nymich said:

No way there is almost one death per EVERY cruise.  Facts, documents to support such a bizarre claim?  A quick search shows CC article saying 3 per week on ALL cruises.  Another article says 3 in a month.  This is on all cruises combined.  No way is it almost 1 every single cruise of every company.

JMO

I don't believe it occurs on every sailing, but I think it is more than 3 in one month throughout all of the lines/ships.  Maybe the team on board was very well trained to handle this situation, but it didn't seem like it was a once a year occurrence.  It would be interesting to know how this is reported and if it is made public.  Again, JMO.

 

[riredsox]

Shouldn’t those that smoke have to have a doctors note?  There at risk for a heart attack or stroke.  Just curious.  What happens when someone with a ‘note to cruise’ dies anyways?  Sue the doctor?  I think the note situation is not going to stick.  If it does there will be some big ships for sale. 

[gold1953]

3 hours ago, actdir said:

I don't believe it occurs on every sailing, but I think it is more than 3 in one month throughout all of the lines/ships.  Maybe the team on board was very well trained to handle this situation, but it didn't seem like it was a once a year occurrence.  It would be interesting to know how this is reported and if it is made public.  Again, JMO.

 

It is much for than that . I saw a body being taken to the roped off elevator on the Reflection. I mentioned to a chef we were friendly with. His reply was " oh you saw that. We average 2 per cruise but usually towards the end of a voyage . this one was early"

[travelordie]

Last month the Canadian government issued a level 3 travel advisory against all nonessential travel.  Within 24 hours of the advisory being issued, I heard from my travel medical insurer that my insurance would not be valid until the advisory is lifted.  This means for us, no travel abroad whether or not we receive a physician's letter.  I'm not sure if this is true in the US as well but I hope that those in the US contact their travel medical insurer before cruising.

 

My physician won't sign the letter nor do I blame him.  He is concerned about potential legal issues.

 

All CLIA cruise lines now require a letter for those 70 or older. Almost all major cruise lines are CLIA members.  To the best of my knowledge, the one exception is Viking.  Viking is a privately held (does not trade on the stock market like Carnival) European cruise line and does not require a physician's letter.  Once the pandemic is over, I suspect that there will be nothing but Viking cruises in our future.

[DaveSJ711]

On 3/29/2020 at 3:52 PM, markeb said:

 

Not surprising. The 20-29 group difference is almost certainly not statistically significant. In fact, none of the differences may be significant.

 

For better or worse, other than the youngest group, the cases are normalizing across the population.

 

The cases may be normalizing across the population, but the deaths aren't.  As of April 7, my state (Washington) had reported 441 deaths from Covid.  92% of the fatalities were aged 60 and older.

[Barcelona17]

8 minutes ago, DaveSJ711 said:

 

The cases may be normalizing across the population, but the deaths aren't.  As of April 7, my state (Washington) had reported 441 deaths from Covid.  92% of the fatalities were aged 60 and older.

 

And what percentage of those were nursing home residents. I'm all for requiring nursing home residents to have a doctor's note. In fact, it may be standard procedure for many nursing homes when allowing residents to travel anywhere by any means. But that is a far cry from requiring healthy 70 years old to obtain a note.

 

dcl

[cruisemom42]

12 minutes ago, DaveSJ711 said:

 

The cases may be normalizing across the population, but the deaths aren't.  As of April 7, my state (Washington) had reported 441 deaths from Covid.  92% of the fatalities were aged 60 and older.

 

Exactly. The point isn't that the elderly contract it at a higher rate, it's that they tend to die from it (or have severe disease requiring intensive care) at a much higher rate.

 

Also, regarding infection rates by age group: does it account for the fact that those in higher age groups (65+) by and large are not working and thus are not as likely to be exposed?

 

[DaveSJ711]

15 minutes ago, Barcelona17 said:

 

And what percentage of those were nursing home residents. I'm all for requiring nursing home residents to have a doctor's note. In fact, it may be standard procedure for many nursing homes when allowing residents to travel anywhere by any means. But that is a far cry from requiring healthy 70 years old to obtain a note.

 

dcl

 

Washington reported 221 Covid deaths in long-term care facilities as of April 10.  Assuming that the vast majority of facility residents are over 60, the data suggest that approximately 50% of total Covid fatalities occurred in that cohort.

 

Remember, though, that a single Washington care facility (Life Care of Kirkland) was tied to more than 35 deaths from Covid.  That outbreak occurred right when the pandemic began (and before people started to take protective measures seriously).  So if we back out the Life Care numbers and look at more recent data, the Covid fatalities among age 60+ facility residents are less than 50% of the total. 

 

Point of trivia:  I'll bet that I'm the only person on Cruise Critic who's been to both Wuhan, China (where the outbreak began) and Life Care of Kirkland.  I studied Chinese at Wuhan University for a month in 1983.  Then, in 2012, my sister spent a week in rehab at Life Care, and I visited her every day.

[az_tchr]

39 minutes ago, Barcelona17 said:

 

And what percentage of those were nursing home residents. I'm all for requiring nursing home residents to have a doctor's note. In fact, it may be standard procedure for many nursing homes when allowing residents to travel anywhere by any means. But that is a far cry from requiring healthy 70 years old to obtain a note.

 

dcl

Since according to the CDC some 65% of people over 65 have at least one underlying condition - high blood pressure, obesity, heart disease, diabetes. Do you think cruise lines will lose half their passengers?  

The note was only an attempt to remain in cruise mode.  It was announced as temporary.

With colleges and universities in the US discussing staying online for the fall - Boston College and Arizona are two with online discussion - because of the likelihood of recurring covid19; do you really think we will have football games or cruising anytime soon.

Activities that involve large groups travelling to a single destination will be the last to happen.  Rural travel will be the first.  My local zipcode of some 15K people as of today has 3 cases.  In the city there are 15 times more.

[PROCRUISE]

Staring cruising when I was 56 yrs old in 2002. Now it's 2002 and somehow I'm 73 yrs old. My doctor, during my last physical exam in January, rated my health as "very good." Got my January X cruise in in January, the one in March was cancelled, the night before! Took the FCC and rebooked for February 2021 and was already booked for March 2021 all on Celebrity.

So, now if I'm turned down for boarding because my only Rx is a statin, I'll just review the thousands of pictures I have from my previous 34 cruises and be glad I got to go all over the world via cruise ships. I'll just be patient and wait and see.

[travelordie]

Italy just published figures showing death rates versus age.  To the best of my knowledge, these are not confounded by large populations of seniors confined to old age homes.

 

[ping1]

I am over 70 years old. My doctor will not sign the form because he feels as though the fact that I'm missing a leg will impede my ability to traverse across the deck if the ship is pitching. He is afraid that I might tumble and receive a skull fracture. We booked with a NRD and final payment is due in a few months. My understanding is that if I cancel the cruise rather than the cruise line canceling I will receive a FCC. I of course would prefer to get a full refund since it is highly unlikely that I will grow a new leg by the end of 2021. Do I have any options? I suppose I could see if I lose my other leg and then sue Celebrity. But my chances of prevailing in court is at best remote since I wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

[BlueRiband]

On 4/12/2020 at 9:29 AM, Chriskoo said:

I don’t get how anyone could consider this policy discrimination. I once cruised when I was pregnant, and the same policy applied to me - I was required to present a doctor’s note saying I was fit to travel. Does that mean the cruise line was discriminating against pregnant women?! No way. They are just protecting themselves from liability should something happen to a vulnerable group of people. 

I see your point but pregnancy is not a "premanent" condition, turning 70 is. 

 

CLIA's "over 70" rule (clearly CYA on their part) does present a huge financial risk for the passenger.  Traditionally it's the passenger's responsibility to have all required boarding documents and if anything is lacking they have no recompense if denied boarding.  Without a signed medical clearance to sail they are out 100% of the fare.  Travel insurance would become astronomically expensive because the risk of cancellation or denial of boarding would be so high.  Even if the passenger wanted to comply so many things can go wrong: no appointments available within the required window, doctor cancels appointment, doctor doesn't think cruising is generally a good idea, doctor doesn't want a lawsuit if the passenger does get sick etc.  And forget about taking advantage of any last minute bargain deals. 

 

Whether CLIA can make this rule stick will depend on whether or not those over 70 will comply.  If the vast number decide that compliance is too much of a hassle then the industry loses a huge segment of their market.

 

 

[Flatbush Flyer]

1 hour ago, BlueRiband said:

I see your point but pregnancy is not a "premanent" condition, turning 70 is. 

 

CLIA's "over 70" rule (clearly CYA on their part) does present a huge financial risk for the passenger.  Traditionally it's the passenger's responsibility to have all required boarding documents and if anything is lacking they have no recompense if denied boarding.  Without a signed medical clearance to sail they are out 100% of the fare.  Travel insurance would become astronomically expensive because the risk of cancellation or denial of boarding would be so high.  Even if the passenger wanted to comply so many things can go wrong: no appointments available within the required window, doctor cancels appointment, doctor doesn't think cruising is generally a good idea, doctor doesn't want a lawsuit if the passenger does get sick etc.  And forget about taking advantage of any last minute bargain deals. 

 

Whether CLIA can make this rule stick will depend on whether or not those over 70 will comply.  If the vast number decide that compliance is too much of a hassle then the industry loses a huge segment of their market.

 

 

As previously mentioned, the 70+ MD note is a CLIA recommendation to its member cruise lines. Pretty much every premium/luxury line is not using it.

The more important "rules" are those of the US Federal Government (e.g., CDC, USCG, et al.) requiring a Prevention/Treatment Plan once the ship has embarked and a Disposition Plan once the ship has disembarked. There is zero mention anywhere about requiring useless MD notes (that would guarantee nothing).

[Covepointcruiser]

You may want to inform Seabourn(considered a luxury line) that they no longer need to follow the CLIA over 70 guidelines.    We have a cruise booked for late October and a fit to sale letter is required.   Why would a luxury line not implement this requirement?

Guess if you are chartering a yacht (real luxury!) it may not be required.

[Flatbush Flyer]

2 minutes ago, Covepointcruiser said:

You may want to inform Seabourn(considered a luxury line) that they no longer need to follow the CLIA over 70 guidelines.    We have a cruise booked for late October and a fit to sale letter is required.   Why would a luxury line not implement this requirement?

Guess if you are chartering a yacht (real luxury!) it may not be required.

As I said previously: "pretty much every..."

Seabourn may be the current exception. Let's see how long that works.

As aforementioned, such a requirement will be industrial suicide for any line catering primarily to seniors.

[Denny01]

4 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

As I said previously: "pretty much every..."

Seabourn may be the current exception. Let's see how long that works.

As aforementioned, such a requirement will be industrial suicide for any line catering primarily to seniors.

You seem to forget I pointed out that Silverseas (luxury) Line required the Fit to Sale form and you listed two lines you think didn’t and keep insisting ‘pretty much every...’ luxury line doesn’t require that form. When are you going to drop that false assumption just because You don’t see it referenced as a requirement on luxury lines websites but actual customers tell you they require them. 
 

no one buys into your conspiracy that standard lines are trying to drive us geezers to luxury lines. 
 

den