Carnival to Dump Six Ships

[terrierjohn]

4 hours ago, No pager thank you said:

, and respond to what their traditional customers want, as opposed to constantly target the "new age" group.

 

 

 

As I keep pointing out the 3 big ships sail full all year round, with what must be loyal traditional customers. So presumably this is what traditional customers want, and they outnumber the Aurora, Arcadia customers by nearly 3 to 1. Ergo P&O are already giving their traditional customers what they want.

[zap99]

15 minutes ago, Adawn47 said:

My idea of hell was RCI'S Indy. I admit she's  beautiful, but to us it was a full on American party ship. I hated being greeted everywhere we went with a cheery o.t.t "Hi Guys" On an 18 night cruise it drove me mad. It had everything a person could want except peace and quiet. If that had been our first cruise it would have been the last.

Avril 

When we exited the western approaches into the Bay of Biscay in a force 10 storm, Indy was fine😁

[No pager thank you]

9 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

As I keep pointing out the 3 big ships sail full all year round, with what must be loyal traditional customers. So presumably this is what traditional customers want, and they outnumber the Aurora, Arcadia customers by nearly 3 to 1. Ergo P&O are already giving their traditional customers what they want.

Not sure I agree with you to be honest - useful to have a good debate 😀. Having been on all the larger ships out of season, I can think of only once - Oceana strangely enough - where she sailed full.

 

What I would say is that, from my experience, the price per day on the larger ships on "standard" itineraries in off season are falling.  Late Savers are available pretty much on every cruise.

 

Ergo, yes the ships are being largely, but not entirely, filled, but only because some "traditionalists" are willing to compromise - due to price. 

 

Others, like Jean and Avril for instance, who prefer a more relaxing holiday just will not.  Azura, Ventura, Brittania, Iona are physically set up in a way which puts them off as they have expressed.

 

I wouldn't count myself as a traditionalist in the same way as such (strangely enough my personal favourites are the same as Andy's) - but that's not the same as the traditionalists actually getting what they want, which they may be willing to pay more for.

 

This suits Carnival to a point as its all about onboard spend opportunities.  To fill the larger ships out of season, they will need to extend the discounting mentality, possibly extended from the current state.  But there is only so much road.

 

It will be interesting to see in 2022 how cheap are the base fares are on Iona compared to Aurora and how extensively the on board pricing model is revamped.  In theory, Iona should be much more expensive than Aurora if it was only market forces, but often not the case.

[jeanlyon]

1 hour ago, Adawn47 said:

My idea of hell was RCI'S Indy. I admit she's  beautiful, but to us it was a full on American party ship. I hated being greeted everywhere we went with a cheery o.t.t "Hi Guys" On an 18 night cruise it drove me mad. It had everything a person could want except peace and quiet. If that had been our first cruise it would have been the last.

Avril 

Oh God, brings back my flying days.  It was one of the things I hated about the US "have a nice day" all the time.  "You'all come back now".

 

I got in from a flight to LA, went to the hotel shop to get myself some juice for my room.  I was still in uniform.  The girl behind the desk asked "What's the weather like in England right now?"  I said "it's 80 degrees, we're having a heatwave".  She said "Is that right?  I thought it was kinda cold over there?"  So I said "Well it's summer - August - and we're in the same northern hemisphere as you are!"  She then said "I didn't know that - do you'all celebrate December 25th, same day we do?" 

 

🤣

[Adawn47]

23 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

As I keep pointing out the 3 big ships sail full all year round, with what must be loyal traditional customers. So presumably this is what traditional customers want, and they outnumber the Aurora, Arcadia customers by nearly 3 to 1. Ergo P&O are already giving their traditional customers what they want.

Not all their traditional customers John. Only the ones who like the larger ships. While they keep Arcadia and Aurora they will be keeping all their older-style cruisers happy. It's when they eventually go they won’t be. Not everyone wants the same thing. P&O now have two kinds of passenger. Traditional and older-style. Does that help clear the confusion?  😆😉

Avril 

[Adawn47]

1 hour ago, zap99 said:

When we exited the western approaches into the Bay of Biscay in a force 10 storm, Indy was fine😁

Nothing to do with the stability of her. Although I can't comment on that. We had a calm cruise.

Avril 

[AchileLauro]

There's some quite interesting information on various you tube channels that suggest that the ships that Carnival are willing to dispense with are not necessarily all the older ships. The suitability of the actual ship to sail from certain home ports will come into the equation.  For instance in the U.S. in order to exit certain popular cruise ports the ships must be able to sail under bridges that the larger ships would not be able to pass under.

Another interesting "fact" were the stated % capacity figures given for various classes of ship which indicated that the larger ships were the only ones financially viable carrying reduced passenger numbers. No doubt the bean counters have already had a field day working out the various options open to the corporation. That just leaves us previous customers the fun of speculating on the kill list. Has anyone yet speculated on the possible transfer of ships between the various brands of the corporation.

Edited June 21, 2020 by AchileLauro

[tring]

2 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

As I keep pointing out the 3 big ships sail full all year round, with what must be loyal traditional customers. So presumably this is what traditional customers want, and they outnumber the Aurora, Arcadia customers by nearly 3 to 1. Ergo P&O are already giving their traditional customers what they want.

 

IMO a lot of P&O cruisers want a cruise at a cheap price and with the progressively bigger ships Carnival can keep the base price of a cruise down whilst providing themselves with a tidy profit from the extra spending opportunities.  That is the Carnival model and personally I suspect that is firmly where it will stay after all Carnival is interested in how much profit it can make rather than keeping all the same customers (who after all are largely becoming a bit long in the tooth, and can include me in that group).  We were on Minerva II just before Swan was axed and apparently once Carnival took over they made it perfectly clear they "do not do small", though I doubt they kept many old Swan's after it was axed.  Then again Swan's were known for not spending on the ship, so without being able to hike base prices to a large extent it was never going to be a model for Carnival.  Given subsequent events that seems to have been back up as the model did not prove viable for long after the brand was resurrected under All Leisure.

 

Those (like me) who want to keep to smaller ships, traditional style without finding ourselves dumped in a vastly overcrowded port  etc. will, I fear need to accept that we will pay more for their cruises and so whoever runs them, will need to maintain the product and mark very carefully - especially as many of us are beginning to appreciate better facilities (e.g.balconies).  Yes there are more up market lines, but they concentrate on "luxury" rather than tradition and prices are hiked to ridiculous extents.

 

In my mind P&O have a niche already compared to other British companies.  Bigger ships (and we consider the mid size ships to be "big"), cheaper cruises and more facilities on board.  Yes there are other big ships sailing from the UK, but none of them have the "Britishness" of P&O, nor do they offer cheaper bar prices, excursions etc.  To keep that niche, P&O need to keep their costs low and increase revenue in other ways, which of course we call spending opportunities.  They will also need to increase their passenger base and/or increase the number of cruises taken by each passenger, but I do not believe much of that would come from the mainly older CMV clientelle, as the majority are committed to much smaller ships regional departures and very different itineraries.  From Carnival's point of view they are not going to be big spenders either.  Increasing passengers will be a challenge in the short term, but as time goes on more customers will likely be found, partly from new retirees, of which I can see a number after this year and partly by offerings on the ships to occupy children/teens younger adults etc. - more like the other big cruise brands.

 

Just my opinion, but then would be difficult for anyone to predict the next few years under current circumstances.

Edited June 21, 2020 by tring

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, Adawn47 said:

Not all their traditional customers John. Only the ones who like the larger ships. While they keep Arcadia and Aurora they will be keeping all their older-style cruisers happy. It's when they eventually go they won’t be. Not everyone wants the same thing. P&O now have two kinds of passenger. Traditional and older-style. Does that help clear the confusion?  😆😉

Avril 

Avril,

We have sailed on Arcadia and Aurora, only once on each, but for able bodied passengers I think Arcadia's standard balcony cabins are the nicest in the fleet, just a pity the rest of the ship is so disjointed, and her accessible cabins are very small compared to the 3 big sisters. I was looking forward to our Aurora cruise last spring, especially her teak decked promenade, but we were both very disappointed with the prom deck, maybe because the weather, even in the Med, was windier and cooler than usual. As a result we made far less use of it than we normally would on Azura or Ventura. The rest of the ship was OK, but did not live up to our expectations, mainly I suspect because there were too many dead ends where wheelchairs could not proceed. We much prefer the bigger more spacious bars and entertainment venues on the bigger ships, again because we find it easier to navigate a wheelchair in these areas. Overall Aurora did not float our boat, and those over soft seats in the theatre became unbearably uncomfortable after  only 15 minutes, which meant I was desperate for the shows to end.

The point I am making is that not all of Aurora and Arcadia's passengers will be as dedicated to them as say you, Jean and Andy, equally I guess there will be some disgruntled passengers on the 3 big ships who prefer smaller ships, but for possibly price they are willing to change their choice.

I will grant you one point though, more of the small ship aficionados seem to hate the very idea of big ships,  than vice versa. Whilst I prefer the bigger newer ships for their better accessible cabins and features, I still think I would prefer them even we were still both able bodied.

John.

[AndyMichelle]

9 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Avril,

We have sailed on Arcadia and Aurora, only once on each, but for able bodied passengers I think Arcadia's standard balcony cabins are the nicest in the fleet, just a pity the rest of the ship is so disjointed, and her accessible cabins are very small compared to the 3 big sisters. I was looking forward to our Aurora cruise last spring, especially her teak decked promenade, but we were both very disappointed with the prom deck, maybe because the weather, even in the Med, was windier and cooler than usual. As a result we made far less use of it than we normally would on Azura or Ventura. The rest of the ship was OK, but did not live up to our expectations, mainly I suspect because there were too many dead ends where wheelchairs could not proceed. We much prefer the bigger more spacious bars and entertainment venues on the bigger ships, again because we find it easier to navigate a wheelchair in these areas. Overall Aurora did not float our boat, and those over soft seats in the theatre became unbearably uncomfortable after  only 15 minutes, which meant I was desperate for the shows to end.

The point I am making is that not all of Aurora and Arcadia's passengers will be as dedicated to them as say you, Jean and Andy, equally I guess there will be some disgruntled passengers on the 3 big ships who prefer smaller ships, but for possibly price they are willing to change their choice.

I will grant you one point though, more of the small ship aficionados seem to hate the very idea of big ships,  than vice versa. Whilst I prefer the bigger newer ships for their better accessible cabins and features, I still think I would prefer them even we were still both able bodied.

John.

A good perspective John. 

Ironically, we found the promenade on Ventura unusable as one side was just a smoking area, unlike our 3 1/4 trips around Auroras after breakfast. 

Although we do love Aurora, we are not solely dedicated to smaller ships and appreciate what the newer/bigger ships offer. 

Budget has previously played a part and I suspect, going forward, we will be priced out of balcony cabins on Aurora and, who knows, Iona may become our new favourite... But I am still unsure.. 

We love Britannia, so there is hope... 

Andy 

Edited June 21, 2020 by AndyMichelle

[majortom10]

I would rather have a sometimes in your face pleasantries in your face than staff on P&O in recent years and P&Oers who are either moaning about the weather, toast at breakfast or P&O in general. Met two ladies on first full sea day on Britannia's maiden voyage while having a coffee in atrium, first thing they asked was have you any faults/complaints about the ship and at that point got out a sheet of paper and a pen and openly admitted they were making a list of everyone's complaints/faults so they could write to P&O when they got home. At that point a waiter came and asked them if they wanted to drink and how they spoke was disgusting and said if I want a coffee I will go up to the buffet and not pay for it down here. If that is the attitude of traditional P&Oers who dont like the big ships then I dont blame P&O for trying to get a younger clientele.

[grapau27]

3 hours ago, jeanlyon said:

Oh God, brings back my flying days.  It was one of the things I hated about the US "have a nice day" all the time.  "You'all come back now".

 

I got in from a flight to LA, went to the hotel shop to get myself some juice for my room.  I was still in uniform.  The girl behind the desk asked "What's the weather like in England right now?"  I said "it's 80 degrees, we're having a heatwave".  She said "Is that right?  I thought it was kinda cold over there?"  So I said "Well it's summer - August - and we're in the same northern hemisphere as you are!"  She then said "I didn't know that - do you'all celebrate December 25th, same day we do?" 

 

🤣

I agree with you about the Americans plus they always ask

Where Are You From.

[molecrochip]

3 hours ago, AchileLauro said:

There's some quite interesting information on various you tube channels that suggest that the ships that Carnival are willing to dispense with are not necessarily all the older ships. The suitability of the actual ship to sail from certain home ports will come into the equation.  For instance in the U.S. in order to exit certain popular cruise ports the ships must be able to sail under bridges that the larger ships would not be able to pass under.

Another interesting "fact" were the stated % capacity figures given for various classes of ship which indicated that the larger ships were the only ones financially viable carrying reduced passenger numbers. No doubt the bean counters have already had a field day working out the various options open to the corporation. That just leaves us previous customers the fun of speculating on the kill list. Has anyone yet speculated on the possible transfer of ships between the various brands of the corporation.

Carnival will sell any ship if it receives the right offer for it.

19 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

I would rather have a sometimes in your face pleasantries in your face than staff on P&O in recent years and P&Oers who are either moaning about the weather, toast at breakfast or P&O in general. Met two ladies on first full sea day on Britannia's maiden voyage while having a coffee in atrium, first thing they asked was have you any faults/complaints about the ship and at that point got out a sheet of paper and a pen and openly admitted they were making a list of everyone's complaints/faults so they could write to P&O when they got home. At that point a waiter came and asked them if they wanted to drink and how they spoke was disgusting and said if I want a coffee I will go up to the buffet and not pay for it down here. If that is the attitude of traditional P&Oers who dont like the big ships then I dont blame P&O for trying to get a younger clientele.

You make an interesting point.

 

When Britannia first launched, P&O were overwhelmed with complaints about no central staircase. At this time, there was a very high percentage of existing customer cruising on Britannia, and the core demographic was 60+. By 2018, a significantly higher proportion of Britannia's passengers were first timers, and a significantly higher proportion of younger passengers. Guess what, the number of complaints regarding the central staircase dropped - to practically zero. History says that if a problem persists, complaint persist.

 

New passengers didn't expect a central staircase and didn't miss it. Instead of a costly change of central staircase, P&O spent the budget on changing the atrium which was still receiving poor reviews.

 

Sadly, this is a case of familiarity bias. People line them selves up to be disappointed by no central staircase and therefore were disappointed once on board. I can't tell you the number of times I read "I don't like large ships but I've booked to go on Britannia's maiden". Those passengers had already told themselves that they were not going to like the ship before arriving at the port. Its very difficult for a company to change that presumptive perception in most cases. Those passengers then look for the negatives to confirm their perception. They fail to see the positives.

 

But hey, they got to sail on the maiden cruise - tick! They probably complained after, got a hamper and a letter starting "Were're sorry the cruise did not meet your expectations". Of course, this is the complaints team following the mantra of the customer is always right. The letter should have started "We're sorry you failed to set your expectations correctly. We did explain what you were buying correctly but instead you hoped it would something different."

[NoFlyGuy]

15 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

I would rather have a sometimes in your face pleasantries in your face than staff on P&O in recent years and P&Oers who are either moaning about the weather, toast at breakfast or P&O in general. Met two ladies on first full sea day on Britannia's maiden voyage while having a coffee in atrium, first thing they asked was have you any faults/complaints about the ship and at that point got out a sheet of paper and a pen and openly admitted they were making a list of everyone's complaints/faults so they could write to P&O when they got home. At that point a waiter came and asked them if they wanted to drink and how they spoke was disgusting and said if I want a coffee I will go up to the buffet and not pay for it down here. If that is the attitude of traditional P&Oers who dont like the big ships then I dont blame P&O for trying to get a younger clientele.

A bit too much of a generalisation for me. We've met all sorts from all age groups on our cruises and it seems to us that those who want complain (justified or otherwise) come from all age groups.

With Covid-19 still a problem, we've found that the older people are far more likely to obey social distancing rules whilst we are out on our walks.

The number of times we've had to call out 'excuse me, can we walk through' on a relatively narrow path whilst some young couple or a young family group seem incapable of walking in single file for ten yards before we have passed on the other side of the path or footpath. Is it really that difficult?

 

[grapau27]

24 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

I would rather have a sometimes in your face pleasantries in your face than staff on P&O in recent years and P&Oers who are either moaning about the weather, toast at breakfast or P&O in general. Met two ladies on first full sea day on Britannia's maiden voyage while having a coffee in atrium, first thing they asked was have you any faults/complaints about the ship and at that point got out a sheet of paper and a pen and openly admitted they were making a list of everyone's complaints/faults so they could write to P&O when they got home. At that point a waiter came and asked them if they wanted to drink and how they spoke was disgusting and said if I want a coffee I will go up to the buffet and not pay for it down here. If that is the attitude of traditional P&Oers who dont like the big ships then I dont blame P&O for trying to get a younger clientele.

We have come across a few complainers like those unfortunately and why we prefer a table for 2 when eating.

I have had strangers asking straight out How Many Cruises Have You Done?.

A point no one has mentioned is 'No Tips'required which might count against P&O traditional ships Oceana,Aurora and Arcadia staying with Carnival because with the Bean Counters it goes against their way of thinking.

The bigger ships have the passenger capacity to overcome tips included but I wouldn't be surprised if that option doesn't change post covid19 when they are looking to recuperate their losses. 

 

[zap99]

1 hour ago, grapau27 said:

I agree with you about the Americans plus they always ask

Where Are You From.

Yes, they do tend to be nice, friendly people.

[wowzz]

1 hour ago, grapau27 said:

I have had strangers asking straight out How Many Cruises Have You Done?.

That has been our experience on P&O as well, much more than any other cruise line. 

We had some terrible experiences on our last Oceana cruise, with other cruisers that only wanted to talk about how  many cruises they had been on,  how standards had lapsed,  and why they only cruised with P&O !

When we mentioned that we preferred Princess, (even though it is the same company),  our table mates seemed apoplectic. 

In the end my wife would only go to the MDR if we had a table for two. 

I just wish we had met the likes of everyone on this forum, as I am sure we would have all got on extremely well. Unfortunately there are a lot of ignorant people out there!

[majortom10]

1 hour ago, NoFlyGuy said:

A bit too much of a generalisation for me. We've met all sorts from all age groups on our cruises and it seems to us that those who want complain (justified or otherwise) come from all age groups.

With Covid-19 still a problem, we've found that the older people are far more likely to obey social distancing rules whilst we are out on our walks.

The number of times we've had to call out 'excuse me, can we walk through' on a relatively narrow path whilst some young couple or a young family group seem incapable of walking in single file for ten yards before we have passed on the other side of the path or footpath. Is it really that difficult?

 

Funny how we all have different experiences. Where we go out for a walk we would be lucky if we saw anybody so social distancing or worries about Covid-19 is not an issue. The only place I have had any social distancing  problems is when shopping in our local supermarket and even though it is well organised by the store and staff the issues I have had is people keeping 2 metres apart. In general it is the 70+ age group who are oblivious to anything and perhaps shouldnt be out shopping anyway because they are possibly classified as high risk and are putting themselves at great risk.

[zap99]

4 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

Funny how we all have different experiences. Where we go out for a walk we would be lucky if we saw anybody so social distancing or worries about Covid-19 is not an issue. The only place I have had any social distancing  problems is when shopping in our local supermarket and even though it is well organised by the store and staff the issues I have had is people keeping 2 metres apart. In general it is the 70+ age group who are oblivious to anything and perhaps shouldnt be out shopping anyway because they are possibly classified as high risk and are putting themselves at great risk.

We were waiting to go into Waitrose this morning, there was a small queue. The Lady in front of us had left a gap of about 3m. The woman who walked up thought that it was so that she could skip the queue. I told her that the 10 people behind us were waiting. But I'm in a rush and am a pensioner she said. She soon got the message.

[Adawn47]

3 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

Avril,

We have sailed on Arcadia and Aurora, only once on each, but for able bodied passengers I think Arcadia's standard balcony cabins are the nicest in the fleet, just a pity the rest of the ship is so disjointed, and her accessible cabins are very small compared to the 3 big sisters. I was looking forward to our Aurora cruise last spring, especially her teak decked promenade, but we were both very disappointed with the prom deck, maybe because the weather, even in the Med, was windier and cooler than usual. As a result we made far less use of it than we normally would on Azura or Ventura. The rest of the ship was OK, but did not live up to our expectations, mainly I suspect because there were too many dead ends where wheelchairs could not proceed. We much prefer the bigger more spacious bars and entertainment venues on the bigger ships, again because we find it easier to navigate a wheelchair in these areas. Overall Aurora did not float our boat, and those over soft seats in the theatre became unbearably uncomfortable after  only 15 minutes, which meant I was desperate for the shows to end.

The point I am making is that not all of Aurora and Arcadia's passengers will be as dedicated to them as say you, Jean and Andy, equally I guess there will be some disgruntled passengers on the 3 big ships who prefer smaller ships, but for possibly price they are willing to change their choice.

I will grant you one point though, more of the small ship aficionados seem to hate the very idea of big ships,  than vice versa. Whilst I prefer the bigger newer ships for their better accessible cabins and features, I still think I would prefer them even we were still both able bodied.

John.

I can understand why you like the larger ships. We like the smaller ships because to us they feel more comfortable and have the feeling of 'being at sea' I'm probably not explaining it properly but it's the only way I can think of to describe it. 

Avril 

[wowzz]

41 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

Funny how we all have different experiences. Where we go out for a walk we would be lucky if we saw anybody so social distancing or worries about Covid-19 is not an issue. The only place I have had any social distancing  problems is when shopping in our local supermarket and even though it is well organised by the store and staff the issues I have had is people keeping 2 metres apart. In general it is the 70+ age group who are oblivious to anything and perhaps shouldnt be out shopping anyway because they are possibly classified as high risk and are putting themselves at great risk.

Although in a well ventilated area like a supermarket,  and unless you are going to spend 15 minutes face to face with someone, the 2 metre rule is an absolute waste of time.

Within the next week, all those stupid 2 metre posters and signs can be thrown away. 

[pepperheart]

two points of intrest carnival in america have some ships that were built in 1990 and 1991 etc wheras aurora and arcadio were built ten years or so later AND sadly the death rate in america with the virus is over 122,000 people so far and some of those must be cruisers

[Josy1953]

7 hours ago, wowzz said:

That has been our experience on P&O as well, much more than any other cruise line. 

We had some terrible experiences on our last Oceana cruise, with other cruisers that only wanted to talk about how  many cruises they had been on,  how standards had lapsed,  and why they only cruised with P&O !

When we mentioned that we preferred Princess, (even though it is the same company),  our table mates seemed apoplectic. 

In the end my wife would only go to the MDR if we had a table for two. 

I just wish we had met the likes of everyone on this forum, as I am sure we would have all got on extremely well. Unfortunately there are a lot of ignorant people out there!

We always do anytime dining and always ask for a table for two because it is tiresome to keep telling people how many cruises we have been on.  They then ask what we think of the poor standards on P&O but when we say that we think there are good and bad aspects of all lines they rant on about no line being as good as P&O.  Rant over because in reality these people are the minority and we have met many wonderful people on our cruises some of whom we are still in contact with.

[AndyMichelle]

42 minutes ago, Josy1953 said:

We always do anytime dining and always ask for a table for two because it is tiresome to keep telling people how many cruises we have been on.  They then ask what we think of the poor standards on P&O but when we say that we think there are good and bad aspects of all lines they rant on about no line being as good as P&O.  Rant over because in reality these people are the minority and we have met many wonderful people on our cruises some of whom we are still in contact with.

We must be so lucky.. With the exception of Malcolm, who wasn't even a table mate, we have only ever encountered nice people and made many good friends and we always share large tables. 

Does it matter if people are interested in your cruising history? It's the one thing we all have in common, so will obviously be a talking point. 

I learn from more experienced cruisers and help less experienced ones with the little quirks that we all find as we go along. 

If someone asks how many cruises you have been on, it probably isn't to brag about theirs, but to pick your brains. 

Andy 

[SarahHben]

Genuine question...
As a newbie, and having reading this forum for a while now, I sometimes wonder why ‘how many cruises have you been on?’ is such a no-no? I would be really interested to hear people’s experiences & it would be a subject in common, we would be on a cruise ship together after all.


Sent from my iPhone using Forums