When do you realistically expect to cruise again?

[KirkNC]

3 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

There are national experts who are now saying that there is a need for a complete national shut-down if this pandemic is going to be controlled.  In this day of a dis-United States of America, how can that be accomplished?

 

One of the reasons that the Roman Empire failed was because it became ungovernable.  I submit our Country is approaching--if we are not already there--at that point.  

 

 

All empires rise and all empires fall.

[npcl]

15 hours ago, KirkNC said:

I am thinking it will be actions like this that help pressure CDC to meet the industry half way.  
 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/23289-port-canaveral-urges-congressional-leaders-to-support-u-s-seaports.html
 

As cruising carefully restarts in Europe, once the US gets the virus under control (who knows when), I think you will see growing economic and political pressure to start it here in the US.  To be clear, I am not suggesting resumption before we have a MUCH lower rate of infection but the laundry list of potential protocols the CDC is hinting at will put the industry out of business (see recent request for comments topics in the federal register).  That will means lots of lost jobs here and internationally plus thousands of unhappy cruisers.

Now what exactly do you think is meeting  the cruise lines half way?

 

only require half of what they think is needed?

 

only review half of the cruise lines plans and just accept the rest?

 

Plans that the CDC has requested, but the cruiselines have not submitted yet according to reports from both sides.

 

This is not a business contract where they can meet halfway on price.

 

This is a situation where either the plans provide for the ability to safely cruise or they do not.

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, KirkNC said:

All empires rise and all empires fall.

But none expect it or foresee their end.

[kangforpres]

Well I think others have stated that if the Germans can't master "social-distant" cruising then nobody can. Here is a report on their first attempt from Cruise Radio.

 

https://cruiseradio.net/with-cruising-back-what-we-know-about-masks-capacity-more/

 

-Paul

[kangforpres]

I hear you KirkNC, a real 6 week shut down with no interstate travel, no public transit, 90% of all economic activity stops. Then start over again and this time using our brains.

 

-Paul

[KirkNC]

55 minutes ago, kangforpres said:

Well I think others have stated that if the Germans can't master "social-distant" cruising then nobody can. Here is a report on their first attempt from Cruise Radio.

 

https://cruiseradio.net/with-cruising-back-what-we-know-about-masks-capacity-more/

 

-Paul

Thanks for the link, sounds like so far, so good.  I think this is a very important venture.

[KirkNC]

55 minutes ago, kangforpres said:

I hear you KirkNC, a real 6 week shut down with no interstate travel, no public transit, 90% of all economic activity stops. Then start over again and this time using our brains.

 

-Paul

Problem is we can’t even agree and pull together for the common good on simple things like wearing a mask so I doubt we could get everyone onboard with a do over.

[RocketMan275]

3 hours ago, kangforpres said:

I hear you KirkNC, a real 6 week shut down with no interstate travel, no public transit, 90% of all economic activity stops. Then start over again and this time using our brains.

 

-Paul

You do realize the consequences of such a policy would be far more catastrophic than the virus?

[RocketMan275]

17 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

There are national experts who are now saying that there is a need for a complete national shut-down if this pandemic is going to be controlled.  In this day of a dis-United States of America, how can that be accomplished?

So far, those 'experts' have only demonstrated that they are not 'experts'. 

Very little of what they've 'experted' has been correct. 

Why should we believe they're 'experting' this time?  

2 hours ago, KirkNC said:

Problem is we can’t even agree and pull together for the common good on simple things like wearing a mask so I doubt we could get everyone onboard with a do over.

Those 'national experts' can't even agree on whether we should wear masks or not. 

Just compare how their advice on masks have changed since February.

Even the 'national expert' Fauci has changed his position several times.  

Edited July 28, 2020 by RocketMan275

[cruisemom42]

51 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

 

Those 'national experts' can't even agree on whether we should wear masks or not. 

Just compare how their advice on masks have changed since February.

Even the 'national expert' Fauci has changed his position several times.  

 

What you always leave out is the following part "changed his position several times .... due to new information and an assessment of the current situation."

 

Let me provide an analogy. Let's say you and your family decided to drive to Florida to board your cruise. You map your route based on current road conditions, fastest route, whatever.

 

Then let's say that you stop for the first night and during the evening, the tropical storm that was hanging out in the Gulf becomes a full-flung hurricane whose projected path will mean you and your family have to drive right through the center of it.  

 

Would you change your mind based on this new information or stubbornly stick to your first course, no matter what? 

 

[RocketMan275]

23 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

What you always leave out is the following part "changed his position several times .... due to new information and an assessment of the current situation."

 

Let me provide an analogy. Let's say you and your family decided to drive to Florida to board your cruise. You map your route based on current road conditions, fastest route, whatever.

 

Then let's say that you stop for the first night and during the evening, the tropical storm that was hanging out in the Gulf becomes a full-flung hurricane whose projected path will mean you and your family have to drive right through the center of it.  

 

Would you change your mind based on this new information or stubbornly stick to your first course, no matter what? 

 

Since you agree that the 'experts' have changed their opinions, information, and assessments multiple times, why do you have so much confidence that their opinions, information, and assessments are correct this time?  If they've been wrong so badly in the past, they could just as easily be wrong today.  

 

BTW, your hurricane analogy is flawed because the existence of a hurricane is a fact.  These experts only have opinions.  Every time Fauci changed his opinions on masks, he was relying upon the best information available but as you say even the best information has a way of changing.  I really do believe most of the experts are doing the very best they can that doesn't mean they're right.  It is entirely possible they were right the first time and wrong this time.

[rkacruiser]

6 hours ago, kangforpres said:

I hear you KirkNC, a real 6 week shut down with no interstate travel, no public transit, 90% of all economic activity stops. Then start over again and this time using our brains.

 

-Paul

 

...and not "my gut" and wishful thinking and "cures" that are not "cures".  (Which just today is being reported that "someone" is still touting!)

 

3 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Those 'national experts' can't even agree on whether we should wear masks or not. 

 

It has become a "fact" that wearing a mask can make a significant difference in spreading this virus.  

 

Have you seen the photos of the Congressional leaders honoring the late Rep. Lewis lying in State in the Capitol Rotunda?  All were wearing masks.  VPOTUS wears a mask.  POTUS has been seen wearing a mask at times.  

 

Do I enjoy wearing a mask?  I most certainly do not!  But, I do it because I know it is the proper thing to do currently and it is my civic duty--as I see it--to do so.  

[kangforpres]

3 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

You do realize the consequences of such a policy would be far more catastrophic than the virus?

Let's see would I rather have the Catastrophe they are suffering in South Korea and or Germany, compared to the one we have in the USA? Yes I would change catastrophes instantly!

[RocketMan275]

17 minutes ago, kangforpres said:

Let's see would I rather have the Catastrophe they are suffering in South Korea and or Germany, compared to the one we have in the USA? Yes I would change catastrophes instantly!

Did Korea and Germany close down 90% of their economic activity for six weeks? 

Do you have any idea what closing down 90% of our economy for six weeks would mean?

[RocketMan275]

50 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

...and not "my gut" and wishful thinking and "cures" that are not "cures".  (Which just today is being reported that "someone" is still touting!)

 

 

It has become a "fact" that wearing a mask can make a significant difference in spreading this virus.  

 

Have you seen the photos of the Congressional leaders honoring the late Rep. Lewis lying in State in the Capitol Rotunda?  All were wearing masks.  VPOTUS wears a mask.  POTUS has been seen wearing a mask at times.  

 

Do I enjoy wearing a mask?  I most certainly do not!  But, I do it because I know it is the proper thing to do currently and it is my civic duty--as I see it--to do so.  

The backlash against HCQ is absurd.  I don't know if it is a cure or not but I do know that the hype about how dangerous HCQ is absurd.  When I was stationed in Korea, there were bottles of HCQ on every table in every mess hall with instructions on dosages.  We were ordered to take it.  We weren't in the hospital.  We weren't under a doctor's supervision.  In all the year I was there, taking HCQ, I never say someone keel over from a heart attack after taking the HCQ.    

 

My point wasn't about wearing masks, it was about trusting the constantly changing advice of experts.  Their advice has changed multiple times.  How do you know they were wrong then and right now?

 

Personally, I believe people/politicians want to be seen doing something.  Mask wearing, whether it is effective or  not, has become an emblem saying "Look at me, I'm doing something."

[zoeben]

Someone on page 5 mentioned that HAL’S private island is no more. Does anyone know

ehat happened! Thanks 😊 

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

When I was stationed in Korea, there were bottles of HCQ on every table in every mess hall with instructions on dosages.  We were ordered to take it.  We weren't in the hospital.  We weren't under a doctor's supervision.  

 

When you served in Korea, sir, was Covid-19 an issue?

 

[crusinbanjo]

I suspect, (but have no official knowledge), that RI, (close to where Mrs Banjo and I live),  is experiencing an uptick in the CV-19.   Numbers are up marginally, if this turns out to be the case, we will be home a lot longer.  I certainly hope I am wrong!

[RuthC]

13 minutes ago, crusinbanjo said:

I suspect, (but have no official knowledge), that RI, (close to where Mrs Banjo and I live),  is experiencing an uptick in the CV-19.   Numbers are up marginally, if this turns out to be the case, we will be home a lot longer.  I certainly hope I am wrong!

If this is a trend, then you can bet the cruise budget that the governor will tighten up on restrictions again. She's serious about keeping covid under control. 
I want to be able to get out of here eventually, too (and not in a body bag).

[rkacruiser]

6 minutes ago, RuthC said:

I want to be able to get out of here eventually, too (and not in a body bag).

 

Oh, I do so agree!  But, that day is some distance away, I am afraid.

[Horizon chaser 1957]

2 hours ago, zoeben said:

Someone on page 5 mentioned that HAL’S private island is no more. Does anyone know

ehat happened! Thanks 😊 

Relax. The reference was in regards to the Bahamas currently banning US residents, not implying that the island had been sold.

[colbe]

4 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

We were ordered to take it.  We weren't in the hospital.  We weren't under a doctor's supervision.  In all the year I was there, taking HCQ, I never say someone keel over from a heart attack after taking the HCQ.    

Sir, if I could just respectfully ask a couple of questions. Were you critically ill with a complex viral infection? Did you have other underlying medical conditions?

[npcl]

8 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Since you agree that the 'experts' have changed their opinions, information, and assessments multiple times, why do you have so much confidence that their opinions, information, and assessments are correct this time?  If they've been wrong so badly in the past, they could just as easily be wrong today.  

 

BTW, your hurricane analogy is flawed because the existence of a hurricane is a fact.  These experts only have opinions.  Every time Fauci changed his opinions on masks, he was relying upon the best information available but as you say even the best information has a way of changing.  I really do believe most of the experts are doing the very best they can that doesn't mean they're right.  It is entirely possible they were right the first time and wrong this time.

actually they have not changed all that much. All of the changes in recommendations tie back to 3 main items.

 

1. mode of transmission. They first thought that transfer was mostly by contact through contaminated surfaces and large droplets.  Now that know that it transfers mostly by air, and less by contact. Thus the change with masks.

 

2. Asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic  transmission. At first it was thought to be like SARS. Transmission occured after symptoms manifested. Now they know many infected do not show symptoms and those that do develop are most infectious 24 hours before symptoms manifest.  Another reason for masks and social distancing.

 

3. Nature of illness. Originally thought worst symptoms was infection in lungs leading to double pneumonia. Now it is identified that most damage is due to inflammation and massive blood clotting. Including damage occurring weeks after infection  such as the inflammation syndrome on children.

[RocketMan275]

8 hours ago, colbe said:

Sir, if I could just respectfully ask a couple of questions. Were you critically ill with a complex viral infection? Did you have other underlying medical conditions?

Good questions.  The claim is HCQ should only be administered to those in a hospital and under a physician's care.  Critically ill patients would met those conditions and already be admitted to a hospital and under a physician's supervision.  Indications are HCQ should be given early in the infections, not after a patient become critically ill, even as a prophylactic. 

[RocketMan275]

7 hours ago, npcl said:

actually they have not changed all that much. All of the changes in recommendations tie back to 3 main items.

 

1. mode of transmission. They first thought that transfer was mostly by contact through contaminated surfaces and large droplets.  Now that know that it transfers mostly by air, and less by contact. Thus the change with masks.

 

2. Asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic  transmission. At first it was thought to be like SARS. Transmission occured after symptoms manifested. Now they know many infected do not show symptoms and those that do develop are most infectious 24 hours before symptoms manifest.  Another reason for masks and social distancing.

 

3. Nature of illness. Originally thought worst symptoms was infection in lungs leading to double pneumonia. Now it is identified that most damage is due to inflammation and massive blood clotting. Including damage occurring weeks after infection  such as the inflammation syndrome on children.

Those examples should be sufficient to make you question whether those 'experts' are really experts.