After reading this article do you think "kicked off" are the right words to use?

[whogo]

41 minutes ago, POA1 said:

Who writes this stuff? The passengers were kicked off, yet only "reportedly" did not have the visas. Where are the layers of editors and fact checkers? Couldn't someone have tried to verify the visa requirements and whether or not the people had them?

The msn article is based on a news.com.au article that is based on a report by Elliott Advocacy. I think the Elliott Advocacy report gives the best account of what transpired. https://www.elliott.org/advice/removed-from-their-cruise-no-refund/

The passengers' account sounds like excuses for not turning in a homework assignment.

"Nobody told me."

"I was away from my computer for two months."

"I couldn't open the links."

[AmazedByCruising]

13 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

Nope.  When you enter a country you enter a country no matter how your ship is flagged.  No different from any other travel.  You are in their waters and subject to their rules.  

 

chengpk75 who knows has explained it well.  

 

 

Chengpk75 explained how it works, but not why it's different from how it should work. From what I learned, China has nothing to do with who's on a ship or what substances they use or whatever,  unless it becomes a problem for themselves. No way a guest staying on the ship can become a problem unless they jump of with bags of cocaine, which is unlikely.

Edited December 1, 2018 by AmazedByCruising

[ChinaShrek]

Why wouldn't the 144-Hour Visa free travel in China work?  There are many people visiting China for just a few days now without a visa. 

 

http://cy.china-embassy.org/eng/lsqw/t1567073.htm

 

[chengkp75]

30 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

I was thinking that a Dutch flagged ship would be in Dutch jurisdiction even in a port in China. That China shouldn't care or even look at the "inner workings of the ship" when a ship houses guests that wouldn't even touch a street in China. How are Americans, or crew, without proper visa possibly a danger to the port? 

 

Same for US ports of course.

Clearing customs and immigration is not an "inner working" of the ship, it is a function between the ship and the port state.  It is a condition for allowing the ship into the port.  Therefore, the port state laws apply, over the flag state.  Whether or not  a person who remains on the ship needs a visa is determined by the port state's laws, and even crew who remain onboard must abide by the immigration laws of the port state.

[GUT2407]

I wonder if on boarding they were told something like

 

”you don’t have your visa, in the past we have been able to get permission for people to stay on the ship without a visa. We will try that for you, but if we can’t get permission ....”?.

[TAD2005]

The media does this all the time with Cruise incidents.   A perfect example is when a cruise passenger goes overboard.   The huge headline is "Another Cruise Ship Passenger FALLS Overboard".   That is exactly the definition of "Fake News".   When you read the news story,  the person was in some kind of domestic dispute,  drinking far too much, taking a "selfie" by sitting on the railing, etc.   No one "falls" overboard a cruise ship.  The railings come up to mid-chest for most sized people, so your center of gravity is far below the top of the railing.   

And when a ship boots a passenger off a ship, 90% of the time it is because of the passenger failing to adhere to the clearly stated rules, or by improper behavior towards other passengers or crew members.   The cruise lines clearly know when they boot someone off the ship, there will be hell to pay in the press.  So they don't do this on the word of one officer or even the captain.  Discussions have been ongoing with corporate headquarters, and the line's lawyers have put their blessing on the plan.   

[1025cruise]

I've read this story a few times. My guess is that the couple has not been happy with any "remediation" for their efforts and keeps expanding their outreach. This was on elliot.org quite a bit ago.

[AmazedByCruising]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Clearing customs and immigration is not an "inner working" of the ship, it is a function between the ship and the port state.  It is a condition for allowing the ship into the port.  Therefore, the port state laws apply, over the flag state.  Whether or not  a person who remains on the ship needs a visa is determined by the port state's laws, and even crew who remain onboard must abide by the immigration laws of the port state.

 

I wonder what "inner working" is left when a port can even interfere with guests that would't even get of the ship

[GUT2407]

2 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

I wonder what "inner working" is left when a port can even interfere with guests that would't even get of the ship

As they have entered that country, it’s outside the issue of inner working.

 

not sure what hard to grasp about any country regulating who enters.

[Essiesmom]

2 hours ago, ChinaShrek said:

Why wouldn't the 144-Hour Visa free travel in China work?  There are many people visiting China for just a few days now without a visa. 

 

http://cy.china-embassy.org/eng/lsqw/t1567073.htm

 

 

Because they were visiting multiple ports in China, and the cruise ended in Shanghai.  They would need a multi-entry visa.

 

Westerdam Depart: 8:00:00 PM 10/15/2018 Yokohama, Japan Amsterdam Arrive: 8:00 AM  Westerdam 8:00:00 AM - 2:00:00 PM 10/16/2018 Shimizu, Japan   Westerdam 8:00:00 AM - 6:00:00 PM 10/17/2018 Osaka, Kyoto, Nara, Japan   Westerdam 12:00:00 PM - 8:00:00 PM 10/18/2018 Beppu   Westerdam 10/19/2018 Kanmon Strait   Westerdam 8:00:00 AM - 10:00:00 PM 10/19/2018 Fukuoka, Japan   Westerdam 8:00:00 AM - 5:00:00 PM 10/20/2018 Pusan/Kyongju, Korea   Westerdam 8:00:00 AM - 5:00:00 PM 10/21/2018 Sasebo, Japan   Westerdam 10/22/2018 At Sea   Westerdam 8:00:00 AM - 5:00:00 PM 10/23/2018 Dalian, China   Westerdam Arrive: 8:00:00 AM 10/24/2018 Tianjin, Forbidden City, China Amsterdam 7:00 AM - 6:00 PM  Westerdam Depart: 6:00:00 PM 10/25/2018 Tianjin, Forbidden City, China Amsterdam Depart: 6:00 PM  Westerdam 10/26/2018 At Sea   Westerdam 8:00:00 AM - 5:00:00 PM 10/27/2018 Qingdao, China   Westerdam 10/28/2018 At Sea   Westerdam Arrive: 8:00:00 AM 10/29/2018 Shanghai, China Amsterdam Depart: 6:00 PM  Quantum Of The Seas 7:00 AM - 4:30 PM (Dock) ** This data is for planning purposes only. All schedules are subject to change **

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

I wonder what "inner working" is left when a port can even interfere with guests that would't even get of the ship

Again, it is not about whether the person is staying on the ship or not, while in port.  It is whether or not the person is allowed to "enter" China at all, at the "border" crossing when the ship enters Chinese waters.  These people were "entering" China illegally, by not having a required visa, and could have been subject to immediate disembarkation, detention while transported to the airport for immediate deportation, all at the cruise line's expense (though I believe the ticket contract would have passed that back to the passenger), including the cost of the transport to the airport, administrative fees, and the law enforcement officers' wages.  The ship could also have faced a fine.  Remember, just like I said, even crew who are onboard, and who never intend on going ashore may require visas for the ship to enter the country.  I don't understand why the concept of a person not having required documentation to enter a country, regardless of whether it be by land, sea, or air, is not an "external" transaction between the bus, ship, or airline and the port state.

 

Further, I see what complicated the whole process, based on the itinerary posted above, the cruise was to end in China, and the guests would have disembarked in China, which creates an entirely different set of circumstances over and above a simple port call "where they could stay onboard".

[terrydtx]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

Further, I see what complicated the whole process, based on the itinerary posted above, the cruise was to end in China, and the guests would have disembarked in China, which creates an entirely different set of circumstances over and above a simple port call "where they could stay onboard".

I agree the end point of the cruise in China was most likely the issue for these passengers. I traveled for business to China from 1998 to 2001 twice a month and had to get new visa every 6 months and they took up to 3 weeks to get back from the Chinese consulate in Houston TX and they were not cheap. The visa fees are a major financial source for China and the advance time required allowed the Chinese Government to do back ground checks on any one entering their country. I could never get on the flights to China from the US if my passport did not have the current Visa stamp from China.

 

BTW I had to send my US passport to the Chinese Consulate with my Visa application and fee to get the stamp added to the passport. I do not know if that is the same process the Chinese require now, but it was when I traveled there.

Edited December 2, 2018 by terrydtx

[doublebzz]

1 hour ago, terrydtx said:

 The visa fees are a major financial source for China and the advance time required allowed the Chinese Government to do back ground checks on any one entering their country.

Given the billions of dollars in trade surplus China receives from the U.S., I doubt the few millions they receive in visa fees are a "a major financial source for China."  More likely the communist bureaucracy and paranoia relating to foreigners are the culprits.  I can't think of a travel issue more confusing than China visa requirements - in some cases one is needed and in others not the case.  In my humble opinion, cruise lines have a responsibility to clearly define in writing exactly what the visa requirements are for a particular cruise.

[kazu]

By coincidence, I just did my online check in earlier for my next cruise and the terms and conditions of my cruise contract were required to be scrolled through.

 

The visa requirement and rights to disembark someone are very clearly stated.  Now, if someone just decides to scroll down and not read, that's their perogative and their problem if they get a surprise and are removed from the ship.

[GeorgeCharlie]

We were on a cruise this past spring which included stops in China and found the need of a multi-entry visa a fairly easy requirement to understand - as did it seemed to be with other passengers on the ship. 

 

We booked directly with the cruise line and they also sent out multiple notices (as HAL did in this case) - that it was our responsibility to ensure we had all required visas/documentation.

 

In addition, we found getting the China visa to be fairly easy compared to the problems we've had with other countries (say India). 

[Copper10-8]

8 minutes ago, GeorgeCharlie said:

.........................

In addition, we found getting the China visa to be fairly easy compared to the problems we've had with other countries (say India). 

 

Oh yeah; Indian visas are a nightmare and not cheap either

[rafinmd]

7 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

Oh yeah; Indian visas are a nightmare and not cheap either

Yes, and is the India visa for 10 years now like the China visa?

 

With regard to the original question I think every time I've been on HAL where an individual visa is required they've sent my TA a notice just of the visa requirement and my TA sends it on to me the same way.  I doubt that the requirement was buried in a general correspondence; they must have entirely overlooked a notice.

 

Roy

[Fouremco]

3 hours ago, doublebzz said:

In my humble opinion, cruise lines have a responsibility to clearly define in writing exactly what the visa requirements are for a particular cruise.

If all passengers were, for example, from the US and were currently residing in the US and travelling on US passports, that might be possible. With the thousands of possible variations in visa requirements, it is unrealistic to expect HAL to provide them in detail for every cruise. As far as I know, there is no other cruise line or airline that provides such a service. Any passenger booking a cruise must be an adult, and it is appropriate for them to be treated as such.

 

When doing your online check-in, there is a box that you must check that generates the following pop-up notice. Of course, as previously pointed out, passengers can't be forced to read the notice, but that's their fault, not HAL's. The underscoring is mine:

 

Important Visa Notice

This message is provided as a courtesy to all guests regarding potential visa requirements. Some countries require you to obtain and carry with you official documentation, called a visa, before entering that country. It is your sole responsibility to obtain and have available the proper travel documents necessary for your travel, including all associated costs related to obtaining your travel documents. Boarding may be denied if you arrive at the pier without the proper travel documentation, and in that case you are not eligible for a refund.  

Visa and documentation requirements vary by nationality and destination. Please review your itinerary and verify your specific travel requirements. Guests should check with a visa service or the consulate of each country they will visit to verify travel documentation, and should reconfirm those requirements with the appropriate consulate(s) 14-30 days prior to the cruise. 

 

 

[cruisemom42]

Personal responsibility appears to be in short supply.

[doublebzz]

Here's a hypothetical:  Cruise ship X departs Singapore for a 10 day cruise to Hong Kong with an intervening port stop at Sanya, China.  Cruise passenger opts to purchase a Ship X's excursion of Sanya for the 6 hour stop-over.  Is a China visa required?

[ChinaShrek]

1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

If all passengers were, for example, from the US and were currently residing in the US and travelling on US passports, that might be possible. With the thousands of possible variations in visa requirements, it is unrealistic to expect HAL to provide them in detail for every cruise. As far as I know, there is no other cruise line or airline that provides such a service. Any passenger booking a cruise must be an adult, and it is appropriate for them to be treated as such.

 

When doing your online check-in, there is a box that you must check that generates the following pop-up notice. Of course, as previously pointed out, passengers can't be forced to read the notice, but that's their fault, not HAL's. The underscoring is mine:

 

Important Visa Notice

This message is provided as a courtesy to all guests regarding potential visa requirements. Some countries require you to obtain and carry with you official documentation, called a visa, before entering that country. It is your sole responsibility to obtain and have available the proper travel documents necessary for your travel, including all associated costs related to obtaining your travel documents. Boarding may be denied if you arrive at the pier without the proper travel documentation, and in that case you are not eligible for a refund.  

Visa and documentation requirements vary by nationality and destination. Please review your itinerary and verify your specific travel requirements. Guests should check with a visa service or the consulate of each country they will visit to verify travel documentation, and should reconfirm those requirements with the appropriate consulate(s) 14-30 days prior to the cruise. 

 

 

 

To me, and I believe, many Americans the above statement is really meaningless.  It doesn't tell me if I need a visa or not.  It doesn't tell me where to get said visa.  It doesn't tell me when to get said visa.  It doesn't tell me how I would go about getting such visa.  The above language is designed to help the cruise line and not the passenger.  The statement says that I supposed to contact the Chinese consulate.  Has anyone tried to call the Chinese consulate? They don't answer the phone!  Now, if the cruise line had a link that said if you are an American click here, and your visa will be in the mail that would be different.

Edited December 2, 2018 by ChinaShrek

[Fouremco]

31 minutes ago, ChinaShrek said:

 

To me, and I believe, many Americans the above statement is really meaningless.  It doesn't tell me if I need a visa or not.  It doesn't tell me where to get said visa.  It doesn't tell me when to get said visa.  It doesn't tell me how I would go about getting such visa.  The above language is designed to help the cruise line and not the passenger.  The statement says that I supposed to contact the Chinese consulate.  Has anyone tried to call the Chinese consulate? They don't answer the phone!  Now, if the cruise line had a link that said if you are an American click here, and your visa will be in the mail that would be different.

LOL. If "many Americans" are incapable of determining their personal visa requirements or how to go about getting their travel documents, they should either use TA's who can walk them through the process or consider staying at home. On the other hand, given the paucity of reporting on passengers actually experiencing problems arising from a lack of appropriate visas, I conclude that the overwhelming majority of American (and other) HAL passengers, with or without a TA, are entirely capable of determining the requirements and acquiring the necessary documents.

[ChinaShrek]

1 minute ago, Fouremco said:

LOL. If "many Americans" are incapable of determining their personal visa requirements or how to go about getting their travel documents, they should either use TA's who can walk them through the process or consider staying at home. On the other hand, given the paucity of reporting on passengers actually experiencing problems arising from a lack of appropriate visas, I conclude that the overwhelming majority of American (and other) HAL passengers, with or without a TA, are entirely capable of determining the requirements and acquiring the necessary documents.

 

The vast majority of cruisers do not need a visa in order to go on a cruise (unless you are arguing that they do).  Furthermore, there have been many posts on CC asking about visa requirements.  Many posts, in fact, not a paucity.  These lost cruisers must seek the help of strangers on CC instead of the cruise line that wants their business.  More people would travel to China, India, or Australia if there weren't any onerous visas or visa requirements.  I believe the cruise line should tell each passenger would they need to travel and not strangers on CC. 

[TAD2005]

When you screw up and fail to get the proper documentation for travel to countries that require passports to be valid for 6 months past your arrival or visa requirements,  and you run into problems, the first thing the person does is try to point blame to everyone else except themselves.   Big problem in the world today, no one takes responsibility for their own actions (or lack of actions).   The problem is always the cruise lines fault "they should have told me" or the country in question, or their TA, etc.   HAL clearly states that the passenger is totally responsible for proper documentation, but if you blow that off, and figure "I'll just wing it and see what happens", things will turn out very bad, and expensive.  If you are incapable of researching the required documents, then use a reputable travel agent.  That's why they earn their money.  Yes, HAL's agents shouldn't have boarded these people at embarkation, but this same type of argument would be happening, due to a news article "Cruise line boots passengers from boarding a luxury cruise".  The cruise line cannot win in this kind of situation.  If they deny boarding, they get blasted in the press.  If they allow boarding and later, boot them off, they get blasted by the press.

Edited December 3, 2018 by TAD2005

[GeorgeCharlie]

2 minutes ago, ChinaShrek said:

 

The vast majority of cruisers do not need a visa in order to go on a cruise (unless you are arguing that they do).  Furthermore, there have been many posts on CC asking about visa requirements.  Many posts, in fact, not a paucity.  These lost cruisers must seek the help of strangers on CC instead of the cruise line that wants their business.  More people would travel to China, India, or Australia if there weren't any onerous visas or visa requirements.  I believe the cruise line should tell each passenger would they need to travel and not strangers on CC. 

 

Cruise lines are essentially providing their passengers transportation.  Do airlines provide visa services to their passengers?