Overnight in Jerusalem or Istanbul?

[cruisemom42]

9 hours ago, Miaminice said:

We wrote a travelogue about our Holy Land Cruise with many pics... 

maybe it gives you an idea... enjoy.

 

I loved reading your review. It was like revisiting so many old friends (ports) through someone else's eyes. And even better because Silhouette is one of my favorite ships. 

 

I felt the same way about the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. There is a lot to take in there. Even after two visits (separate trips) I would like to see it again.

 

Also, there is something about the sun in the fall in the Med that just makes the golden stones of Jerusalem glow. And the deep blue skies make the white houses stand out in places like Mykonos. Wish I was going back sometime soon!

 

[dani negreanu]

14 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

Also, there is something about the sun in the fall in the Med

 

I think also that there is a very special light in Venice....

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, dani negreanu said:

 

I think also that there is a very special light in Venice....

 

Definitely agree. It's harder to define -- I think it's partly the humidity in the air but also the sun on the green-blue water in the lagoon and the canals. It's very diffuse.

 

[cantstopingcruising]

3 hours ago, Denny01 said:

Ahh Israel! So important to all of the 3 great monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity, Islam. Where so many great civilizations traipsed across to invade each other: Assyrian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Alexander, Rome, then the Islamic armies followed by the Crusaders, the Ottomans and then the British. Poor Israel and Judaea were kind of like a second thought to them. 

 

Sites of the some of the earliest Homo species leaving Africa are located there.

 

Have you read Mitchner’s The Source? 

 

OK, yeah a good cruise stop and great to also enjoy modern Israel and all it offers. I was lucky when I visited. I had an Israeli AF pilot buddy who I met up when my Carrier pulled in and he showed me what it was to live in Israel. What was important to them.

 

Need to go back again... Never enough time!!

 

Den

I read The Source the first time I went to Israel.....in the 60's.

 

What hit me, reading through the  different ages, is that we all are here such a short time, in the grand scheme of things.

 

So, let's enjoy!

[Bruin Steve]

19 minutes ago, cantstopingcruising said:

I read The Source the first time I went to Israel.....in the 60's.

 

What hit me, reading through the  different ages, is that we all are here such a short time, in the grand scheme of things.

 

So, let's enjoy!

When I talked about my tour out of Haifa, note that I mentioned going to Megiddo...

Megiddo is the inspiration for the novel "The Source"...It is an archaeological site with 26 layers of different civilizations all one on top of the other...

...and the site is the supposed site of the last battle on earth--Armageddon...In Hebrew, "Har Megiddo" is Mount Megiddo, corrupted in translation to "Armageddon"...

[Denny01]

4 hours ago, dani negreanu said:

 

Israeli fighter pilots are one of the best there is 😉 La creme de la creme 👍

They’re great, but not quite as great as US Navy Fighter Pilots!! And trust me, I’m a unbiased judge! And something we’ll never have to compare.  

 

Den

Edited March 1, 2021 by Denny01

[cantstopingcruising]

50 minutes ago, Bruin Steve said:

When I talked about my tour out of Haifa, note that I mentioned going to Megiddo...

Megiddo is the inspiration for the novel "The Source"...It is an archaeological site with 26 layers of different civilizations all one on top of the other...

...and the site is the supposed site of the last battle on earth--Armageddon...In Hebrew, "Har Megiddo" is Mount Megiddo, corrupted in translation to "Armageddon"...

I remember when we had a tour under The Wall, the guide explained about the layers and I could never grasp the concept. I guess living in the New World, it is something beyond our (my) imagination!

 

When we went to the Church of the Holy Sepulcre, I was blown away by the fact that people lived on the roof of the church. That was many years ago. I don't know if they still do.

 

We were scheduled to take the Israel cruise last Oct, which of course was cancelled. If we get to go to Israel again, I would rather fly and stay there a few weeks.

 

 

[JeanieC,Aston]

It’s 10 years since my last cruise to visit Israel,we docked in Ashdod.

We did the Jerusalem & Bethlehem trip from the ship (Thomson Cruises) I can say it was the best excursion from a ship I have ever done in over 70 cruises.

With every trip the most important part is the guide,we had a 26 yr old very good guide who gave his opinions on the history...religious and political without rancour.

Some things he agreed with,some he didn’t,,a bit like young ones the world over.

 

It was 100 deg that day and everyone was wilting so he took us away from the main convoy of coaches,,,,,starting at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre then walking DOWN the Way of the Cross to the Wailing Wall,,whilst all the other coach parties walked UP,all absolutely gasping.

As I said ‘a good guide’.

Remember too,if you book a car and guide yourself,,,if you go from Jerusalem into Bethlehem,,Unless the rules have changed, in Bethlehem you need to change guides.

Jewish guides are not allowed to guide in the PA,,,and visa versa.

 

You really need to go into Bethlehem if you go to Jerusalem.

A shame to miss it,even if it’s just to experience life on the other side of the wall...and to visit the Church of the Nativity and the smallest church entry door you’ve ever been through.

Edited March 1, 2021 by JeanieC,Aston

[morechances]

A couple of years ago I found a small tour that did an overnight in Jerusalem. It was the right decision for me. 

As others have said, the distance is not bad, but the traffic can be a killer.

Plus, you get to spend the evening in Jerusalem. 

Find a nice restaurant and relax. 

[lyndarra]

I have been to Jerusalem once. Istanbul twice. I could easily go back to Istanbul. A lot to see and do there as well as experience the lifestyle and culture. Jerusalem, not so much.

[LGW59]

4 minutes ago, lyndarra said:

I have been to Jerusalem once. Istanbul twice. I could easily go back to Istanbul. A lot to see and do there as well as experience the lifestyle and culture. Jerusalem, not so much.

While I have not been to either, though I can see there is lots to do in Istanbul, but goodness, "Jerusalem, not so much".  Obviously an opinion but from what I see and have heard, looks like there is tons to do in Jerusalem, at least I hope so as that is the two day we decided on.  🙂

Edited March 13, 2021 by LGW59

[Redtravel]

Been to both on land and on a cruise. Both are very interesting places. Lots of history in both places.  Both are worth seeing. For best use of time, use a guide. In Israel, we hired a guide that met us in Ashdod and later in Haifa.  We were out with the guide for  3 full days and 2 evenings.  We chose where to go and had the guide and driver arrange the stops.  We went back to the ship each night.  Ports are not far from places you want to visit unless you want to go way south to Elat.  Having previously stayed in Israel on a land tour, we didn’t do much at night.  In Israel Friday night and Saturday many places stop for Shabbat. Also, safety is uncertain. 
Istanbul port is close to town. There is lots to see very close to the ship.  Everything is open everyday. Lots of activity day and night.  Felt comfortable in Istanbul. Shopping is a kick.   Would like to go back.

[LGW59]

10 minutes ago, Redtravel said:

Been to both on land and on a cruise. Both are very interesting places. Lots of history in both places.  Both are worth seeing. For best use of time, use a guide. In Israel, we hired a guide that met us in Ashdod and later in Haifa.  We were out with the guide for  3 full days and 2 evenings.  We chose where to go and had the guide and driver arrange the stops.  We went back to the ship each night.  Ports are not far from places you want to visit unless you want to go way south to Elat.  Having previously stayed in Israel on a land tour, we didn’t do much at night.  In Israel Friday night and Saturday many places stop for Shabbat. Also, safety is uncertain. 
Istanbul port is close to town. There is lots to see very close to the ship.  Everything is open everyday. Lots of activity day and night.  Felt comfortable in Istanbul. Shopping is a kick.   Would like to go back.

Thanks very much for this.  We plan to hire a private driver (we hope) as this is what we have done on land trips in many European countries.  I think it even more important with limited time visiting such important historical locations in order to maximize the time.  While we won't be in Istanbul on this cruise, we do go to Ephesus.  

Edited March 13, 2021 by LGW59

[C-Dragons]

On 3/1/2021 at 5:43 AM, JeanieC,Aston said:

 

You really need to go into Bethlehem if you go to Jerusalem.

A shame to miss it,even if it’s just to experience life on the other side of the wall...and to visit the Church of the Nativity and the smallest church entry door you’ve ever been through.

Yes, I agree!

[LGW59]

4 minutes ago, C-Dragons said:

Yes, I agree!

Will definitely be part of our plan!

[NCHPcruiser]

After giving it a few minutes thought I would go with Jerusalem.  Even with the distance from the port you have much more time in Jerusalem.  Personally I would get a guide for the two days (perhaps with another couple or two from your roll call) who would have someone pick you up at the port.  I would also consider spending the night in Jerusalem which would give you a much better experience.    

 

You really can’t go wrong though, Jerusalem and Istanbul are both great! 

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by NCHPcruiser

[Host Jazzbeau]

What I'm looking forward to in visiting Jerusalem is that Churches are still Churches and Mosques are still Mosques there.  Minority religions still have their sacred sites.  That is not the case in Istanbul.  We felt very opposed there, and it has gotten worse since.

[TFree]

24 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

What I'm looking forward to in visiting Jerusalem is that Churches are still Churches and Mosques are still Mosques there.  Minority religions still have their sacred sites.  That is not the case in Istanbul.  We felt very opposed there, and it has gotten worse since.

@Host Jazzbeau: Beautifully said.  We enjoyed our overnight stop in Istanbul, and our port stop at Kusadasi (Ephesus) a few years ago, and we have visited Jerusalem only on land tours.  But what you say about Istanbul (and Turkey in general) is very true.  We only were there a few years ago, but we have commented that we were glad we went to Turkey when we did, because the situation there is deteriorating.

 

Tom & Judy

[Redtravel]

Ephesus is a must see.  Take a tour or hire private guide.  We went there while touring Turkey on land. Just don’t take a tour that stops at a rug location. While they are somewhat interesting, they are mostly high pressure sales.  They are slick con men. I went saying that I would not buy a rug.  I bought.  It is nice, but way overpriced.  Want a rug, try the markets in Istanbul or Kusadasi.  

[cruisemom42]

15 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

What I'm looking forward to in visiting Jerusalem is that Churches are still Churches and Mosques are still Mosques there.  Minority religions still have their sacred sites.  That is not the case in Istanbul.  We felt very opposed there, and it has gotten worse since.

 

You do realize that this is a practice of all religions since time immemorial? Think of all the pagan temples alone that have been converted into Christian churches -- the Pantheon in Rome, for one, the Temple of Antoninus and Faustina in the Forum for another.  The Hephaistieon and the Parthenon in Athens, the two most prominent Greek temples in the city, were both converted into Christian churches.  And there was a Christian church and a mosque built into the remains of the Temple of Luxor. 

 

Montmartre in Paris was originally called Mons Martis, "Mount of Mars", the church first built there was one of the oldest surviving Christian churches in France, but the site originally had a temple that was dedicated to a Celtic god.

 

And let us not forget the monumental and beautiful Great Mosque of Cordoba that was converted into a cathedral in the 1200s during the reconquest...

 

Even in Jerusalem, the Al-Aqsa mosque and Dome of the Rock are of course built atop the ruins of the Jewish Temple...

 

 

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

45 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

You do realize that this is a practice of all religions since time immemorial?

But what's accepted changes over time.  Slavery was accepted 'since time immemorial,' but not now.  To turn Hagia Sophia and Chora Church into Mosques in the 21st Century is not acceptable.  [To me.]  I will not go back to Turkey.

[Bruin Steve]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

You do realize that this is a practice of all religions since time immemorial? ...

Well...actually not ALL religions...but clearly a pattern among Christians and Islam.

And the situation is Turkey is quite a bit different than most others...

 

What we're specifically talking about here is the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul.  It was originally built as the Eastern Orthodox Cathedral in 537...It was taken over by the Roman Catholics in 1206 and held by them for over 50 years until being returned...Then, with the takeover by the Ottomans in 1453, it was converted into a Mosque...and remained that way until after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.  It was CLOSED in 1931. 

 

The Hagia Sophia was reopened in 1935 AS A MUSEUM...A national treasure and a major tourist attraction where its long and varied heritage was celebrated.

 

And THIS is where things get interesting...and where one must understand what is actually happening in Turkey CURRENTLY.

 

Turkey's great post-Ottoman leader, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, wanted to Westernize Turkey...bring them into the 20th Century, so to speak...He admired Western Democracies and instituted policies to create Democratic style rights--including freedom of religion.  It was important to him that there would be no state established religion and that any Turk should be free to practice any religion. He also pushed things such as Western style dress (and things like burqas and hijabs became rare).  And things remained that way in Turkey for many decades.

 

Unfortunately, in recent years, there has been a major rise in Islamic Fundamentalism throughout the Islamic world...and it has hit Turkey.  With the 2014 return to the position of Prime Minister of Recep Erdogan, the government has become more and more authoritarian...restricting Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press...and limiting the human rights of minority groups--particularly the Kurds and the LGBT communities. The ideals of Kemal Ataturk are only a faint glimmer of the distant past.

 

And, last year, Erdogan decided to "rededicate" the Hagia Sophia as a Mosque...

So, this was NOT a case of a conquering power converting religious sites from the former nation's religion to its own state religion...This is a case of a dictator reinstituting power in a favored religion...over a national museum which, for 90 years had been "owned" by ALL Turks...

 

It is a clear signal of Erdogan's Fascist tendencies and the prejudiced nature of his administration...AND of the growing power of Fundamentalist Islamists in Turkey...It's the Fundamentalists' declaration that democracy and freedom are dead and they are in charge... 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Bruin Steve

[cruisemom42]

16 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

[To me.]  I will not go back to Turkey.

 

Fair enough, you are certainly entitled to make those decisions for yourself. As a long-time traveler (and armchair historian) I try not to become embroiled in politics, religious disputes, etc. IN REGARD to where I travel. I fully recognize others have a different view.

 

If I were to morally object on a number of different grounds that are relatively important to me, my travel destinations would be very limited and I would miss so much of the world.  I am very happy with my decision, for example, to visit Syria on the eve of the Arab Spring despite completely disagreeing with their ruling government's policies and views. And I am so glad that I did. Had I not, I would have missed many glories of that country that have now been destroyed.

 

[cruisemom42]

6 minutes ago, Bruin Steve said:

And, last year, Erdogan decided to "rededicate" the Hagia Sophia as a Mosque...

So, this was NOT a case of a conquering power converting religious sites from the former nation's religion to its own state religion...This is a case of a dictator reinstituting power in a favored religion...over a national museum which, for 90 years had been "owned" by ALL Turks...

 

I'm quite aware of what's happening in Turkey -- you will find several of my comments about it on the appropriate Ports of Call boards here.

 

However, in my book, whenever I have traveled somewhere I find the "real" people -- the ones on the streets and in the shops, just trying to get by -- do not always agree with their leaders' policies and I do not see a real benefit of depriving them of their livelihood -- and also of exposure to westerners who may provide them with a different view of "our" world than the one promulgated by their government/religious authorities.

[Fouremco]

30 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

But what's accepted changes over time.  Slavery was accepted 'since time immemorial,' but not now.  To turn Hagia Sophia and Chora Church into Mosques in the 21st Century is not acceptable.  [To me.]  I will not go back to Turkey.

Hagia Sophia was converted into a mosque in 1453. It was transformed into a museum in 1935 and reestablished as a mosque in 2020. Similarly, other than the period 1945-2020 during which it too was transformed into a museum, the Kariye Mosque (Chora Church) has been a mosque since the early 1500s. Both were converted from Christian churches to Islamic mosques following the fall of Constantinople to the attacking Ottoman forces in 1453. To state that they were turned from churches into mosques in the 21st Century is completely false. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Fouremco