Do you feel guilty cruising on environmental grounds?

[ilikeanswers]

55 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

I just don't buy into the limits of growth which you seem to think is necessary.  Resource scarcity and doom have been vogue for a long time and the predictions so far haven't come true.  

 

I'm not sure the Spanish agree it hasn't come true otherwise why would they need to illegally fish in West Africa? 

 

Quote

You make the assumption that materials and technology are static.  The floors in my house are all made out of bamboo.  Ikea is already making furniture this way.  This is way more scalable and sustainable than Baltic birch.  

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/search/products/?q=bamboo

 

And to have bamboo we will have to clear land to make plantations. You seem to think it is possible to gain without any loss. We could create the greatest supply of bamboo but that would come in lieu of biodiversity, farmland or even land for building houses on. In order to have continual growth you have to take something away. If you think the gains are worth the losses than have all the $50 cabinets you like but it is important to recognise what needs to be lost in order to grow so we can prepare for a future without whatever needs to be lost. Asking people to hope for some miracle or invention to save them doesn't help the population. It either leaves them in limbo, forces them to migrate or leads to illegal activity like stealing fish. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by ilikeanswers

[ilikeanswers]

44 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

You miss the point that shirts would be more available to all.  You view the world as a static, zero sum game.  I see it differently and think Bangladeshis aren't doomed to being poor and serve the "rich world" as a permanent underclass.  

 

I don't think they will be static. Most likely they will migrate and probably end up in those robotic factories in America😂

[navybankerteacher]

35 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I don't think they will be static. Most likely they will migrate and probably end up in those robotic factories in America😂

But wouldn’t it be a shorter trip from Bangladesh to Australia than to the US?

[ilikeanswers]

32 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

But wouldn’t it be a shorter trip from Bangladesh to Australia than to the US?

 

They would following the economic opportunities so unless Australia starts robotic factories looks like it will be to the USA😜

[2wheelin]

5 hours ago, SelectSys said:

 

Perhaps a freer society will do this better.  Personally I am willing to accept environmental change if people are lifted out of poverty and have access to a healthier life.

Unless they need some of your water to make a living.

[SelectSys]

3 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I'm not sure the Spanish agree it hasn't come true otherwise why would they need to illegally fish in West AfricaAnd to have bamboo we will have to clear land to make plantations. You seem to think it is possible to gain without any loss. We could create the greatest supply of bamboo but that would come in lieu of biodiversity, farmland or even land for building houses on. In order to have continual growth you have to take something away. If you think the gains are worth the losses than have all the $50 cabinets you like but it is important to recognise what needs to be lost in order to grow so we can prepare for a future without whatever needs to be lost. Asking people to hope for some miracle or invention to save them doesn't help the population. It either leaves them in limbo, forces them to migrate or leads to illegal activity like stealing fish. 

 

I want people to have a portion of what we have and nothing I suggest is impossible.   

 

You through barriers up for everything and seem doom and problems everywhere.  I see opportunities.  Is everything perfect no.  Life is about tradeoffs.  Where you want to leave people in poverty and I want to help them.

 

The good news, depending on perspective, is that the Europeans are dying out from a failure to reproduce and will be consuming less and less resources going forward.  That will take care of at least some of your problem of consumption by the "rich world"

3 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I don't think they will be static. Most likely they will migrate and probably end up in those robotic factories in America😂

 

As you know I was referring to technological development, but if you like to make jokes that is fine too.  The cell phone 75 years ago was only in comic books and much more recently the idea for a practical electric car deemed impossible.

 

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

But wouldn’t it be a shorter trip from Bangladesh to Australia than to the US?

 

Not likely to be embraced with warm arms in Australia

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/02/australias-offshore-asylum-centres-have-been-a-cruel-disaster-they-must-not-be-replicated-by-the-uk

 

The new US remain in Mexico program is based on standard Australian practice.

 

2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

They would following the economic opportunities so unless Australia starts robotic factories looks like it will be to the USA😜

 

You know that Australia doesn't permit low skill permanent immigrants.  Most of Australia's factories are probably mostly closed and moved to other places.  I actually once owned a Mitsubishi car made in Australia that was imported to the US.  I will bet that plant is long gone.

 

1 hour ago, 2wheelin said:

Unless they need some of your water to make a living.

 

How does this make sense?  Are you talking about climate change?  For San Diego, we recently built a large water desalination plant on the Pacific to secure our local water supplies.  

[ilikeanswers]

3 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

You through barriers up for everything and seem doom and problems everywhere.  I see opportunities.  Is everything perfect no.  Life is about tradeoffs.  Where you want to leave people in poverty and I want to help them.

 

You are really missing the point. It is not about want wanting people to live in poverty but it is about acknowledging that the only solution sometimes is changing our own behaviour. I have seen a lot of these quick fix miracle solutions that you keep throwing up come and go over the years and almost always they end up causing more problems than they are suppose to solve (look at recycling the latest quick fix solution to blow up in our face 🙄). I think you ideas are utopian and ignore the fundamental fact that in the end it is us that needs to change. We have the resources and technology to bring everyone out of poverty but instead we focus our resources on how we can continue to produce $1 T Shirts to throw out after one use. We don't need quick fix miracles we just need to reprioritise. 

 

3 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

As you know I was referring to technological development, but if you like to make jokes that is fine too.  

 

The joke was also a bit of point. Factories tend to employ migrants so it wouldn't surprise if a whole industry collapses those people will probably be looking around at whose hiring

 

As for Australia's immigration issues that needs a whole lot more time and space to properly discuss and break down. It is not something easily explained in 124 characters. How about we leave that for separate thread 😂. 

[sverigecruiser]

6 hours ago, SelectSys said:

 

The good news, depending on perspective, is that the Europeans are dying out from a failure to reproduce and will be consuming less and less resources going forward.  That will take care of at least some of your problem of consumption by the "rich world"

 

 

Do you know why the Europeans fall to reproduce? The main reason is that too many choose career and money instead of reproduction. I live in a free country so here it's okay to make that choice. It's probably good for the environment but maybe not good for the society.  

[2wheelin]

8 hours ago, SelectSys said:

How does this make sense?  Are you talking about climate change?  For San Diego, we recently built a large water desalination plant on the Pacific to secure our local water supplies.  

Umm. You are the one who complained your water was rationed so that farmers could make a living (with you lawn watering supply)

[Toofarfromthesea]

21 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I think you mean Virtue signaling.  

 

Yup, d@mned autocorrect.

[Toofarfromthesea]

20 hours ago, cruizergal70 said:

Major eyeroll at using the phras "virtue signalling." Everyone has their opinions and ideas (i.e. their virtues). Any viewpoint is, in essence, virtue signalling. So, you're doing it also.

 

You don't understand the term.  I'll give you a practical example from cruising.  Virtue signalling is pointing out and decrying all of the bad environmental impacts of cruising while - and here comes the important part - continuing to cruise.  Signalling about how enlightened and concerned one is about something but not letting that affect one's actions.

[ColeThornton]

34 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

You don't understand the term.  I'll give you a practical example from cruising.  Virtue signalling is pointing out and decrying all of the bad environmental impacts of cruising while - and here comes the important part - continuing to cruise.  Signalling about how enlightened and concerned one is about something but not letting that affect one's actions.

 

That sounds more like the definition of being a hypocrite. 

[Mary229]

35 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

You don't understand the term.  I'll give you a practical example from cruising.  Virtue signalling is pointing out and decrying all of the bad environmental impacts of cruising while - and here comes the important part - continuing to cruise.  Signalling about how enlightened and concerned one is about something but not letting that affect one's actions.

Or people who get really carried away and talk about how they go out into a blizzard to compost their organically grown, home roasted, ground with a mortar and pestle coffee grounds😉

[SelectSys]

12 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

You are really missing the point. It is not about want wanting people to live in poverty but it is about acknowledging that the only solution sometimes is changing our own behaviour. I have seen a lot of these quick fix miracle solutions that you keep throwing up come and go over the years and almost always they end up causing more problems than they are suppose to solve (look at recycling the latest quick fix solution to blow up in our face 🙄). I think you ideas are utopian and ignore the fundamental fact that in the end it is us that needs to change. We have the resources and technology to bring everyone out of poverty but instead we focus our resources on how we can continue to produce $1 T Shirts to throw out after one use. We don't need quick fix miracles we just need to reprioritise. 

 

 

The joke was also a bit of point. Factories tend to employ migrants so it wouldn't surprise if a whole industry collapses those people will probably be looking around at whose hiring

 

You are missing the point.  Many things working together make a change.  None of these are quick fix.  The first being improving the educational opportunities to more people.  

 

You are not the first person to think that I am overly optimistic although I don't really view myself as utopian.  This is probably because as an engineer I get paid to create and/or improve solutions.  Fortunately, I came along at a very magic time in the power electronics and computer engineering industry and have seen some pretty amazing things - almost miraculous from a previous generation's perspective.  Perhaps this contributes to my optimism and the human capacity to succeed. 

 

Actually factories tend to go offshore rather than importing cheap labor.  The previous shirt example between the US and Bangladesh should indicate why.  

 

5 hours ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

Do you know why the Europeans fall to reproduce? The main reason is that too many choose career and money instead of reproduction. I live in a free country so here it's okay to make that choice. It's probably good for the environment but maybe not good for the society.  

 

Of course.  The same thing is happening in the US except that immigration (legal and otherwise) is causing our population to continue to grow.  

 

3 hours ago, 2wheelin said:

Umm. You are the one who complained your water was rationed so that farmers could make a living (with you lawn watering supply)

 

Got it.  Yes, many farmers in CA get an outsized portion of the water at rates subsidized by the rest of us.

https://www.ewg.org/research/california-water-subsidies#:~:text=At a time when California,subsidies to each of more

 

Many people in CA have replaced their lawn.  I still have a small lawn in my backyard.

[sverigecruiser]

2 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

 

Of course.  The same thing is happening in the US except that immigration (legal and otherwise) is causing our population to continue to grow.  

 

Our population is growing too because of immigration. 

[SteveH2508]

6 hours ago, Mary229 said:

Or people who get really carried away and talk about how they go out into a blizzard to compost their organically grown, home roasted, ground with a mortar and pestle coffee grounds😉

That's 'dumb as a bunch of rocks' signalling. Put the grounds in a bag and wait for the blizzard to pass.

 

Seriously though, there are many issues with all of this environmental, recycling, electric cars etc. etc..

 

However, it comes to one inescapable thing: there are too many people on the planet (and it is getting worse by the day). 

[sfaaa]

1 hour ago, SteveH2508 said:

 

However, it comes to one inescapable thing: there are too many people on the planet (and it is getting worse by the day). 

I am totally convinced that humans will eventually destroy this planet. It is not a question of If but When. The signs are all around us.

[Toofarfromthesea]

10 hours ago, ColeThornton said:

 

That sounds more like the definition of being a hypocrite. 

 

Virtue signalling IS a form of hypocrisy.  But there are plenty of forms of hypocrisy that are not virtue signalling.

[Mary229]

20 hours ago, SteveH2508 said:

That's 'dumb as a bunch of rocks' signalling. Put the grounds in a bag and wait for the blizzard to pass.

 

Seriously though, there are many issues with all of this environmental, recycling, electric cars etc. etc..

 

However, it comes to one inescapable thing: there are too many people on the planet (and it is getting worse by the day). 

The reality is no one is volunteering to be the one to die or not be born.  

[c-boy]

19 hours ago, sfaaa said:

I am totally convinced that humans will eventually destroy this planet. It is not a question of If but When. The signs are all around us.

humans may have been created on this planet but; we weren't to stay here.  I believe when we are standing at the precipice we can/will change. What a say we get off this planet.

Edited October 29, 2020 by c-boy

[SelectSys]

On 10/28/2020 at 4:42 PM, SteveH2508 said:

However, it comes to one inescapable thing: there are too many people on the planet (and it is getting worse by the day). 

 

Perhaps on an emotional basis, but not so far on an objective basis. So far, more people are living longer and in better health than ever since humanity emerged at the same time our population has never been higher. 

 

The current planetary population growth is likely to occur not too far after 2100 if current trends hold true.  Remember that the more developed a place becomes, the cleaner it becomes and family sizes shrink dramatically.  The fastest way to get the population growth slowed down world wide is to improve the rate of African development which is currently expected to account for almost 40% of the world's population in 2100

https://www.populationpyramid.net/world/2100/

 

https://www.populationpyramid.net/africa/2100/

 

On 10/28/2020 at 5:57 PM, sfaaa said:

I am totally convinced that humans will eventually destroy this planet. It is not a question of If but When. The signs are all around us.

 

It really depends on what you mean by destroy.  Humans can change the world, but not really destroy it.  A large meteor can and has previously changed the earth far more than human's have done to date.  However, to actually destroy the earth like in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" is a wee bit beyond human capabilities.

 

So far the earth has experienced 5 mass extinction events:

https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/mass-extinctions

"Congratulations, you’re part of the 1 percent. That is, the 1 percent of species on Earth not yet extinct: For the last 3.5 billion or so years, about 99 percent of the estimated 4 billion species that ever evolved are no longer around."

 

Bottom line - the earth will exist long after our species has had it's run. 

 

6 hours ago, c-boy said:

humans may have been created on this planet but; we weren't to stay here.  I believe when we are standing at the precipice we can/will change. What a say we get off this planet.

 

Elon Musk wants to go to Mars to provide this opportunity for 1 million or more people. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/elon-musk-mars-spacex-starship-colony-b1179088.html

 

Jeff Bezos wants to create orbiting space stations providing housing for the super rich like in the Sci-Fi movie Elysium. 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1535108/  

[c-boy]

12 hours ago, SelectSys said:

19 hours ago, c-boy said:

humans may have been created on this planet but; we weren't to stay here.  I believe when we are standing at the precipice we can/will change. What a say we get off this planet.

 

Elon Musk wants to go to Mars to provide this opportunity for 1 million or more people. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/elon-musk-mars-spacex-starship-colony-b1179088.html

 

Jeff Bezos wants to create orbiting space stations providing housing for the super rich like in the Sci-Fi movie Elysium. 

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1535108/  

I had to patch my post" humans may have been created on this planet but; we weren't meant to stay here.  I believe when we are standing at the precipice we can/will change. What do ya say we get off this planet."

 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by c-boy

[Keksie]

To answer the original question - not in the slightest.  

[CogitoErgoZoom]

I'm kind of surprised at the sheer number of short-sighted head-in-the-sand respondents here.  Not to slight anyone for their ignorance, but I would expect more here to show a little more concern for the locations they claim to love to visit.  C'est la vie.

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, NIATPAC29 said:

THATS 100% TOTAL BS

 

No need to shout, we can have a civil debate if you wish to elaborate on your points 😉