Why Isn't HAL Adding New Ships to Their Fleet

[sunviking90]

29 minutes ago, Roz said:

Agree with @terrydtx. If there was a way to put things like the Dutch Cafe and Tamarind on current ships, and upgrade the entertainment, I would be happy.  

 

I won't sail the Zaandam or Volendam, no matter how attractive the itinerary.  The thought of being stuck on either of those ships for more than 2 weeks is too much to bear. 

 

More and more ports are pushing back on cruise ships,  putting the mega ships at a distinct disadvantage. 

We just finished being stuck on the Volendam for 18 days and after quite a few cruises on larger Princess ships post pandemic as well as the Zuiderdam, we LOVED the friendly small ship feel of the Volendam. The recent refurbishment left the ship feeling fresh, while keeping anll the classic things we love like the huge library and she’s now our favorite. We had only 1200 passengers and it was great! 
We all have different tastes and that’s fine. I’m trying out my first Pinnacle class in January on Koningsdam. I know I’ll miss the wide promenade, but aside from that I may love it. Who knows?

[Heidi13]

9 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

There is some concern that the older HAL ships lack the wow factor...

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2978681-what-holland-america-cruise-ships-could-look-like-in-20-years-ai-generated/#comment-66571446

 

It is not possible to properly refit the old ships, because HAL would not be willing to allow the downtime for a fully refit. The regular drydocks typically last only a week or two. The consequence is that the hot water is not always available on the Noordam. Or, that successive interior redecorations (Volendam) don't harmoniously fit together. 

 

The economic consequence is that HAL ships lose the $$$$ clientele while catering to budget pax.

 

Provided you have deep pockets anything is possible. The primary work completed in drydocks is the required regulatory/Class inspections and bottom coatings. This is what determines the length of time on the blocks. Any hotel work is completed based on the time available and capital funding available.

 

Having a ship sitting on the blocks in drydock is expensive, which is why only required inspections/work is completed on the blocks. Other work can be completed at a wet dock.

 

With respect to refitting older tonnage, the primary cost drivers are steelwork. Initially additional inspections, then as ships age, the huge cost of replacing steel. In a number of drydockings on older tonnage, I have conducted ultra-sonic testing of the steel thickness on every single hull plate, with 1 or 2 readings per plate, depending on position. When I got a low reading, we hag to call for an x-ray of the plate to determine if it was a steel defect or corrosion. The hull plating is actually quite simple compared to the internal structure, which can require crawling through tanks and void spaces.

 

Older tonnage often have significant asbestos content, which requires significant escalation of costs to prepare the area for steel replacement.

 

Therefore, before determining they will keep a ship over 15 - 20 yrs they must have a handle on the potential structural costs before estimating the cost of any hotel upgrades, which are minimal expenses compared to structural costs.

[kazu]

1 hour ago, terrydtx said:

If there was a way to add more specialty restaurants like Tamarind to the older ships along with dedicated Club Orange dining rooms, there would be no need to build newer ships, IMO. We sailed on the Koningsdam in November with CO and fell in love with HAL again. CO provided more of the elevated level of service we are used to with the Retreat on Celebrity. We are booked on the Volendam with CO next year, not for the ship but the itinerary of the cruise. Other than the Volendam next year, it would be very hard for us to book any HAL cruise that is not a Pinnacle Class ship.

 

I’m on the Volendam next year as well and looking forward to returning to her.

 

I sailed on a number of the smaller ships pre-covid - in particular the old Rotterdam and lovely Prinsendam.  The service on those ships was excellent.  Way above what you would see on the Pinnacle Class ships without CO.  Assuming things have not changed, there really is no need for CO on the smaller ships as the crew to passenger ratio has been higher and the service personal and great.

 

I hope that is still the case next year 🤞 

[Sea Hag]

9 hours ago, hrhdhd said:

I don't need a "wow" factor, especially if the factor is "Wow, that ship is big and ugly," which I said yesterday about the Carnival Celebration.

I don't need wow factor either. I hear you on the comment about the Carnival ship. We sailed on one of theirs some years back, and I always said it looked like an explosion in a Barbie Dreamhouse. Pink and silver everywhere you look. 

 

We did our first sailing with HAL back in September of this year on the Westerdam. The ship is well laid out and very well maintained. This works fine for me.

[terrydtx]

29 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

I’m on the Volendam next year as well and looking forward to returning to her.

 

I sailed on a number of the smaller ships pre-covid - in particular the old Rotterdam and lovely Prinsendam.  The service on those ships was excellent.  Way above what you would see on the Pinnacle Class ships without CO.  Assuming things have not changed, there really is no need for CO on the smaller ships as the crew to passenger ratio has been higher and the service personal and great. 

 

I hope that is still the case next year 🤞 

I booked CO on our Volendam cruise primarily for the upgrade in our Vista Suite from B to A meta category which paid for the CO cost. We would have booked the A level VS without CO anyway. Also we have 4 tender ports and the priority tendering was important, because we are booking mostly private tours with early departure times. On the Koningsdam last month the extra CO entree were some of the best dishes we had for dinner. I also liked never having to wait in line for guest services as well. So CO really didn't cost us anything and we got the midship VS we would have booked. All the extra CO benefits are just gravy for us.

Edited December 14, 2023 by terrydtx

[Roz]

@sambamama, I really don't see HAL entering the 7,000 passenger ship market, but I could be wrong about that. 

[Tampa Girl]

1 hour ago, Roz said:

A

 

I won't sail the Zaandam or Volendam, no matter how attractive the itinerary.  The thought of being stuck on either of those ships for more than 2 weeks is too much to bear. 

 

Tell that to the many WC '23 passengers who will not sail on anything other than the R Class ships, and for good reasons.  Having sailed 89 days on the former Amsterdam, I wholeheartedly agree with those WC cruisers.  If you haven't tried a long voyage on the R class ships, don't knock them.. 

 

[seacruise9]

1 hour ago, sunviking90 said:

We just finished being stuck on the Volendam for 18 days and after quite a few cruises on larger Princess ships post pandemic as well as the Zuiderdam, we LOVED the friendly small ship feel of the Volendam. The recent refurbishment left the ship feeling fresh, while keeping anll the classic things we love like the huge library and she’s now our favorite. We had only 1200 passengers and it was great! 
We all have different tastes and that’s fine. I’m trying out my first Pinnacle class in January on Koningsdam. I know I’ll miss the wide promenade, but aside from that I may love it. Who knows?

Hi, 

 

It is good to hear that you enjoyed the Volendam. I am booked on the Volendam for May 2024. I recently took my first cruise on a Pinnacle Class ship - the Rotterdam from Nov. 24 - Dec. 3, 2023. I enjoyed the Rotterdam and its many dining options. 

 

Chuck 

[mcrcruiser]

Thanks for all your posts .we loved reaqding your thoughts & in put

 

 We hope HAL does not leave the Carnival Fleet of Cruise Lines .However ,if they did get bought out  then perhaps a line like MSNC would  add a ship between the Volendam size & the Pinnacle class size ship . 

 

 In the immediate future I think they are loosing  bookings because lack of having Broadway style shows  on the  World Stage as well as some music & dancing later in the evening  around 11 PM to 1 AM  .Another good item to add would be pickle ball court 

 

A plus would be if HAL could add the Dutch Cafe & Tamarind  to their older vessels   

[mcrcruiser]

5 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

Hmmm...in one breath people are screaming HAL and Carnival has too much debt and is in doubt of survival, may have to sell of a brand or two, and in the next, complaining they aren't building enough new ships. One wonders.

Bruce CCL is well on it;s way lowering the big Debt with record bookings & higher prices  .They also instituted a program to limit waste across the entire fleet ..We realize the priority of lowering the debt  because of the drag on the bottom line but ,imo CCL management is managing  the debt very well at this moment . We just do not need a black swan event hitting the stock market in 2024  & on ;which could radically change things rather quickly in the number of bookings .So we can only hope that does not happen in a   very difficult world   .As of now we own a lot od CC L shares & doing exceptionally well with their stock  plus the extra OBCs

[sunviking90]

1 hour ago, mcrcruiser said:

Thanks for all your posts .we loved reaqding your thoughts & in put

 

 We hope HAL does not leave the Carnival Fleet of Cruise Lines .However ,if they did get bought out  then perhaps a line like MSNC would  add a ship between the Volendam size & the Pinnacle class size ship . 

 

 In the immediate future I think they are loosing  bookings because lack of having Broadway style shows  on the  World Stage as well as some music & dancing later in the evening  around 11 PM to 1 AM  .Another good item to add would be pickle ball court 

 

A plus would be if HAL could add the Dutch Cafe & Tamarind  to their older vessels   

As far as I know they have pickle ball courts. They are the “official” pickle ball cruise line aren’t they? Volendam had 2 new pickle ball courts.

[CruiserBruce]

29 minutes ago, sunviking90 said:

As far as I know they have pickle ball courts. They are the “official” pickle ball cruise line aren’t they? Volendam had 2 new pickle ball courts.

They do. 

[CruiserBruce]

1 hour ago, mcrcruiser said:

Bruce CCL is well on it;s way lowering the big Debt with record bookings & higher prices  .They also instituted a program to limit waste across the entire fleet ..We realize the priority of lowering the debt  because of the drag on the bottom line but ,imo CCL management is managing  the debt very well at this moment . We just do not need a black swan event hitting the stock market in 2024  & on ;which could radically change things rather quickly in the number of bookings .So we can only hope that does not happen in a   very difficult world   .As of now we own a lot od CC L shares & doing exceptionally well with their stock  plus the extra OBCs

I know that CCL is doing well on their debt...I told you that a few months ago, and you pooh-poohed it!

[sambamama]

The Volendam's theme is flowers, as I remember.  I sailed her when I went to Alaska.  I loved her.  Yes, I realize that HAL is very doubtful to build a 7000 passenger ship, but I am just saying not everyone is love with the Koningdam and her sisters. I don't think I would be very happy on a ship with more than 2400 passengers.  But it's a moot point, most likely, with most all the cruise lines going to near 100% single supplements.  At that rate, it's more economical for me to take land tours, or better yet, for me just to plan my own tours.  And if I want ocean water, go stay by a beach, or book a stay on an island.  It's better for me now that I'm a certified scuba diver  anyway. (Who knew I'd get certified at 64??  Not me!!)

[DCDragonfly]

If HAL builds a 7000-passenger ship, they could anticipate people's reaction and call it the Goddam.

[MISTER 67]

4 hours ago, sambamama said:

I would much rather sail on the Volendam than the Koningsdam any day.  I want my Promenade deck open and able to walk completely around the ship.  I want my ship smaller rather than bigger.  I don't want a ship to sell me a single cabin and charge me almost the same price as a regular cabin and have it be half the size.  I tried to sail on the Maasdam, and the Ryndam as much as possible.  I was on the Veendam, but hated it as they butchered her by putting the extension in the middle and taking out the aft pool.  I don't want to sail with 7000 of my closest friends, and I don't want to tender to every port.  I very much regret I never got to sail on the Prinsendam.  And I am thrilled that I am sailing on the old Ryndam which was bought by Celestyal Cruises this fall when I sail around Greece.

Agree but the Volendam and Zaandam are a bit too small, we love the Signature Class ships, the Eurodam and the Nieuw Amsterdam are favorites of ours, just the perfect size. The Koningsdam and her sisters are OK but like you stated they are the new style ships that have taken away the traditional promenade deck.

I'm waiting for one of the lines to bite the bullet one of these days and build a ship with the traditional promenade deck.

Edited December 14, 2023 by MISTER 67

[Petronillus]

3 hours ago, sunviking90 said:

We just finished being stuck on the Volendam for 18 days and after quite a few cruises on larger Princess ships post pandemic as well as the Zuiderdam, we LOVED the friendly small ship feel of the Volendam. The recent refurbishment left the ship feeling fresh, while keeping anll the classic things we love like the huge library and she’s now our favorite. We had only 1200 passengers and it was great! 
We all have different tastes and that’s fine. I’m trying out my first Pinnacle class in January on Koningsdam. I know I’ll miss the wide promenade, but aside from that I may love it. Who knows?

I'm confused. You mention a string of compliments, and yet you lead with "We just finished being stuck on the Volendam for 18 days" (emphasis added). Is that like "Beat  me up some more"?

[crystalspin]

2 hours ago, mcrcruiser said:

... However ,if they did get bought out  then perhaps a line like MSNC would  add a ship between the Volendam size & the Pinnacle class size ship . 

 

 In the immediate future I think they are loosing  bookings because lack of having Broadway style shows  on the  World Stage as well as some music & dancing later in the evening  around 11 PM to 1 AM  ...

 

A plus would be if HAL could add the Dutch Cafe & Tamarind  to their older vessels   

(1) There are two classes of ships between Volendam and Pinnacle ships -- they just don't currently sail from San Diego.

(2) I'm sure the people with the BBKing bass filling their cabins are thankful they quit at 11. (I have been there.)

(3) I believe if this could have been done, it would have. But we can always hope! 

[crystalspin]

3 minutes ago, Petronillus said:

I'm confused. You mention a string of compliments, and yet you lead with "We just finished being stuck on the Volendam for 18 days" (emphasis added). Is that like "Beat  me up some more"?

Sunviking was using Roz's turn of phrase. (See the quoted post.)

[Petronillus]

3 hours ago, Sea Hag said:

We did our first sailing with HAL back in September of this year on the Westerdam. The ship is well laid out and very well maintained. This works fine for me.

We're booked on Westerdam's Asia cruise this coming February, 28 days r/t Hong Kong. I'm so glad to hear good things about her.

[Petronillus]

8 minutes ago, crystalspin said:

Sunviking was using Roz's turn of phrase. (See the quoted post.)

Thanks for clearing up my confusion. I did read the quoted post but failed to connect and catch the irony. Oops!

[BermudaBound2014]

CCL releases 4th quarter on Thursday the 21st and follows up with a conference call at 10:00 a.m. EST.

 

You can listen to the simulcast live 😉 

 

https://www.morningstar.com/news/pr-newswire/20231214cl93493/carnival-corporation-plc-to-hold-conference-call-on-fourth-quarter-earnings

 

 

[Boatdrill]

12 hours ago, hrhdhd said:

I don't need a "wow" factor, especially if the factor is "Wow, that ship is big and ugly," which I said yesterday about the Carnival Celebration.

For another "wow", the new Icon of the Seas will debut In January. 

A friend refers to it as the Eyesore of the Seas. 

[mcrcruiser]

32 minutes ago, crystalspin said:

(1) There are two classes of ships between Volendam and Pinnacle ships -- they just don't currently sail from San Diego.

(2) I'm sure the people with the BBKing bass filling their cabins are thankful they quit at 11. (I have been there.)

(3) I believe if this could have been done, it would have. But we can always hope! 

Crystal i was eluding to a totally different class sized vessel   . We have sailed  the small medium & large HAL ships .We did not always sail only from San Diego port .Only recently because my DW can no longer fly ;however ,we have been on the prior Rotterdam  from Tampa port to the Western Caribbean ,she was like 57000 gross tons .We sailed on  Eurodam & Osterdam  as they once sailed from San Diego  . Now we sail on Koningdam  which we like a lot but We also really liked eurodam & we sailed to Australia on Nordham back in 2015  .That was a very nice voyage as well . 

 

 Over all we are happy sailing HAL ships .Could they improve with different entertainment yes ,That is about all we ask  if they bring back the broad way shows & somew really good mainliners . That we miss from our Celebrity  many sailings

[mcrcruiser]

7 minutes ago, Boatdrill said:

For another "wow", the new Icon of the Seas will debut In January. 

A friend refers to it as the Eyesore of the Seas. 

It will fill up for those people who like a lot of activity aboard  .like our 57 year   old daughter & her 562c uear old husband , both  are in excellent shape & health because they work out every day . This size ship obviously is not for every one but ,those mega ships with all theri  separate neigborhoods you do not feel crowded on board  ,Getting on & off that size ship is a different story .People like all the activities & 3 shows daily