Zaandam and Rotterdam Situation (merged topics starting March 22, 2020)

[capriccio]

1 hour ago, rabidstoat said:

2. There are currently 4 deaths on the ship, but it's not been said if they were coronavirus-related or not.

 

A Sun-Sentinel article included a quote from a relative of one of the dead passengers (an American) that the family had been informed that he died from a heart attack or an aneurysm, not coronavirus.

[PelicanBill]

I think they can't know what the deaths were really caused by without a supervising medical professional statement and/or autopsy.  Many deaths in the US have already happened from Covid-19 but were recorded as pulmonary failure, pneumonia, etc.  as a result of low testing.

[trajan]

 

15 minutes ago, PelicanBill said:

The ship has already been sailing FAR too long without ability to transfer people to hospitals. And they are dying on board. This is a humanitarian situation.  The closest US port should be accepting anyone who needs critical care as soon as there is ability to transfer (Key West, for example). The rest should be accepted by a port capable of handling the situation reasonable safely.  Passengers need to be screened, those able to go home sent home, those needing quarantine to be moved to a facility.  The Florida Governor and port authorities should all be fired for their failures - fair weather friends to cruising only.  It is so absurd that people are afraid of these ships while THOUSANDS of people arrive at their airports every day.

This, 100%. 
I’m amazed at the selfishness and lack of leadership on this issue. Not sure why I thought this but I while I wasn’t surprised at the lack of help from South American countries, I’m shocked to see the reaction in FL. Especially from the elected officials. Been eye opening.

[gfh77665]

What solution has Orlando Ashford, president of Holland America offered anyone?? Has HAL offered to pay for ALL treatement and care costs involved for whoever takes them? I understand the majority on board are foriegn nationals, is this true? If so, has the countries of origin offered to take their people back, or at least pay ALL treatement and care costs involved for whoever takes them? 

[css5]

For those wishing to watch live, the Broward County Commissioners meeting where they are supposed to discuss this issue, here is a link:

(meeting started at 10 - topic not yet discussed)

 

https://www.broward.org/Commission/Meetings/Pages/default.aspx#Viewing Options

 

[geneandmary]

The ship behind them is the Insignia.

 

https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=9156527

[capriccio]

19 minutes ago, Linda VH said:

I think the main issue with us Floridians is a plan for ALL the passengers - not just to take the obviously I’ll to treatment in our overwhelmed health care facilities but where to quarantine and feed etc the rest for at least 2 weeks.  

 

I am certain that is what is under discussion and planning.  I encourage everyone to read the Port Everglades update mentioned earlier especially the highlighted section:  https://www.porteverglades.net/zaandam-update/

 

Since I can't insert extended quotes, it includes the following Q&A sections:

• What's the ship's original itinerary?
• How many passengers and where are they coming from?
• What is the travel time from the Canal to Port Everglades?
• What are the Federal, State and Local Agencies included in the Unified Command at the Port?
• What are the Unified Command's requirements that must be addressed in any plan submitted by a cruise line before a cruise ship is allowed to enter Port Everglades?
• How long has Holland America Line been a customer of Port Everglades?
• How much do we receive in income from Holland America?

[3rdGenCunarder]

10 minutes ago, gfh77665 said:

What solution has Orlando Ashford, president of Holland America offered anyone?? Has HAL offered to pay for ALL treatement and care costs involved for whoever takes them? I understand the majority on board are foriegn nationals, is this true? If so, has the countries of origin offered to take their people back, or at least pay ALL treatement and care costs involved for whoever takes them? 

 

For all we know he does have some solutions/suggestions to offer. There's a lot of negotiating behind the scenes, and we will probably never know about most of it. If I went into negotiations with potential plans, I wouldn't talk about it in my press releases. "We could do this or we could do that..." and then it isn't done and people will ask why not and say he failed to make it happen. 

[geocruiser]

6 minutes ago, conwakr said:

We don't know how many are sick.  So assuming that 2,000 people need to be housed, fed, and monitored in Florida may not be an accurate assumption. And especially now...a very different time than a month ago or even 3 weeks ago.  I think we all just need to wait and see. The CDC will want information from the ship's doctors I am sure.  

That is true, we don't really know the numbers of the sick..  Also, once the ship dock in Florida, the PAX can be transported to a different part of Florida, or a different state ,or back to their home country for care or quarantine.  Yes, there may be some who will too much care to move then very far.  But most of the ship's PAX will not need that type of care.  Also, if the ship stays docked, maybe the sick PAX can stay on board the ship with the medical team that the Zaandam has and not be transferred to a local hospital.  They would have to have the equipment to serve them.

But they need to dock, so transfer can happen. 

[trajan]

19 minutes ago, gfh77665 said:

What solution has Orlando Ashford, president of Holland America offered anyone?? Has HAL offered to pay for ALL treatement and care costs involved for whoever takes them? I understand the majority on board are foriegn nationals, is this true? If so, has the countries of origin offered to take their people back, or at least pay ALL treatement and care costs involved for whoever takes them? 

If you wanna play that game then why not demand that the state of Florida pay the medical bills for every visitor Florida hosted in the past month who caught the virus in Florida? That sounds fair.

Edited March 31, 2020 by trajan

[iancal]

Should not the only question be how do we help these distressed people at see and what arrangements do we have to make in advance of their arrival to deal with the issue (s).

 

I am absolutely astonished at the number of posts that seem to place cost and who will pay above a humanitarian act.  It speaks volumes. 

 

Sad really that it is come to this.   This is exactly the time to show some backbone and some compassion.  And what does it matter if those on ships are Floridians, Americans, or some other nationality.  If you were holding a hand out to someone who was drowning would you ask those questions before helping them out?

When the coast guard rescues someone at see or lifts them off a ship for urgent medical care do they ask who is paying and where they live?  No.

Edited March 31, 2020 by iancal

[Max2003]

17 minutes ago, geneandmary said:

The ship behind them is the Insignia.

 

https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=9156527

Thanks!  That is a better site than the one I have been using!  

 

The Insignia is one of the R class now Oceana.  I wonder where she has been.

[conwakr]

1 minute ago, trajan said:

If you wanna play that game then why not demand that the state of Florida pay the medical bills for every guest Florida hosted in the past month who caught the virus in Florida? That sounds fair.

Agree - I don't think this current climate is the time when businesses are liable...otherwise you'd have grocery store chains liable, hotel chains liable, airlines liable, ....these ships left before much was known and while prognosticators were talking about pandemic it was never clear if it would even become a global issue but people tend to forget that fact in the heat of the moment. Right now the remaining ships and there are others that are coming into port just need support from the US and not finger pointing about who is liable or who is going to pay etc etc. It is now humanitarian effort.  

[capriccio]

26 minutes ago, gfh77665 said:

 I understand the majority on board are foriegn nationals, is this true?

 

According to the Port Everglades update: There are 1,243 passengers aboard the Zaandam, including 305 U.S. citizens and 247 Canadians. There are 49 Florida residents on board, including several Broward County residents.

 

https://www.porteverglades.net/zaandam-update/

 

 

[capriccio]

4 minutes ago, LMaxwell said:

 

The conditions that HAL needs to meet were published yesterday by Port Everglades.  I have asked for days what HAL's plan is and been shouted down. 

 

This may be deleted as a too lengthy quote (I hope not since it is information provided by a public entity) but given that some posters haven't read the pertinent parts of the update, here goes:

 

What are the Unified Command's requirements that must be addressed in any plan submitted by a cruise line before a cruise ship is allowed to enter Port Everglades?

The Unified Command has developed a list of conditions that would need to be addressed in any Plan submitted by a cruise line. They include:   Full compliance with all regulatory requirements of U.S. Coast Guard, U.S. Customs and Border Protection as well as the U.S. Centers Disease Control and Prevention. All illnesses, conditions, medical concerns and or items of concern must be accurately disclosed and documented. Any last-minute disclosures when the vessel is in transit to the berth or dockside will suspend all operations until the necessary fact finding is completed to the satisfaction of those in the Unified Command. The cruise line, at its expense, will provide all Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) to all responders.  Temperature readings are for all disembarking crew and passengers before U.S. Customs and Border Protection processing. The cruise line, at its expense shall secure and arrange for private ambulatory transport.  The cruise line shall make all arrangements for care with the medical facilities.   To minimize exposure to shore staff, responders and the facility, as well as expedite transport by shuttle or bus or charter aircraft, passengers will leave the vessel with one personal item that holds only essential items.  The cruise line, at its expense, will sanitize all other luggage in a location provided by the receiving facility and arrange for reunification of the luggage as soon as possible.   The cruise line, at its expense, shall arrange for the disposal of all medical and agricultural waste in accordance with federal regulations.  To prevent cross contamination from spreading between the passengers, crew and into the local community, the cruise line will be required to sanitize the receiving facility, which may also include, but is not limited to, any equipment used by first responders, the facility, exposed equipment used by contractors and any hired equipment used for transportation of passengers. No less than 24 hours in advance of the start of debarkation, the cruise line will present a security plan for review and approval  to the Unified Command that demonstrates how passengers will debark orderly, safely and in compliance with current health advisories (i.e. social distancing). Failure to maintain good order may result in an immediate suspension of the debarkation until the situation is under control. All debarking passengers and crew must have a final, verifiable, travel itinerary prior to being allowed to debark the vessel.

[AmBear]

2 minutes ago, conwakr said:

Agree - I don't think this current climate is the time when businesses are liable...otherwise you'd have grocery store chains liable, hotel chains liable, airlines liable, ....these ships left before much was known and while prognosticators were talking about pandemic it was never clear if it would even become a global issue but people tend to forget that fact in the heat of the moment. Right now the remaining ships and there are others that are coming into port just need support from the US and not finger pointing about who is liable or who is going to pay etc etc. It is now humanitarian effort.  

Humanitarian, OK, I don't think anyone would disagree, but,,,,

it seems too many are just demanding, and refusing to accept the obvious,

This area of Florida is already max'ed out! Its got nothing to do with this area being cold, indifferent to these people, its about whether this could make it worse for everyone!

There isn't hospital beds just waiting for the next person to enter sick!

Demanding this ship ports in the middle of a HOT ZONE just might make it worse for these cruisers! 

[LMaxwell]

The Twitter Link from the Broward County Page seems to work the best.  I do not have Twitter but can view it live 

 

https://twitter.com/BrowardCounty

[lvz2cruz]

2 minutes ago, AmBear said:

Humanitarian, OK, I don't think anyone would disagree, but,,,,

it seems too many are just demanding, and refusing to accept the obvious,

This area of Florida is already max'ed out! Its got nothing to do with this area being cold, indifferent to these people, its about whether this could make it worse for everyone!

There isn't hospital beds just waiting for the next person to enter sick!

Demanding this ship ports in the middle of a HOT ZONE just might make it worse for these cruisers! 

I have thought this for a few days.   If I was on that ship, I would be eager to get off, but I would have qualms about the care I would receive if was critical and also the high rate of spread.  I would not want to be in NY or S Florida at this time.

[Nymich]

3 minutes ago, AmBear said:

Humanitarian, OK, I don't think anyone would disagree, but,,,,

it seems too many are just demanding, and refusing to accept the obvious,

This area of Florida is already max'ed out! Its got nothing to do with this area being cold, indifferent to these people, its about whether this could make it worse for everyone!

There isn't hospital beds just waiting for the next person to enter sick!

Demanding this ship ports in the middle of a HOT ZONE just might make it worse for these cruisers! 

Good point.  Anyone who watched the video of the Grand Princess knows how tough it is for any area.  That being said they have to come in.   I am concerned about the long term damage to the industry.  in many ways the lines have been singled out and perhaps treated unfairly because of serious situations like this one.

[conwakr]

2 minutes ago, AmBear said:

 

Demanding this ship ports in the middle of a HOT ZONE just might make it worse for these cruisers! 

These people aren't in a hospital right now...we simply don't know how many people need hospitalization immediately.  I know in my state there is "hospital" sharing plan in place with areas of the state that have extremely low cases of coronavirus and empty intensive care beds because the south east side of the state is a severe hotspot but the spread is not uniform throughout the state.   I'm sure the state of Florida has smart people who can figure it out. Again, the key will be just how many people on these ships coming into Florida have people who are sick enough to need medical attention. 

[conwakr]

3 minutes ago, lvz2cruz said:

I have thought this for a few days.   If I was on that ship, I would be eager to get off, but I would have qualms about the care I would receive if was critical and also the high rate of spread.  I would not want to be in NY or S Florida at this time.

Me too.  I'm sure those that are healthy want to get the heck home especially if home is not in a hotspot city. 

[AmBear]

1 minute ago, lvz2cruz said:

I have thought this for a few days.   If I was on that ship, I would be eager to get off, but I would have qualms about the care I would receive if was critical and also the high rate of spread.  I would not want to be in NY or S Florida at this time.

Agreed, just getting the cruisers off isn't enough, they need to be removed into a safe as possible environment which the Ft Lauderdale area doesn't 'in my opinion' seem to be!

 

[mamaofami]

This is a terrible situation for those onboard the Zandam and their worried families. The governor of Florida has done a terrible job, allowing those spring break kids on the beaches and now denying these people the ability to dock in Ft.Lauderdale. Ciities in Florida , until recently, had some restrictions while others had none. We recently returned from Florida and know first hand how restrictions differed from

one city to the next.

 

About a month ago , we met an ER doctor from Miami hospital before anything had happened there and they were busy preparing for this.

 

My own opinion is Florida should extend a hand to these stranded passengers and do whatever is necessary to protect them and Floridians from this virus.

[LMaxwell]

9 minutes ago, AmBear said:

Humanitarian, OK, I don't think anyone would disagree, but,,,,

it seems too many are just demanding, and refusing to accept the obvious,

This area of Florida is already max'ed out! Its got nothing to do with this area being cold, indifferent to these people, its about whether this could make it worse for everyone!

There isn't hospital beds just waiting for the next person to enter sick!

Demanding this ship ports in the middle of a HOT ZONE just might make it worse for these cruisers! 

 

Here is a link to cases as of 3/30 in South Florida area.  These are the immediate area and outwards up to about 20 miles south/west.  You are right, this is a HOT zone and hospitals are already pleading with the public for donations of PPE.  Of course people want the best possible outcome for Zaandam and Rotterdam, but they are NOT taking in the realities of the situation in this area when being negative.  

 

https://www.local10.com/news/local/2020/03/29/the-numbers-how-many-coronavirus-cases-in-my-city/

[AmBear]

1 minute ago, conwakr said:

These people aren't in a hospital right now...we simply don't know how many people need hospitalization immediately.  I know in my state there is "hospital" sharing plan in place with areas of the state that have extremely low cases of coronavirus and empty intensive care beds because the south east side of the state is a severe hotspot but the spread is not uniform throughout the state.   I'm sure the state of Florida has smart people who can figure it out. Again, the key will be just how many people on these ships coming into Florida have people who are sick enough to need medical attention. 

Yes, but understand this area is a hot zone, hit hard by the virus, there simply isn't the beds, equipment waiting for over 100 sick, which has been reported!

These cruisers deserve a location they can be taken care of, not thrown into the middle of an already chaotic situation in this area!