Oooops, just hit the dock in Ketchikan (Several Threads Merged)

[BND]

Does it really matter who was in charge or who presumably made a mistake or a mistake in judgement? It's an unforunate situation....I'm sure no one on the bridge wanted this to happen. We don't have to find who to "blame" and convict....this isn't a trial.

 

I think everyone tried to get the ship to the dock safely...and when things went wrong, they tried to make the right decisions. To me, avoiding hitting another ship is the right decision.

 

Things happen....those in charge, whoever they are, must make split second decisions based on the (often incomplete) information they have. It sounds like that's what happened here.

 

Time to move on to our normal rumor mongering, complaining, whining et al...and let this unfortunate accident just fade away.

 

Actually, it does matter. There are implications depending on what happened which is why there will be a full investigation. I think you're missing the point and trying to play peacemaker when that isn't necessary here.

[chengkp75]

As the wife of a US Coast. Guard Officer, I asked him. He said that once the HARBOR PILOT takes control, until either completely berthed or free to sail the HARBOR PILOT is liable for the actions of the ship... UNLESS there is an electrical or mechanical failure that because of said failure the ship had a collision. Then the shipping company (cruise line) is liable. Once the HARBOR PILOT takes the "control" of the vessel, the Maritime Captain relinquishes his command of the vessel.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums mobile app

 

Okay, again, I will weigh in on the Captain/Pilot relationship. The Pilot will "have the conn", having been granted this responsibility by the Captain, and this means he can give orders for maneuvering to the ship's crew. Since the pilot is not a company employee, he has no authority to touch any of the controls of the ship, not even to adjust the brightness of the radar screen. So, does he "have control" or is he "in control"? This description is taken, not verbatim, from a Columbia Bar senior pilot, who teaches classes in this very topic:

 

The Master/Pilot relationship is a balancing act between "power" and "authority". The pilot has the legal "authority" to maneuver the ship, but cannot do so without the agreement of the Captain, who has the "power" to maneuver the ship. Conversely, the Captain has the "power" to maneuver the ship, but cannot because he does not have the legal "authority" to do so.

 

As far as "responsibility", the pilot is legally responsible for his actions. The Captain is responsible for the ship and any damage done by the ship. The Captain has the "responsibility" to countermand or relieve the pilot if he feels that the pilot's actions are placing the ship, crew, passengers, cargo, or other facility in danger.

 

In the debate with Tonka's Skipper, I will side with Skipper. The Suez pilot takes the conn, as defined above, in both canals.

 

It is reported from the USCG that a 40-45 knot gust caught the ship while she was docking. While things like this can and should be anticipated, as Despegue states, unless you have a Merchant Mariner's license, and were on the bridge that day, no one here has the right to judge anyone.

 

As an update. There was a patch welded over the hole in the hull, and the USCG and class certified the ship as seaworthy. On a thread about this over on HAL, I posted my estimates of repairs:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=50175030&postcount=70

 

I really don't see this affecting the schedule in any way.

[dodger1964]

Does it really matter who was in charge or who presumably made a mistake or a mistake in judgement? It's an unforunate situation....I'm sure no one on the bridge wanted this to happen. We don't have to find who to "blame" and convict....this isn't a trial.

 

I think everyone tried to get the ship to the dock safely...and when things went wrong, they tried to make the right decisions. To me, avoiding hitting another ship is the right decision.

 

Things happen....those in charge, whoever they are, must make split second decisions based on the (often incomplete) information they have. It sounds like that's what happened here.

 

Time to move on to our normal rumor mongering, complaining, whining et al...and let this unfortunate accident just fade away.

 

 

I think it matters to all who sail with this captain (Or if for some reason he wasn't docking the ship...if for instance he was ill and had first officer in command...highly doubtful) that unless there was some kind of mechanical failure (Once again highly doubtful) then the question of the captains judgment comes front and center.

 

I would hope in the aftermath of this, there would be analysis, so in the future, with similar situation, same captain would make different choice.

[esdoorn]

Guys,

 

So much blame from so many know all's here...

 

Unless you were on the bridge at the time of the incident

And have your STCW certificate, may I kindly suggest to refrain from blaming the Navigation crew, including Captain Berdos or the local Pilot? Thank you.

 

From what I can see, it IS possible that a collision with ms. Zaandam was averted, and it is obvious that the wind was not only very strong, but also gusty.

Berthing a large vessel requires considerable skill, even more so in challenging weather. Just like landing a widebody jet in gusty conditions.

One thing is certain. Celebrity operates a "no blame" policy, as do ALL Safety conscious cruise lines ( and airlines).

 

The incident will be analysed, conclusions made, recomendations given and if necessary extra or new training given either fleetwide of to those involved on the incident. Lessons will be learned.

Only if there was a DELIBERATE disregard of Standard Operating Procedures and/or Limitations, Diciplinary action will be taken.

 

Best regards,

 

Despegue

Captain B747-400

Chairman of TCAS Maritime and Aviation Safety

 

 

 

So, if the conditions were as bad as they were, why did the captain (who is responsible for the ship) no seek assistance from tug boats to dock or simply not dock at all and miss the port? Both options were the safe things to do.

 

In the end, the Captain is responsible and this is a big mess that lands at his/her feet.

 

.

Edited June 6, 2016 by esdoorn

[TeaBag]

The ropes are off and Infinity is ready to sail from Vancouver. I hope everyone has a wonderful cruise.

[uktog]

Oh please this thread is becoming inappropriate trial by media.

 

An expert not a broken tap or faucet (ex spurt) has given us facts.

It makes no difference what you all think a properly constituted investigation with access to ALL the facts will be conducted.

 

I suggest the host locks this thread and for those so paranoid about finding who to blame I hope you've never made a mistake in your lives or got away with a very risky decision.

[love2driveinct]

Honestly this was my thought as well. I have to wonder if they don't feel so much pressure to make the ports to avoid complaints by guests that they are willing to take more risks than they normally would. Look how many complaints we see on here if a port is cancelled.

 

Even currents can make things tricky. My last Disney Fantasy cruise was while the US was in the throes of the polar vortex, and things were pretty windy and currenty even in the Eastern Caribbean. At least one of the Disney ships had been unable to make Castaway Cay earlier in the week - they were able to construct a very narrow channel in order to build that dock, and the ships have to hit it just right. We had Commodore Tom as our captain on the Fantasy - DCL's original and most experienced - and I honestly thought we were not making it. I stood on the top deck aft (they back in to avoid getting stuck because of winds/currents as it is far easier for them to go against those forwards) and watched us literally look like we were not moving as he carefully worked against the wind and current to get her into the channel. Only once we were at least 2/3 in did he speed up slightly. My sister, who works for DCL (but was not on board when I was - she was on her vacation - and I did not get any discount as I HAVE to book in advance because of school vacations), said that if we had had any of the other captains, it would have turned into a sea day - and that likely he was thisclose to turning ours into another sea day.

 

I'm not doubting that the captain and his team did everything they could once they were in that position. I just question the wisdom in attempting what has been said to be a very tight parking space in less than stellar conditions - and how much of the reasoning behind trying is pressure to avoid customer complaints about missed ports.

 

Interesting story... my memory fails me now, but I'm guessing that the Magic was not backed into port when we were on her in Feb 2010 and subsequently got stuck at Castaway Cay an extra 24 hours due to rough currents.

 

Stuck at Castaway Cay:

[Mr. Click]

TeaBag, thanks for letting us know they got off without any real issues. That is the best news.

 

Despegue, thanks for putting this in proper perspective. It is indeed a messy incident that will require some serious investigation but the proper authorities. Once that investigation is done and the reports are filed, we will know what really happened and where the blame is placed.

 

Disclaimers.. I have never captained a vessel over 34 feet in length, never piloted any type of aircraft but have logged many many miles in everything from a 1923 Swallow bi-plane to a 747 and I have stayed at many Holiday Inn Express hotels.

[The_Big_M]

There are two times when a captain is not in control of a ship:

 

1. Panama Canal

2. Dry dock

 

Not only. For example, Shanghai also has similar requirements.

[GUT2407]

Oh please this thread is becoming inappropriate trial by media.

 

An expert not a broken tap or faucet (ex spurt) has given us facts.

It makes no difference what you all think a properly constituted investigation with access to ALL the facts will be conducted.

 

I suggest the host locks this thread and for those so paranoid about finding who to blame I hope you've never made a mistake in your lives or got away with a very risky decision.

 

Trial by media, or trial by the mob?

 

Never happen on CC:eek:;)

[MicCanberra]

Trial by media, or trial by the mob?

 

Never happen on CC:eek:;)

 

Not much anyway.

[drumming cruisers]

YouTube video of crash

 

wow! thanks for the video! Looks like the

ship was going WAY to fast

[Wiltonian]

One problem is that people are equating a smooth docking with no error of judgement and a 'hard docking' with an error of judgement.

 

But 'error of judgement' is not a binary phenomenon (was / was not) but a graduated one.

 

Most drivers make minor ones every week: eg having to brake a little harder than anticipated due to slightly misjudged distance.

 

In manoevering a ship, overestimating side wind might need a correction to effect a docking.

 

In this case, there was an error of judgement on someone's part, but such errors are inevitable in real world situations. The point surely is that on a scale which runs from 'no damage at all' to 'Costa Concordia', this incident was relatively trivial.

 

Let those who have never ever made an error of judgement while driving cast the first stone.

 

Stuart

Edited June 6, 2016 by Wiltonian

[goody1]

Oh please this thread is becoming inappropriate trial by media.

 

An expert not a broken tap or faucet (ex spurt) has given us facts.

It makes no difference what you all think a properly constituted investigation with access to ALL the facts will be conducted.

 

I suggest the host locks this thread and for those so paranoid about finding who to blame I hope you've never made a mistake in your lives or got away with a very risky decision.

 

Couldn't agree with you more. Armchair critics, don't you just love them!

[upwarduk]

n this case, there was an error of judgement on someone's part,

 

I remember when we were leaving Bilbao on Infinity's TA in 2013.

Storm conditions were forecast and the Captain wanted to stay in port.

However, he was over-ruled by Miami, who said there would be more damage to the ship if we stayed in port, as it would be buffeted against the harbour wall.

We had upwards of 40 ft waves that night and storm force 10 winds. One of the windows in the dining room was imploded and that area was out of bounds for the remainder of the cruise.

 

The incident in Ketchikan was caused by a sudden gust of wind, which probably no one could have predicted, just that it came at an inappropriate moment!

Edited June 6, 2016 by upwarduk

[MicCanberra]

 

The incident in Ketchikan was caused by a sudden gust of wind, which probably no one could have predicted, just that it came at an inappropriate moment!

 

Good point. I was watching a tree in the wind just today and tried to predict when the next big gust would hit and had no luck. Very difficult indeed.

[chengkp75]

I'm a little confused. Some photos show a hole and some say it was just a skuff mark?

 

I'm guessing all is fixed and the Infinity will be on schedule for the next few weeks?? I hope people who boarded yesterday will keep us posted.

 

And to the person who captured the woman on the video at 2:10 OMG that is way too funny!!!!!!!!!

 

I am super happy no one was hurt! That's what matters :)

 

I don't believe it "is all fixed" yet. She is sailing with a temporary patch over the hole, and most likely next week in Vancouver, when they can get the cabin inside (crew cabin, I think) dismantled, and the proper piece of hull plating and all the support workers and equipment, that they will make a permanent repair. It will not affect the schedule to any degree, unless they make the turn around in Vancouver a couple of hours longer.

[MicCanberra]

I would hope it is fixed sooner rather than later.

[chengkp75]

I would hope it is fixed sooner rather than later.

 

Oh, the class society will require a more permanent repair as soon as possible, but it does take some time to get everything lined up to make the repair. Hey, Carnival Legend cut a much larger hole down near the waterline, rigged two thruster motors out onto a barge, rigged two new motors back in, and welded the patch back in place in about 30 hours. This repair, above most dock levels, and smaller, should be completed within 8 hours or at most a normal turn around time, with the proper preparation.

[FreestyleNovice]

Wow, just saw the clip.

 

edit; won't let me use the url for an image

Edited June 6, 2016 by FreestyleNovice

[The BarCarres]

On board Infinity now just cleared Vancouver Island. Everything is fine, no change to our schedule (including Ketchikan). One crew member described everything as was discussed earlier..take out HAL ship or dock. He also said if it had been serious damage to the hull the Infinity would have headed straight to Esquimalt for major repairs.

 

Just want to confirm yesterday was a beautiful sail away. My gorgeous city put on her prettiest face for everyone and we had a lovely evening sailing up the Straight of Georgia.

 

Joanne

[dodger1964]

... One crew member described everything as was discussed earlier..take out HAL ship or dock....

 

 

I know i will get "internet yelled at", but there was a third option...Not docking in the first place.

 

At some point in time that would have been the right call, but by the time the captain realized that, it might have been too late.

[Andy]

Guys,

 

So much blame from so many know all's here...

 

Unless you were on the bridge at the time of the incident

And have your STCW certificate, may I kindly suggest to refrain from blaming the Navigation crew, including Captain Berdos or the local Pilot? Thank you.

 

From what I can see, it IS possible that a collision with ms. Zaandam was averted, and it is obvious that the wind was not only very strong, but also gusty.

Berthing a large vessel requires considerable skill, even more so in challenging weather. Just like landing a widebody jet in gusty conditions.

One thing is certain. Celebrity operates a "no blame" policy, as do ALL Safety conscious cruise lines ( and airlines).

 

The incident will be analysed, conclusions made, recomendations given and if necessary extra or new training given either fleetwide of to those involved on the incident. Lessons will be learned.

Only if there was a DELIBERATE disregard of Standard Operating Procedures and/or Limitations, Diciplinary action will be taken.

 

Best regards,

 

Despegue

Captain B747-400

Chairman of TCAS Maritime and Aviation Safety

 

Thank you kindly for your (as always) wonderful insights Despegue. While we truly appreciate the onboard insights from our members.... It's incredible to see that many folks (who were nowhere near Alaska) wish to be judge and jury ! In addition, none of us were on the bridge when this happened. Even if we were ? We would not have the expertise to pass any judgement.

 

How many of us have have been involved in car accidents, when matters were completely beyond our control ? Did you ever stop to think about actions you took, that made the accident far less than what could have been ? Think about that for a moment.

 

I'm not about to pass any judgement on what happened in Ketchikan, and feel we should leave that to the experts. What I do know, is that Captain Berdos is a highly experienced and outstanding Captain. I wish him all the very best during this challenging time.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Host Andy

[richsea]

Thank you Andy, for your usual voice of reason. And thank the actual expert posters on this thread for posting their insights & expertise. To the other so called & self proclaimed "experts" who profess to know who is is/not in charge, what should/should not have been done, & profess to know exactly what transpired, despite being nowhere near the incident, take a deep breath & try to get over yourselves. You all sound like the experts commenting on the gorilla & the toddler.

[Hydrokitty]

Thank you kindly for your (as always) wonderful insights Despegue. While we truly appreciate the onboard insights from our members.... It's incredible to see that many folks (who were nowhere near Alaska) wish to be judge and jury ! In addition, none of us were on the bridge when this happened. Even if we were ? We would not have the expertise to pass any judgement.

 

How many of us have have been involved in car accidents, when matters were completely beyond our control ? Did you ever stop to think about actions you took, that made the accident far less than what could have been ? Think about that for a moment.

 

I'm not about to pass any judgement on what happened in Ketchikan, and feel we should leave that to the experts. What I do know, is that Captain Berdos is a highly experienced and outstanding Captain. I wish him all the very best during this challenging time.

 

Searching for that LIKE button....excellent analogy with auto accidents....how many of us can say we've never made the wrong choice when faced with an immediate decision. If Captain Berdos had another chance he might have chosen another option, but maybe what he chose WAS the best option, especially if other option was to take out another ship!! He probably had seconds to decide what to do....nobody got hurt....damage not catastrophic....looks like he made a reasonable decision to me.