Zaandam and Rotterdam Situation (merged topics starting March 22, 2020)

[LMaxwell]

2 minutes ago, capriccio said:

do you have a citation for that?  Thanks.

 

It's not "Florida" it's United States.  And it does not say passengers, it references crew.  It is a Public Memo 

 

https://homeport.uscg.mil/Lists/Content/Attachments/62863/MSIB 20-001 COVID-19 Cruiseship Medical Capabilities_Signed.29Mar20.pdf

[sail2day]

Another article on the new Coast Guard protocol on sick crew and passengers.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/coast-guard-tells-cruises-to-prepare-to-care-for-sick-people-for-indefinite-period/ar-BB11ZoEY?ocid=spartandhp

 

[LMaxwell]

Carnival Corp has offered to use its ships as hospital ships for non-covid patients; if the people are not stick on Rotterdam isn't it practical to continue to use that ship as floating quarantine vessel until sufficient time has passed to disembark?  Wouldn't that be the spirit of use offered by Carnival? Not speaking of Zaandam, just Rotterdam 

[capriccio]

18 minutes ago, Gracie115 said:

 

It's not the "Florida Coast Guard" there is no such thing, it is US Coast Guard.

The Coast Guard 7th District (who issued the order) goes as far north as South Carolina and includes Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands.  I couldn’t tell if the entire district is included in the order.

[arabrab]

1 minute ago, LMaxwell said:

Carnival Corp has offered to use its ships as hospital ships for non-covid patients; if the people are not stick on Rotterdam isn't it practical to continue to use that ship as floating quarantine vessel until sufficient time has passed to disembark?  Wouldn't that be the spirit of use offered by Carnival? Not speaking of Zaandam, just Rotterdam 

HAL's rep said yesterday that "a couple" people on Rotterdam had flu-type symptoms. (The link is back a bunch of pages.)

Edited April 1, 2020 by arabrab

[LMaxwell]

2 minutes ago, arabrab said:

HAL's rep said yesterday that "a couple" people on Rotterdam had flu-type symptoms. (The link is back a bunch of pages.)

Thanks, I was not aware.  Trying to keep things fact based here and offer solutions. 

[YYC F/A]

On 3/30/2020 at 9:49 PM, beach spring said:

Has there been any discussion of consideration of housing, for the purpose of quarantine, these passengers on the empty HAL ships just sitting at anchor offshore?  Yes, they will need crews and medical personnel, supplies, etc. but the whole operation could be kept in-house, so to speak.  No need to bring anyone ashore until either past their quarantine time or beyond the level of care that can be provided on a ship.  If crew members have been used to take meals to staterooms, why not use crew to ferry whatever or whoever is needed to these ships?  Use maybe more than one idle ship in order to spread out the numbers, social distancing.

 

Ships are far from ideal environments to mitigate infections. That's been demonstrated with Diamond Princess that pretty much did some variant of what you propose, and the ship was an astounding incubator of the virus. Additionally, ships limited numbers of nurses and doctors (I believe 8 and 6 respectively on Z now after transfer from R) and the ship's onboard medical center are not built to house a 2+ week coronavirus treatment hospital.

 

[LHT28]

4 minutes ago, Tampa Girl said:

I think that NCL may be the only U.S. flagged line. 

Only 1 US flagged ship = Pride of America

[zonacruiser25]

I would have to believe that CCL and authorities are formulating some sort of plan for these 2 ships.  The one fact I would stand by is that 50% will approve and 50% will be appalled no matter what the plan is!  We are building emergency rooms in days right now.  It is a matter of resources and commitment to get the job done.  We can speculate here but I will find it more interesting to see how this plays out.  I think the Oakland model worked since you do not hear much about it now.  There have been lessons and I hope that the people that put a plan in place will have studied and learned from these lessons.  Praying for those aboard both ships for their safe passage home.

 

[Cindy]

This is all so heartbreaking. I simply cannot imagine what it would feel like to be a passenger on either ship right now — not knowing when my country would allow me to come home, not welcome anywhere, not knowing if I would stay healthy, or need life-saving medical treatment not available on the ship.

 

My husband and I love cruising. It’s been our vacation of choice for 20 years. I find myself seriously reconsidering my bookings and wondering whether or not I want to continue.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Cindy

[nho9504]

Here is the daily update of Port Everglades

 

https://www.porteverglades.net/zaandam-update/

 

FYI,  the conditions for accepting the ships are Very Clearly Stated in the FAQ since 2 days ago.  On Tuesday meeting, Carnival has NOT provided a satisfactory plan to answer those requirements - incl no commitment on the legal responsibilities on Who would bear the costs of this operation.

Coast Guards while removed the memo issued on Mar 29,  there is a link posted by someone upthread on their stance.  Coast Guards will not make any rescue mission until cruise ships commit to pay all costs incurred. 

 

To make the most important requirement from the Unified Command to Carnival, easier for everyone to read here -

 

What are the Unified Command's requirements that must be addressed in any plan submitted by a cruise line before a cruise ship is allowed to enter Port Everglades?

 

The Unified Command has developed a list of conditions that would need to be addressed in any Plan submitted by a cruise line. They include:  

• Full compliance with all regulatory requirements of U.S. Coast Guard, U.S. Customs and Border Protection as well as the U.S. Centers Disease Control and Prevention.
• All illnesses, conditions, medical concerns and or items of concern must be accurately disclosed and documented.
• Any last-minute disclosures when the vessel is in transit to the berth or dockside will suspend all operations until the necessary fact finding is completed to the satisfaction of those in the Unified Command.
• The cruise line, at its expense, will provide all Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) to all responders. 
• Temperature readings are for all disembarking crew and passengers before U.S. Customs and Border Protection processing.
• The cruise line, at its expense shall secure and arrange for private ambulatory transport. 
• The cruise line shall make all arrangements for care with the medical facilities.  
• To minimize exposure to shore staff, responders and the facility, as well as expedite transport by shuttle or bus or charter aircraft, passengers will leave the vessel with one personal item that holds only essential items.  The cruise line, at its expense, will sanitize all other luggage in a location provided by the receiving facility and arrange for reunification of the luggage as soon as possible.  
• The cruise line, at its expense, shall arrange for the disposal of all medical and agricultural waste in accordance with federal regulations. 
• To prevent cross contamination from spreading between the passengers, crew and into the local community, the cruise line will be required to sanitize the receiving facility, which may also include, but is not limited to, any equipment used by first responders, the facility, exposed equipment used by contractors and any hired equipment used for transportation of passengers.
• No less than 24 hours in advance of the start of debarkation, the cruise line will present a security plan for review and approval  to the Unified Command that demonstrates how passengers will debark orderly, safely and in compliance with current health advisories (i.e. social distancing). Failure to maintain good order may result in an immediate suspension of the debarkation until the situation is under control.
• All debarking passengers and crew must have a final, verifiable, travel itinerary prior to being allowed to debark the vessel.  

Also at the bottom of the FAQ - it points out Holland America contributes $8 millions to Port Everglades in 2019.   So y'all know it is NOT anywhere near what some here speculate.

 

[Babr]

41 minutes ago, LMaxwell said:

 

At the time of Grand Princess companies and government were willing to do extraordinary things in hopes of containment of the virus.  Now that containment has failed they have moved on from that strategy.  The plan must come from Carnival Corp and be approved by the Unified Command in Broward County. 

I know you are right. The answer makes sense from a logical perspective. But it takes on the feel of “every man for himself” now that 100,000 to 240,000 are predicted to die. I see too much disconnect in what we are being told everyday to what I see happening on the ground to have much confidence in some of the decisions being made.

[capriccio]

6 minutes ago, nho9504 said:

Here is the daily update of Port Everglades

 

https://www.porteverglades.net/zaandam-update/

 

FYI,  the conditions for accepting the ships are Very Clearly Stated in the FAQ since 2 days ago.  On Tuesday meeting, Carnival has NOT provided a satisfactory plan to answer those requirements - incl no commitment on the legal responsibilities on Who would bear the costs of this operation.

Coast Guards while removed the memo issued on Mar 29,  there is a link posted by someone upthread on their stance.  Coast Guards will not make any rescue mission until cruise ships commit to pay all costs incurred. 

 

To make the most important requirement from the Unified Command to Carnival, easier for everyone to read here -

 

What are the Unified Command's requirements that must be addressed in any plan submitted by a cruise line before a cruise ship is allowed to enter Port Everglades?

 

The Unified Command has developed a list of conditions that would need to be addressed in any Plan submitted by a cruise line. They include:  

• Full compliance with all regulatory requirements of U.S. Coast Guard, U.S. Customs and Border Protection as well as the U.S. Centers Disease Control and Prevention.
• All illnesses, conditions, medical concerns and or items of concern must be accurately disclosed and documented.
• Any last-minute disclosures when the vessel is in transit to the berth or dockside will suspend all operations until the necessary fact finding is completed to the satisfaction of those in the Unified Command.
• The cruise line, at its expense, will provide all Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) to all responders. 
• Temperature readings are for all disembarking crew and passengers before U.S. Customs and Border Protection processing.
• The cruise line, at its expense shall secure and arrange for private ambulatory transport. 
• The cruise line shall make all arrangements for care with the medical facilities.  
• To minimize exposure to shore staff, responders and the facility, as well as expedite transport by shuttle or bus or charter aircraft, passengers will leave the vessel with one personal item that holds only essential items.  The cruise line, at its expense, will sanitize all other luggage in a location provided by the receiving facility and arrange for reunification of the luggage as soon as possible.  
• The cruise line, at its expense, shall arrange for the disposal of all medical and agricultural waste in accordance with federal regulations. 
• To prevent cross contamination from spreading between the passengers, crew and into the local community, the cruise line will be required to sanitize the receiving facility, which may also include, but is not limited to, any equipment used by first responders, the facility, exposed equipment used by contractors and any hired equipment used for transportation of passengers.
• No less than 24 hours in advance of the start of debarkation, the cruise line will present a security plan for review and approval  to the Unified Command that demonstrates how passengers will debark orderly, safely and in compliance with current health advisories (i.e. social distancing). Failure to maintain good order may result in an immediate suspension of the debarkation until the situation is under control.
• All debarking passengers and crew must have a final, verifiable, travel itinerary prior to being allowed to debark the vessel.  

Also at the bottom of the FAQ - it points out Holland America contributes $8 millions to Port Everglades in 2019.   So y'all know it is NOT anywhere near what some here speculate.

 

It looks like the same one that has been posted since Monday.  Is it dated today?  I didn’t see an updated update on the site earlier.

[PelicanBill]

 

32 minutes ago, arabrab said:

HAL's rep said yesterday that "a couple" people on Rotterdam had flu-type symptoms. (The link is back a bunch of pages.)

 

From the very first moment we learned they were to transfer "healthy" passengers to the Rotterdam we knew it was destined to fail.  Without full testing, you cannot know who is infectious and not symptomatic.  It was inevitable that a few passengers would become symptomatic after transfer to Rotterdam.  Now we have two ships in the same situation. (Almost said in the same boat. )

[mrlevin]

Within range to medevac to either Havana or Key West; if it is to happen should happen soon.

 

 

[Aquahound]

I have nothing to do with the decision making in the 7th District but I can speak anecdotally about this. 

 

First, it is not true that the USCG said they must send the sick to where the ship is flagged.  What they said was that must be their first course of action...meaning if that does not work, other options would then be explored.  They go on to say that the company and ship's registry would be the ones responsible for care and transportation if they do need to be brought ashore.  That should be a gimme anyways. 

 

And two, this guidance was not released specific to Zaandam.  The cruise lines have been beating up South Florida and the USCG lately by failing to include on their Notice of Arrival (NOA) that there were sick on a recent Princess ship.  Furthermore, the CG had to medevac sick crew from 2 Costa ships last week, and RCI's Oasis also tried to medevac sick crew. 

 

So this goes much further than Zaandam.  We have numerous foreign flagged ships lingering off the FL coast who are relying on US assets and health care in an area that is already hot with COVID right now.  Unfortunately, Zaandam is sailing in to a mess that precedes them. 

 

For the sake of the passengers, I pray a resolution is found.  But until then, I urge people not to jump to conclusions right now on what's right or wrong.  There is no perfect response to this problem. 

[sansterre]

Yesterday's Broward County Commission Meeting.

(HAL Action begins around the 2 hour mark.)

 

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

Maybe some one has an idea how to get some special food treats to the crew on the ships . I'll contribute $$

marty 

martygottlieb13@gmail.com

[Plum Happy]

Trump plans to intervene on allowing Holland America cruise ships to dock in Florida

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/03/31/holland-america-docking-plan-coronavirus-infected-ship-florida/5095406002/

[capriccio]

43 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

I have nothing to do with the decision making in the 7th District but I can speak anecdotally about this. 

Thank you for your explanation.  That helped me understand the situation better.

Edited April 1, 2020 by capriccio

[PelicanBill]

Another consideration is the County and Port need to consider the ships need to return where HAL has resources and staff to handle the disembarkation correctly. Sending them to Galveston or New Orleans or Mobile where they don't have those resources is senseless.  

 

I sure hope the Coast Guard's new porky attitude does not extend to medevac of critically ill patients.

 

And, oh joy, the Bahamas, just where everyone wants to end up in a hospital and maybe in need of intensive care.  I know my insurance company would disown me.  And apparently travel insurance trying to wriggle out of coverage for that as well.

 

For the crew on these ships, one night in a foreign hospital anywhere might bankrupt their families. I hope the cruise lines are working hard, really hard, to protect them and get them home if needed.

 

[Classiccruiser777]

Mayport, Florida is the site of a large Navy base, the ships could go there regardless of local authorities. https://www.cnic.navy.mil/regions/cnrse/installations/ns_mayport.html
 

They way the people on the Zaandam and Rotterdam are being treated, as well as some of the comments on this blog, is unconscionable.

[greykitty]

2 minutes ago, Classiccruiser777 said:

Mayport, Florida is the site of a large Navy base, the ships could go there regardless of local authorities. https://www.cnic.navy.mil/regions/cnrse/installations/ns_mayport.html
 

They way the people on the Zaandam and Rotterdam are being treated, as well as some of the comments on this blog, is unconscionable.

We already have a issues with ill military personnel on both ships and land.  I would strongly wish that unless we can protect our military personnel, we do not dock sick ships near them.  I am not speaking of the active and reserve personnel who have been called up to directly deal with the crisis.

[sansterre]

I was going to take a break from this for awhile and saw this when I tried to check my mail.  Some quotes from passengers aboard the Rotterdam, etc.

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/04/01/cruise-ship-passengers-desperately-plead-with-florida-to-allow-them-in/23967265/

[Aquahound]

I know military bases have been mentioned as suggestions on this thread.  Folks need to understand this is a foreign flagged ship with 1000+ foreign nationals from numerous countries on board.  You can't just roll in to a US military facility with this make up.  The bureaucracy to make that happen would be far more complicated than what we are seeing in Broward County.