End of Great British Sailaway ?

[Harry Peterson]

1 minute ago, Roger88 said:

Trust me , there are way more "dirty" countries in the world. I mean UK is a paradise in comparison with like 90% of the world. Maybe not as good as the US but still quite clean and comfortable

Sadly though, we’re one of the dirtiest countries in Europe when it comes to litter and dumping rubbish. Sheer laziness - you can watch parents emptying rubbish out of their cars into the street instead of just taking it home. 

[Harry Peterson]

4 minutes ago, brillo said:

You have never been in New York or Boston on St Paddys day if you have not heard nationalistic and jingoistic songs, the Great British sailaway is a bit of fun some of you should loosen up.

Exactly the same in London and Edinburgh too. No problem with that.

 

But are you seriously suggesting it’s ok to play the Dambusters march near a German ship when those raids, necessary though they were, drowned well over a thousand civilians?

[brian1]

7 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Sadly though, we’re one of the dirtiest countries in Europe when it comes to litter and dumping rubbish. Sheer laziness - you can watch parents emptying rubbish out of their cars into the street instead of just taking it home. 

Try living in Southern Italy.The dog poo and fly tipping capital of the world.

[brillo]

Anyone who thinks that the US is cleaner than the UK has never visited the rust belt or the trailer parks on the outskirts of most major towns or cities,

[terrierjohn]

37 minutes ago, kruzseeka said:

 

Surely it's a case of not what is done but how it's done.   Being patriotic does not mean offending other nations.  The Dambusters played whilst parked next to a German ship surely has undertones which are not very subtle especially when accompanied by salutes from some (albeit a few) passengers.  Like Jean, we have witnessed this on more than one occasion.  

Since when I've stopped going - not because I'm not patriotic but because I feel uncomfortable with what I've seen.  I don't think the Sailaway should necessarily disappear and have no wish to be a wet blanket on others' enjoyment - as has been suggested you can always give it a miss.  But the direction it has taken on some occasions has certainly allowed a few to demonstrate their lack of respect for others and inappropriate behaviour and has perhaps been the reason for its demise.  

I don't see why a Sailaway can't be patriotic (songs representing the home nations for example), some iconic songs to remind us of our history but forego those which seem to whip up the unpleasant references to events from which all nations involved have surely moved on.

I understand fully, but if the entertainment staff are deliberately gearing the songs so that they might cause discomfort to passengers on a nearby German ship, then surely the answer is to raise these concerns immediately with P&O, and request that they concentrate on songs which won't offend.

Not one of the anti GBS posters on here has indicated that they have done this, and I suspect that some are simply using anecdotal evidence to make their point, rather than having observed it for themselves.

As I have said before I rarely attend them, but on a recent cruise with my Canadian BIL we did, and he thought it was very entertaining, even if a bit quaint.  He expressed no indication that he thought singing Land of Hope and Glory, or Rule Britannia was xenophobic, nor over redolent of British imperialism.  I wonder why there is such a high percentage of posters on here that do feel discomfort at overt patriotism.

Incidentally I have never known of the passenger choir singing at the GBS,  but my experiences are mainly on P&O's 3 big ships. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by terrierjohn

[wowzz]

5 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

necessary though they were,

Well Harry,  that's a point of view worthy of a whole new thread!

[brillo]

4 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Exactly the same in London and Edinburgh too. No problem with that.

 

But are you seriously suggesting it’s ok to play the Dambusters march near a German ship when those raids, necessary though they were, drowned well over a thousand civilians?

So it is ok to sing Irish rebel songs in British cities but not to have the Great British sailaway on P&O ships.

 

[wowzz]

1 minute ago, terrierjohn said:

overt patriotism

I think there is a distinction to be made between overt patriotism and xenophobia,  and, at times, the GB SA crossed that line. 

[kruzseeka]

14 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I understand fully, but if the entertainment staff are deliberately gearing the songs so that they might cause discomfort to passengers on a nearby German ship, then surely the answer is to raise these concerns immediately with P&O, and request that they concentrate on songs which won't offend.

Not one of the anti GBS posters on here has indicated that they have done this, and I suspect that some are simply using anecdotal evidence to make their point, rather than having observed it for themselves.

As I have said before I rarely attend them, but on a recent cruise with my Canadian BIL we did, and he thought it was very entertaining, even if a bit quaint.  He expressed no indication that he thought singing Land of Hope and Glory, or Rule Britannia was xenophobic, nor over redolent of British imperialism.  I wonder why there is such a high percentage of posters on here that do feel discomfort at overt patriotism.

Incidentally I have never known of the passenger choir singing at the GBS,  but my experiences are mainly on P&O's 3 big ships. 

Fyi I did make a point of expressing my views on the customer questionnaire.  With reference to the high % of posters uncomfortable with overt expressions of nationalism - that's a non sequitur in my case.  Discomfort in the 'how' expressed rather than whether or not expressed is the essential difference in my book.  

Edited February 22, 2020 by kruzseeka

[Harry Peterson]

35 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Well Harry,  that's a point of view worthy of a whole new thread!

I take your point entirely. But I was trying, with the use of those words, to fend off yet another argument about something to which there is probably no answer.

[Harry Peterson]

39 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Not one of the anti GBS posters on here........

 

........I wonder why there is such a high percentage of posters on here that do feel discomfort at overt patriotism.

 

Not sure people are necessarily anti-GBS - just against being deliberately offensive.

 

On the second point, maybe some of us have moved on since Suez? And maybe also are only too aware of what happened in the 1930s and is already happening again now. Churchill wanted a united Europe, as did Thatcher. They weren’t fools.

[terrierjohn]

18 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Not sure people are necessarily anti-GBS - just against being deliberately offensive.

 

On the second point, maybe some of us have moved on since Suez? And maybe also are only too aware of what happened in the 1930s and is already happening again now. Churchill wanted a united Europe, as did Thatcher. They weren’t fools.

Harry, I think that trying to link the singing of patriotic songs at the GBS with the rise of facism in Europe, is a bit extreme even for you.

I dont know which papers you're obtaining you're views from, but I do think the Mail would be a far safer option for you.😉

[Bazrat]

3 hours ago, Harry Peterson said:

 

 

Bazrat, there are two very sensible, well reasoned posts there from Jean and Wowzz which you've somehow misinterpreted as suggesting not being proud to be British.  That's a very peculiar view of life you have there!

 

It's perfectly possible to be proud of one's country without ostentatious, and sometimes offensive, displays.  Think for example some football matches, and some beach holidays, where some British people (note the use of the word 'some') bring disgrace on the country by what they appear to see as patriotism.  

 

You can be patriotic without being offensive.

Actually you interpreted the post to suit you own agenda my was a reasoned response.

[jeanlyon]

1 hour ago, terrierjohn said:

I understand fully, but if the entertainment staff are deliberately gearing the songs so that they might cause discomfort to passengers on a nearby German ship, then surely the answer is to raise these concerns immediately with P&O, and request that they concentrate on songs which won't offend.

Not one of the anti GBS posters on here has indicated that they have done this, and I suspect that some are simply using anecdotal evidence to make their point, rather than having observed it for themselves.

As I have said before I rarely attend them, but on a recent cruise with my Canadian BIL we did, and he thought it was very entertaining, even if a bit quaint.  He expressed no indication that he thought singing Land of Hope and Glory, or Rule Britannia was xenophobic, nor over redolent of British imperialism.  I wonder why there is such a high percentage of posters on here that do feel discomfort at overt patriotism.

Incidentally I have never known of the passenger choir singing at the GBS,  but my experiences are mainly on P&O's 3 big ships. 

 

On both Oriana and Aurora.  We don't do the big ships.

 

It's not discomfort at patriotism, it's discomfort as said above of singing WWII songs when you are next to a German ship.  It's ludicrous.

[Harry Peterson]

19 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Harry, I think that trying to link the singing of patriotic songs at the GBS with the rise of facism in Europe, is a bit extreme even for you.

I dont know which papers you're obtaining you're views from, but I do think the Mail would be a far safer option for you.😉

Sorry. No link intended between the two. Just a general comment on the dangers of nationalism and populist leaders.

[Selbourne]

We have always found the sailaways to be tacky, but know that many like them and I would defend P&O’s right to continue them. Deliberately provocative (e.g. anti German) songs are unacceptable though and an entertainment host encouraging Nazi salutes should have been dismissed IMHO. If I hear ‘The White Cliffs of Dover’ being sung on a P&O ship one more time I shall throw myself overboard. 
 

We fondly remember the streamers on departure from Southampton, with the large brass band on the quayside, on our first cruise in 1996 and were sad to see them go. We wouldn’t do flag waving but surely an environmentally friendly version could be found if that’s what people want?

 

One thing I do feel though is that it is very sad nowadays that being patriotic is seen as being a bad thing. I have always noticed that the Scots and Welsh are always (rightly) very proud to come from their countries, yet if you are English it tends to get lost in the overall ‘British’ banner, for fear of offending those from Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. That’s wrong. The problem has been made worse by the English Flag now having unfortunate associations with football hooligans and far right groups. I am English and very proud of it, so I can live with some patriotic music, but it’s a shame that we have the most turgid and dreary national anthem. My favourite is the Italian one. Now that’s a jolly tune!

[Bazrat]

19 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

We have always found the sailaways to be tacky, but know that many like them and I would defend P&O’s right to continue them. Deliberately provocative (e.g. anti German) songs are unacceptable though and an entertainment host encouraging Nazi salutes should have been dismissed IMHO. If I hear ‘The White Cliffs of Dover’ being sung on a P&O ship one more time I shall throw myself overboard. 
 

We fondly remember the streamers on departure from Southampton, with the large brass band on the quayside, on our first cruise in 1996 and were sad to see them go. We wouldn’t do flag waving but surely an environmentally friendly version could be found if that’s what people want?

 

One thing I do feel though is that it is very sad nowadays that being patriotic is seen as being a bad thing. I have always noticed that the Scots and Welsh are always (rightly) very proud to come from their countries, yet if you are English it tends to get lost in the overall ‘British’ banner, for fear of offending those from Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. That’s wrong. The problem has been made worse by the English Flag now having unfortunate associations with football hooligans and far right groups. I am English and very proud of it, so I can live with some patriotic music, but it’s a shame that we have the most turgid and dreary national anthem. My favourite is the Italian one. Now that’s a jolly tune!

Well said I agree 100% with you sentiment 

[Bazrat]

44 minutes ago, jeanlyon said:

 

On both Oriana and Aurora.  We don't do the big ships.

 

It's not discomfort at patriotism, it's discomfort as said above of singing WWII songs when you are next to a German ship.  It's ludicrous.

I was rather surprised to hear you say you heard WW2 songs because the younger generation  wouldn’t have a clue what they was playing 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Bazrat

[Bazrat]

44 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Sorry. No link intended between the two. Just a general comment on the dangers of nationalism and populist leaders.

Ok the dangers of nationalism weighs heavily on your shoulders,and a bit of flag waving is the slippery slope

[Harry Peterson]

9 minutes ago, Bazrat said:

Ok the dangers of nationalism weighs heavily on your shoulders,and a bit of flag waving is the slippery slope

If you say so - but that's your view, not mine.

[Adawn47]

Playing the National Anthem of Germany could also offend some sensibilities (London Pride)? 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Adawn47

[kruzseeka]

2 hours ago, Selbourne said:

We have always found the sailaways to be tacky, but know that many like them and I would defend P&O’s right to continue them. Deliberately provocative (e.g. anti German) songs are unacceptable though and an entertainment host encouraging Nazi salutes should have been dismissed IMHO. If I hear ‘The White Cliffs of Dover’ being sung on a P&O ship one more time I shall throw myself overboard. 
 

We fondly remember the streamers on departure from Southampton, with the large brass band on the quayside, on our first cruise in 1996 and were sad to see them go. We wouldn’t do flag waving but surely an environmentally friendly version could be found if that’s what people want?

 

One thing I do feel though is that it is very sad nowadays that being patriotic is seen as being a bad thing. I have always noticed that the Scots and Welsh are always (rightly) very proud to come from their countries, yet if you are English it tends to get lost in the overall ‘British’ banner, for fear of offending those from Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. That’s wrong. The problem has been made worse by the English Flag now having unfortunate associations with football hooligans and far right groups. I am English and very proud of it, so I can live with some patriotic music, but it’s a shame that we have the most turgid and dreary national anthem. My favourite is the Italian one. Now that’s a jolly tune!

 

I totally agree.  When I hear the Scots, Welsh and Irish singing their anthems at the start of the Rugby, I feel quite emotional and moved by the singing and the stirring music.  Like you it's such a pity our anthem isn't more stirring!  

[Bazrat]

4 hours ago, Harry Peterson said:

Exactly the same in London and Edinburgh too. No problem with that.

 

But are you seriously suggesting it’s ok to play the Dambusters march near a German ship when those raids, necessary though they were, drowned well over a thousand civilians?

Let’s forget about the atrocities the Germans did in the war as for the dam busters theme when was the film last time it was on tv so how are the younger generation to know what’s it all about.

[Bazrat]

2 hours ago, Harry Peterson said:

If you say so - but that's your view, not mine.

Actually reread your posts they seam a bit paranoid over the GBS

[jeanlyon]

22 minutes ago, Bazrat said:

Let’s forget about the atrocities the Germans did in the war as for the dam busters theme when was the film last time it was on tv so how are the younger generation to know what’s it all about.

Err probably this Christmas!!  🤣