P&O Update

[tring]

11 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

It is a minefield but sadly I had to spend quite a bit of time during my last 2 years at work ploughing through various legislative documents regarding GDPR (time that I shall never get back 😂). In the past companies often relied on ‘passive consent’, in other words, almost anything was possible as long as you hadn’t specifically instructed a company that you didn’t consent to it (not really true, I’m over simplifying to make the point). Nowadays, post GDPR, you have to have provided ‘active consent’. The powers that be would not deem it ‘reasonable’ that a company could be expected to sell your personal details to a third party without you having specifically and proactively consented that they may do so. I should imagine that it gets even more complicated post a company collapse, as I’m not sure that active consent automatically passes to administrators to do with as they please. I very much doubt it (as consent wasn’t given to them directly) but that’s an area I didn’t have to look into, thankfully. 

 

We had been contacted and had to reply with an agreement to stay on the database, so I think that is active agreement.  It should be possible to get that by email now and assume the administrators would be allowed to contact us, but as you say maybe depends on the reason for contact.  Whatever, the administrators will be looking to maximise what they can get.

[Britboys]

1 hour ago, Selbourne said:

I agree that the regional departure ports would have been a big draw for many Andrew and Southampton isn’t for everyone. On the other hand, CMV was somewhat of a ‘budget’ brand and the few operators that will retain regional departure ports (e.g. Fred Olsen / Saga) may be a bit pricy for many CMV customers. P&O used to be mid market but seems to be moving rapidly towards mass market and will probably be the cheapest alternative? In that case, my theory is that enough former CMV customers will find their way to P&O to make a difference, without any expenditure being needed.

I don't disagree with much of what you have said but also feel the regional departures attracted a lot of new cruisers who may choose to go back to package holidays from their local airport rather than the long journey Southampton and possible extra expense for travel or parking. It also depends on whether those pax fancy the idea of the big ships...

[Britboys]

36 minutes ago, Dermotsgirl said:

I think there was already a good amount of brand cross over with CMV. When we've cruised with CMV, most of the people that we spoke to had already cruised with other lines, most likely P&O, Fred Olsen and Cunard with a smattering of Saga. We also recognised other people who we remembered seeing on P&O.

 

Quite a few seemed like us - our  main cruise line is P&O, with a leaning towards Fred Olsen, but we regarded CMV is good for a low price, cheeky extra cruise from a local port ( Tilbury in our case) 

But that could be more common with those pax sailing from Tilbury as Southampton is in easy striking distance.

[Britboys]

28 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

P&O launch prices have been well below the best offers CMV ever had.

But not necessarily for the smaller ships...

[No pager thank you]

2 hours ago, pete14 said:

Or to put the other point of view, launch prices could be at the same level as they have been for several years and fcc could be permitted for both select and early saver. That is what I expect  and the fcc I currently have will secure me an excellent holiday. Nothing is ruled out of course.

Of course, that's fair.  Just to be even more positive for a moment, if demand becomes "soft" and P&O have a larger cabin pool to sell, with the two larger ships, a reduction in price is possible (plus an excellent post pandemic holiday)😀.

 

However, what I would say to both Selbourne and yourself is that the current trend has been towards being less generous, when it comes to flexibilities around terms of cancellation and transfer.  Also, like many large companies, they have responded pretty slowly, if at all, to the adverse customer feedback that has been received about these matters.

 

Usually if a reassurance can be offered then a company will do so (ie. guaranteed long term flexibility on a FCC).  The fact that they are not doing so leaves open the possibility of there being a good reason why.  However, hopefully this remains a case of incompetence, as opposed to reading correctly in between the lines.

[terrierjohn]

57 minutes ago, Dermotsgirl said:

I would say the longer this situation goes on, the less likely it is  that  the planned itineraries will suddenly pop back into place.  If we get into the new year and  we're getting to a point where the shutdown is approaching  a year, I personally believe that a short term 'pause' strategy will be acceptable to less and less passengers 

I imagine that by then those needing their money, or those not keen on cruising with covid restrictions, will have already requested a refund.  Leaving only those who really desire to take a cruise holiday as soon as it's available.  So I imagine they will remain happy with short term pauses.

 

[terrierjohn]

44 minutes ago, Britboys said:

But not necessarily for the smaller ships...

Touche.

[tring]

3 hours ago, Britboys said:

They will undoubtedly get some CMV customers but not sure it will be that many. Apart from the fact that the two products are now very different, the big draw for many CMV pax was the local departures from the like of Liverpool, Newcastle, Dundee, Hull and Plymouth. Some, maybe many, of those pax may not want the journey down to Southampton to get on a much larger or more expensive ship.

 

Molecrochip has said that Carnival would not need to keep to Southampton if they acquired CMV.  We were thinking perhaps that meant they have a sole port agreement in their Southampton port deal for their other brands.  Other turn around ports would make a big difference, but still need some decent itineraries for many people and I am not sure Carnival would keep to anything like the sort CMV have offered.  The run of the mill itineraries are the ones which went particularly cheap, though I do not see cheap continuing for any holidays after all this. The outlook for cruising has diminished even over the last couple of weeks though, so lack of rumours could well mean lack of interest at any price.  It is more likely Carnival will just get rid of Aurora and Arcadia as we all expect, and just carry on along the same business model.  We will use P&O occasionally, but itineraries are no good to us for most cruises, particularly our more far flung jaunts to less visited places and prolonged stays/tours at embarkation/disembarkation ports.  Just hope we get to go on Aurora next September though as that P&O itinerary for that is good and we have a good price for a balcony cabin, which we would want on a ships as big as Aurora (she is very big for us).  

 

I have seen mention of a possibilty of the CMV brand being resurrected from a source I would have expected to have some reliability, but I am sure a lot is being said and no one really knows what discussions the administrators are in.  TBH I think my main thought is a wish to not have extra competition for Fred, so he is more likely to keep going.  We are becoming a bit tired of loosing cruise companies we have used previously.    

Edited August 12, 2020 by tring

[Britboys]

44 minutes ago, tring said:

 

Molecrochip has said that Carnival would not need to keep to Southampton if they acquired CMV.  We were thinking perhaps that meant they have a sole port agreement in their Southampton port deal for their other brands.  Other turn around ports would make a big difference, but still need some decent itineraries for many people and I am not sure Carnival would keep to anything like the sort CMV have offered.  The run of the mill itineraries are the ones which went particularly cheap, though I do not see cheap continuing for any holidays after all this. The outlook for cruising has diminished even over the last couple of weeks though, so lack of rumours could well mean lack of interest at any price.  It is more likely Carnival will just get rid of Aurora and Arcadia as we all expect, and just carry on along the same business model.  We will use P&O occasionally, but itineraries are no good to us for most cruises, particularly our more far flung jaunts to less visited places and prolonged stays/tours at embarkation/disembarkation ports.  Just hope we get to go on Aurora next September though as that P&O itinerary for that is good and we have a good price for a balcony cabin, which we would want on a ships as big as Aurora (she is very big for us).  

 

I have seen mention of a possibilty of the CMV brand being resurrected from a source I would have expected to have some reliability, but I am sure a lot is being said and no one really knows what discussions the administrators are in.  TBH I think my main thought is a wish to not have extra competition for Fred, so he is more likely to keep going.  We are becoming a bit tired of loosing cruise companies we have used previously.    

I would love to see CMV rise from the ashes to provide some reasonably-priced competition for Fred. P&O's smaller ships may well be safe for a few more years yet but I have no confidence in Carnival keeping them beyond 2022 when the second Gala/XL class ship arrives. I certainly do want Fred to survive though.  If Fred's only real competition is from Saga, their prices will become far too high - like the recent 2022 cruises they have advertised. I guess I want it all really 😀.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Britboys

[Selbourne]

1 hour ago, No pager thank you said:

Of course, that's fair.  Just to be even more positive for a moment, if demand becomes "soft" and P&O have a larger cabin pool to sell, with the two larger ships, a reduction in price is possible (plus an excellent post pandemic holiday)😀.

 

However, what I would say to both Selbourne and yourself is that the current trend has been towards being less generous, when it comes to flexibilities around terms of cancellation and transfer.  Also, like many large companies, they have responded pretty slowly, if at all, to the adverse customer feedback that has been received about these matters.

 

Usually if a reassurance can be offered then a company will do so (ie. guaranteed long term flexibility on a FCC).  The fact that they are not doing so leaves open the possibility of there being a good reason why.  However, hopefully this remains a case of incompetence, as opposed to reading correctly in between the lines.

I think they would be on a very sticky wicket to issue FCC based upon published conditions and then further restrict those conditions at a later date. They have in fact relaxed the conditions rather than tighten them. Of course, the rules may change for FCC issued in the future, but if that happens then I doubt it would be retrospective. They would be daft to do that, as filling all their new (much enlarged) capacity over the next few years will be challenging  enough (as you alluded to in your first paragraph).
 

I think your thinking might be influenced by the example you gave earlier of a TA, but that was nothing to do with P&O and is more the sign of a poor TA worth avoiding (I avoid them all, but that’s a personal decision based on the paltry discounts not being worth the risk of adding a middle man IMO). Even though I chose a cash refund rather than FCC, I think P&O has been quite flexible with the latter. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Selbourne

[Manx buoy]

3 hours ago, Dermotsgirl said:

Yes, could be that they are hoping for a rolling stash of readies to pay the refunds.  However, I won't be playing that game. I'll most likely lose my deposit  rather than pay them more money at this point. 

We’re clear now till 6/11 for Ventura’s second 35 nighter which is allegedly sold out I’m thinking theyll announce its cancelled before the due date like they have with the other 2 longer cruises if not it’s only £100 deposit so will transfer it to one later on and see how things progress but still can’t see much happening before March/April time if even by then

[Selbourne]

3 hours ago, tring said:

 

We had been contacted and had to reply with an agreement to stay on the database, so I think that is active agreement.  It should be possible to get that by email now and assume the administrators would be allowed to contact us, but as you say maybe depends on the reason for contact.  Whatever, the administrators will be looking to maximise what they can get.

I agree with your last comment, but providing consent to be on a database does not, in itself, allow a company to sell your personalised data to a third party. That requires specific consent. Selling such data to third parties was one of the primary reasons that several organisations received multi million pound fines a few years ago and helped justify the creation of the new GDPR legislation. The legislation is extremely complicated though and it amazes me to this day how many companies have misinterpreted it or just not grasped it, in spite of the punitive fines for failing to do so.
 

There is a loophole though. Breaches are only investigated when reported by members of the public. Nobody is proactively paid to search for breaches. Given that many companies don’t even understand it, I should imagine that only a fraction of one percent of the general public understand it (why would you if you don’t have to)! On that basis, there will be unreported breaches left right and centre 😂 

 

[Chrisdriving]

1 hour ago, Manx buoy said:

We’re clear now till 6/11 for Ventura’s second 35 nighter which is allegedly sold out I’m thinking theyll announce its cancelled before the due date like they have with the other 2 longer cruises if not it’s only £100 deposit so will transfer it to one later on and see how things progress but still can’t see much happening before March/April time if even by then

That one has been cancelled so i have just been told by a friend booked on it.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Chrisdriving

[Manx buoy]

1 hour ago, Chrisdriving said:

That one has been cancelled so i have just been told by a friend booked on it.

The February 35 nighter first I’ve heard of it cancelled

[wowzz]

Both the January and February 35 fighters are no longer available to book, but not yet cancelled. 

The cruises are in some sort of purgatory! 

[Chrisdriving]

No idea, here’s the txt he sent he has heard from somewhere.

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Chrisdriving

[Manx buoy]

1 hour ago, Chrisdriving said:

No idea, here’s the txt he sent he has heard from somewhere.

 

 

 

Sounds like Karen of FB has been talking to him😂 loads on there can’t understand plain English and think everything’s cancelled🤷‍♂️

[ann141]

As far as I am aware (and have read) the two 35 night cruises on Ventura in Jan and Feb 2021 have not been included in the list of cancellations although I can understand that P and O statement is a bit misleading particularly as the 2 cruises are'nt showing as available to book.The wording of the statement says 'selected' longer cruises have been cancelled and then goes on to say that these are the cruise on Aurora and all sections of Arcadias World cruise Jan- March 2021.I think some people have taken that to mean all long cruises between Jan and March 2021.I suspect Ventura's cruises in Jan and Feb will be cancelled in the near future but am pretty sure they have'nt been cancelled at the moment

[pete14]

2 hours ago, Chrisdriving said:

No idea, here’s the txt he sent he has heard from somewhere.

 

 

 

The P&O website lists Ventura cruises now cancelled as N004 to N035 inclusive. N103 does not appear on that list. 

[Dermotsgirl]

If you search N101 and N103 on P&Os website, they are both still there, but showing as sold out.

 

It’s  a bit odd that these long cruises are ‘sold out’, at a time when long cruises are not an attractive proposition, whereas shorter cruises still have  availability and are on sale.

 

It could be that the 35 night cruises have reached a capacity required for an attempt at social distancing- but again, a bit of a coincidence  that it’s just those 2  cruises.
 

I suspect that this is a preliminary action before  cancellation - but it doesn’t seem like transparent action by P&O, and the messing around just further frustrates the worried passengers 

[wowzz]

3 minutes ago, Dermotsgirl said:

If you search N101 and N103 on P&Os website, they are both still there, but showing as sold out.

 

It’s  a bit odd that these long cruises are ‘sold out’, at a time when long cruises are not an attractive proposition, whereas shorter cruises still have  availability and are on sale.

 

It could be that the 35 night cruises have reached a capacity required for an attempt at social distancing- but again, a bit of a coincidence  that it’s just those 2  cruises.
 

I suspect that this is a preliminary action before  cancellation - but it doesn’t seem like transparent action by P&O, and the messing around just further frustrates the worried passengers 

I am on the roll call on another social media forum for the January cruise. I moved the deposit to a later cruise some time ago, and many others have done the same. There is no way the cruise is sold out .

[terrierjohn]

8 minutes ago, Dermotsgirl said:

If you search N101 and N103 on P&Os website, they are both still there, but showing as sold out.

 

It’s  a bit odd that these long cruises are ‘sold out’, at a time when long cruises are not an attractive proposition, whereas shorter cruises still have  availability and are on sale.

 

It could be that the 35 night cruises have reached a capacity required for an attempt at social distancing- but again, a bit of a coincidence  that it’s just those 2  cruises.
 

I suspect that this is a preliminary action before  cancellation - but it doesn’t seem like transparent action by P&O, and the messing around just further frustrates the worried passengers 

 

3 minutes ago, wowzz said:

I am on the roll call on another social media forum for the January cruise. I moved the deposit to a later cruise some time ago, and many others have done the same. There is no way the cruise is sold out .

I am guessing that P&O are still hopeful that they might be able to salvage some of their Caribbean fly cruise season if circumstances permit.  If so then I would also expect the round trip cruises to go ahead as well.

It may well be a forlorn hope but you cannot blame them for clinging on until the very last minute before admitting defeat.

[Dermotsgirl]

8 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

 

I am guessing that P&O are still hopeful that they might be able to salvage some of their Caribbean fly cruise season if circumstances permit.  If so then I would also expect the round trip cruises to go ahead as well.

It may well be a forlorn hope but you cannot blame them for clinging on until the very last minute before admitting defeat.

This situation isn’t P&Os fault, but it’s not the fault of the passengers either. As such, I would have hoped that P&O would be dealing with this in a way that wasn’t solely focussed on their own interests. 

 

i can’t see how the 35 night cruises can go ahead. Multiple ports of entry, who will have their own exacting requirements. Having had experience of long cruises at this time of year, loads of the passengers will be coughing their heads off with a common cold, which  will be suspected as  Covid like symptoms. That ship wouldn’t be allowed in to any port.

 

Not to mention, what if there actually is a COVID outbreak, so far from home 
 

 

[No pager thank you]

31 minutes ago, wowzz said:

I am on the roll call on another social media forum for the January cruise. I moved the deposit to a later cruise some time ago, and many others have done the same. There is no way the cruise is sold out .

I agree that those cruises appear unlikely to sail unfortunately.  One benefit of having the cruises sold out, when they are not, is to prevent customers making "full payment tactical bookings" to collect additional FCC - like some reports occurred with Oceana when news of her departure was in the offing, but not confirmed.

 

Previously, the rumour was the Azura and Britannia would commence a restart with Caribbean cruises, which now appears less likely.  The discussion now is around Ventura being the guinea pig, followed by Iona in December, with Aurora and Arcadia held back until April.  This is all based on thinking pre Autumn second wave etc.

 

Does this (as a guess) mean that the situation with Ventura might be different than with the others i.e. her 35 day cruises will go, but will be replaced by new itineraries, which are perceived as "Covid-19" safe?  This will allow her to have a full Winter season starting in November.  If this is close to true then it could it explain why P&O are being coy - as they do not have the alternative strategy fixed yet?

 

One flaw with my guess is why the other shorter cruises on Arcadia and Aurora before the Worldie/South American adventure etc have yet to be cancelled. 

 

Guess we will find out on Tuesday at 10...

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by No pager thank you
Typo

[tring]

15 hours ago, Selbourne said:

I agree with your last comment, but providing consent to be on a database does not, in itself, allow a company to sell your personalised data to a third party. That requires specific consent. Selling such data to third parties was one of the primary reasons that several organisations received multi million pound fines a few years ago and helped justify the creation of the new GDPR legislation. The legislation is extremely complicated though and it amazes me to this day how many companies have misinterpreted it or just not grasped it, in spite of the punitive fines for failing to do so.
 

There is a loophole though. Breaches are only investigated when reported by members of the public. Nobody is proactively paid to search for breaches. Given that many companies don’t even understand it, I should imagine that only a fraction of one percent of the general public understand it (why would you if you don’t have to)! On that basis, there will be unreported breaches left right and centre 😂 

 

 

I was referring to us being asked if we were happy to remain on the data base that was to be sold (to Lord Sterling in the first example), so quite clear what we were giving consent for.  Like others we were very happy to do that as we wanted info about any new similar venture and I also think most current CMV pax would be happy to have their details forwarded as well, but yes they should be given a choice.  You can always ask to be removed  if not happy with a new company.  No mention of the purchaser then passing on to someone else, nor was that intended or done.  You also said the times mentioned pre dated the law change, so perhaps a change of wording would be needed.

 

As far as I know CMV have not been broken up as yet, but all the cruises have been cancelled.  If the previous directors (or one of them) take over, having got rid of their debts, I would not want to look at them as principle.  That was reported as happened to their German arm in the past.