Attention Over 70 Year Old Cruisers

[ace2542]

What is to stop people from forging a Doctor's Note saying they are fit to travel? And it is not practical to have a ship's doctor who probably can't get a regular job checking hundreds of passengers.

 

My father is 82 type 2 diabetic the type that doesn't need injection. He just takes the pill with the long name and he is fine. Princess are saying Emerald to Alaska Sept 20th is probably going. If he get denied entry we will get deported from the USA back to UK and I will sue princess at that point.

[DaveSJ711]

8 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

What is to stop people from forging a Doctor's Note saying they are fit to travel? And it is not practical to have a ship's doctor who probably can't get a regular job checking hundreds of passengers.

 

My father is 82 type 2 diabetic the type that doesn't need injection. He just takes the pill with the long name and he is fine. Princess are saying Emerald to Alaska Sept 20th is probably going. If he get denied entry we will get deported from the USA back to UK and I will sue princess at that point.

 

Nothing stops people from forging a doctor's note other than, say, the potential for civil, criminal, and contractual liability.  No big deal.

[ace2542]

1 minute ago, DaveSJ711 said:

 

Nothing stops people from forging a doctor's note other than, say, the potential for civil, criminal, and contractual liability.  No big deal.

Most doctors will give a note anyway and you could never prove it had been forged but I agree would come back to bite you if you need to claim for insurance purposes. But we got denied boarding for his diabetes I would want  a full refund plus the flights home as we would likely be deported without them as we have now way  to book them. as we don't have smart phones. Though we would likely be deported and all our friends and family banned  to protect the person who denied us boarding.

[2beaglesmom]

Princess may well go “under” as they are alienating a large number of their regular clientele The last couple of times i called princess the reps were rude and dismissive i love cruising for so many reasons I always thought cruising was great for folks who are older, retired, and may have stamina or mobility issues I am very disheartened by these guidelines from princess as i am 72 and have heart issues I don’t mind jumping thru a couple of hoops to comply but i would not forge anything I am thinking that cruise lines with smaller ships may be more accommodating than princess and i may go with them if princess is too restrictive


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[Potstech]

9 hours ago, nini said:

There have been a few threads about this as well on other boards (HAL, RCC, Celebrity) and 

more. Some were very hot topics and merged with other similar threads.

 

I called Princess and one rep replied as if the policy was already implemented.

The second rep said that Princess has not adopted it. 

 

RCC and NCL have adopted it. I am not sure about others. MANY people say that NO WAY

will their doctor sign it due to liability issues. 

 

And some say that it is discrimination... think about that. How many people do YOU

know who are under age 70 and have these conditions? 

 

I still think it would be suicide for the cruise lines due to the demographics of cruising.

Quite a few under 70 with those conditions and some even worse.

[caribill]

18 hours ago, wannagonow123 said:

I got an e-mail from Princess this morning that had new guidelines for when they re-open. (Of course subject to change). Did not make reference to ages, however no passengers with chronic diseases will be allowed to board. (diabetes/ COPD).  Refund to be given if disclosed before boarding. If you lie and don't disclose and are caught, you will be put off at next port to fend for yourself to get home.

 

They said severe chronic diseases.

[caribill]

14 hours ago, spyro1952 said:

 
If your own doc won’t sign your good to cruise then you shouldn’t be cruising.  The cruise lines is not responsible for your denial.

 

It does not matter what your age is or what health conditions you have, doctors will not sign forms that ask them to predict the unknown.

[Robinsoncruiseso]

Given CLIA will come out with minimum guidelines for the CLIA lines to follow.  Celebrity has their prepared form for both those over 70 and the general form all will complete.  I am guessing (note I said guessing) all cruise lines will use similar wording.

See attached files.  Please read completely before saying "I'm this or that, now I can't cruise"

 

physician-fit-to-sail-form.pdf public-health-questionnaire-v2.pdf

[Bgwest]

9 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

It does not matter what your age is or what health conditions you have, doctors will not sign forms that ask them to predict the unknown.

Here's what confuses me about the predictability issue. 

 

I certainly agree that their title is MD or DO, not mentalist who can predict the future. At the same time, isn't such a letter akin to a sports physical or a pre-employment physical where the physician is asked to address the applicant's/patient's current condition and fitness to do a certain thing at the moment of the exam?

 

If my doc says I'm healthy on January 2 and I get sick on February 2, how is this different from a sports doc who says little Johnny is healthy and can play baseball on January 2 but yet little Johnny falls ill on February 2? Sports physicals and pre-employment physicals are given hundreds if not thousands of times across the country daily and no one bats an eye. 

 

What am I missing here?

[caribill]

59 minutes ago, Bgwest said:

Here's what confuses me about the predictability issue. 

 

I certainly agree that their title is MD or DO, not mentalist who can predict the future. At the same time, isn't such a letter akin to a sports physical or a pre-employment physical where the physician is asked to address the applicant's/patient's current condition and fitness to do a certain thing at the moment of the exam?

 

If my doc says I'm healthy on January 2 and I get sick on February 2, how is this different from a sports doc who says little Johnny is healthy and can play baseball on January 2 but yet little Johnny falls ill on February 2? Sports physicals and pre-employment physicals are given hundreds if not thousands of times across the country daily and no one bats an eye. 

 

What am I missing here?

 

The sports doctor is not saying if Johnny falls ill several days later he will be OK. It does not say Johnny will heal properly if he breaks a leg during a game.

 

The physician form in the above link says that the patient will not be adversely affected if he/she gets sick from the virus. It asks the physician to predict the future as it apples to that patient.

 

"I hereby certify that this patient does not suffer from any chronic illness (e.g. heart, lung, liver or
kidney disease or immunodeficiency status due to HIV/AIDS, cancer or diabetes) which would make
this patient susceptible to complications arising after infection with the Novel Coronavirus (2019-
nCoV)/COVID-19."

 

I suspect well over half of cruise ship adults have one or more of the conditions listed. No physician should be willing to assert that the virus would not cause complications in any such person.

[dog]

7 hours ago, ace2542 said:

Most doctors will give a note anyway and you could never prove it had been forged but I agree would come back to bite you if you need to claim for insurance purposes. But we got denied boarding for his diabetes I would want  a full refund plus the flights home as we would likely be deported without them as we have now way  to book them. as we don't have smart phones. Though we would likely be deported and all our friends and family banned  to protect the person who denied us boarding.

Before you book and pay for a cruise call Princess, fully disclose your severe chronic conditions and record the call. Of course tell them you are recording the call. Try for a letter from your doctor. 

[richsea]

13 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

The definition of "chronic" is long term.  High blood pressure is chronic.  Diabetes is chronic.  COPD is chronic.  Hypertension is chronic.  All controllable, still chronic.

Exactly my point. Hypertension affects about 1/3 of the population. If they intend to deny boarding to1/3 of guests, they won’t be very successful.

[AF-1]

Can someone show me where on Princess website it says they are restricting boarding to anyone over age 70?   I am not near that age; however I keep reading all these posts about age 70; but I do not see where Princess restricts it.  I know other cruise lines have wording; but this is a Princess thread.  Thanks for your help finding it.  

[ontheweb]

19 minutes ago, AF-1 said:

Can someone show me where on Princess website it says they are restricting boarding to anyone over age 70?   I am not near that age; however I keep reading all these posts about age 70; but I do not see where Princess restricts it.  I know other cruise lines have wording; but this is a Princess thread.  Thanks for your help finding it.  

As you have most likely read, Princess has not specifically said this. However, the CLIA, of which Princess belongs has endorsed this. Also other cruise lines have adopted it. Princess suspended cruises before the other lines adopted this, and therefore did not need to make a decision at the time. I think the speculation is will they follow other lines including for instance Carnival under the same corporate umbrella and adopt it sometime in the future.

[AF-1]

ontheweb;  thanks for your answer.  Have a wonderful day

[ace2542]

9 hours ago, Robinsoncruiseso said:

Given CLIA will come out with minimum guidelines for the CLIA lines to follow.  Celebrity has their prepared form for both those over 70 and the general form all will complete.  I am guessing (note I said guessing) all cruise lines will use similar wording.

See attached files.  Please read completely before saying "I'm this or that, now I can't cruise"

 

physician-fit-to-sail-form.pdf 43.22 kB · 26 downloads public-health-questionnaire-v2.pdf 53.14 kB · 18 downloads

And the wording is a load of rubbish because there is no mention of United Kingdom or Ireland both subject to USA Travel ban. The wording on fit to travel form MIGHT also fall foul of this whole GDPR data protection legislation within the EU which has been pushed in the last couple of years.

Edited April 23, 2020 by ace2542

[ace2542]

3 hours ago, richsea said:

Exactly my point. Hypertension affects about 1/3 of the population. If they intend to deny boarding to1/3 of guests, they won’t be very successful.

Diabetes is around the same level isn't it?

 

And if you are going on health shouldn't you also crack down on serious mobility? People on motorised scooters or in wheelchairs or two sticks, bad sighted etc? 

 

It was my teacher who died on the Elizabeth in Cambodia. She went between the tender and the ship and drowned and now you have to do a step test board a tender with Cunard and others I believe. 

 

If you can't complete the step test you can't board the tender so surely you shouldn't be on the ship? Because you can't get on the lifeboat unaided in the event of an emergency like the costa concordia for instance or a collision with another vessel or even a terror attack like on the U.S.S Cole god forbid. There may not be the time in a real emergency for the crew to aid mobility issue people and they will die. I know that is a horrible statement but is also probably true.

[Cruise Raider]

4 hours ago, richsea said:

Exactly my point. Hypertension affects about 1/3 of the population. If they intend to deny boarding to1/3 of guests, they won’t be very successful.

 

Deleted (see post below)

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Cruise Raider

[Cruise Raider]

Here is the latest statement from the CDC, which is what the cruise lines (via CLIA) have agreed integrate into their policies in an attempt to mitigate their/cruisers risk  (notice how it has been updated to eliminate much confusion over chronic medical conditions that are well controlled):  

 

People Who Are at Higher Risk for Severe Illness

COVID-19 is a new disease and there is limited information regarding risk factors for severe disease. Based on currently available information and clinical expertise, older adults and people of any age who have serious underlying medical conditions might be at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19.

Based on what we know now, those at high-risk for severe illness from COVID-19 are:

• People 65 years and older
• People who live in a nursing home or long-term care facility

People of all ages with underlying medical conditions, particularly if not well controlled, including:

• People with chronic lung disease or moderate to severe asthma
• People who have serious heart conditions
• People who are immunocompromised
  • Many conditions can cause a person to be immunocompromised, including cancer treatment, smoking, bone marrow or organ transplantation, immune deficiencies, poorly controlled HIV or AIDS, and prolonged use of corticosteroids and other immune weakening medications
• People with severe obesity (body mass index [BMI] of 40 or higher)
• People with diabetes
• People with chronic kidney disease undergoing dialysis
• People with liver disease

Link is found within source article:  

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/notices/warning/coronavirus-cruise-ship

[dog]

Key words:

 

severe

 

chronic

 

need Princess to define & explain what they mean

 

and to make sure Reps answering emails & the phone and screening at the pier are all applying rules consistently 

 

i don’t see this lasting through 2021. 

[Roberto256]

8 minutes ago, Cruise Raider said:

 

• People with severe obesity (body mass index [BMI] of 40 or higher)
•  

 

This should cut food costs tremendously.

 

[nini]

13 hours ago, Potstech said:

Quite a few under 70 with those conditions and some even worse.

Absolutely! 

[Pmorton3360]

I called Princess and they have changed the language about age and conditions. I did receive email asking me to  call.  I have a heart condition and wondering if I'd be stopped from boarding.  They really have not made a decision yet. I don't think anyone is leaving from NYC for awhile. My final payment is June,  so I'll wait to see. 

[nbsjcruiser]

18 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

The definition of "chronic" is long term.  High blood pressure is chronic.  Diabetes is chronic.  COPD is chronic.  Hypertension is chronic.  All controllable, still chronic.

But it  says "severe, chronic" not just chronic so I'd assume that if one had high blood pressure that was controlled then that would be fine. 

[Bgwest]

10 hours ago, caribill said:

 

The sports doctor is not saying if Johnny falls ill several days later he will be OK. It does not say Johnny will heal properly if he breaks a leg during a game.

 

The physician form in the above link says that the patient will not be adversely affected if he/she gets sick from the virus. It asks the physician to predict the future as it apples to that patient. Only patients who have a condition listed in the document are being scrutinized and it is only for those patients the doc is being asked to render a judgement. This is what doctors do. Will likely mean that those suffering from a listed ailment won't be getting a doctor's letter.  

 

"I hereby certify that this patient does not suffer from any chronic illness (e.g. heart, lung, liver or
kidney disease or immunodeficiency status due to HIV/AIDS, cancer or diabetes) which would make
this patient susceptible to complications arising after infection with the Novel Coronavirus (2019-
nCoV)/COVID-19."

 

I suspect well over half of cruise ship adults have one or more of the conditions listed. No physician should be willing to assert that the virus would not cause complications in any such person.

 

Respectfully, it appears that you are adding your own presumptive/predictive spin to what is said in the document. 

No where in the document does it say anything about asking the physician to "predict the future as it applies to that patient".

 

Rather, it asks the physician to certify that the patient (let's use me and those I cruise with in this example) does not suffer from any chronic illness (e.g. heart, lung, liver or kidney disease or immunodeficiency status due to HIV/AIDS, cancer or diabetes.  -none of us do - which would make this patient susceptible to complications arising after infection with the Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)/COVID-19." Wouldn't apply to us since none of us suffer from any of the above listed ailments. 

 

The statement is clear to me that it's asking only about ....make(ing)  this patient susceptible to complications....if and only if, said patient suffers from any of the list of ailments mentioned in that paragraph. 

 

So, unless I'm suffering from anything on their list, the second part of the paragraph disappears. 

 

Now, for those who are afflicted by any of the listed ailments, it's could be a different ballgame. And asking a physician to render a judgement about how susceptible his patient may be to the virus if said patient has, for example, some kind of debilitating lung disease is exactly what a physician should be doing.

 

Let's say you've just had surgery and the doc tells not to lift anything over 10 pounds for two weeks. The doc is properly recommending a course of action to keep his patient healthy. How would this be any different than a pulmonologist telling his patient "don't cruise because your condition will make you susceptible to complications arising after infection with the Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)/COVID-19".

 

The physician treating me and my group isn't being asked to "predict the future" while the pulmonologist treating the individual with lung disease is practicing medicine. Precisely what he's paid to do.

 

I don't see any crystal balls at work here. 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Bgwest