Are vaccines the light at the end of the tunnel?

[C-Dragons]

On 4/11/2021 at 9:27 AM, TeeRick said:

Here is a recent journal publication on lingering COVID symptoms at 8 months - with health care workers (median age 43) who had mild cases.  Mainly fatigue, loss of taste and smell, and shortness of breath.  To those of you that know people who decide not to get a vaccine because they think they are young and healthy and don't need one, tell them about this.

 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778528

 

 

Our next door neighbor, a husband and father of 2 young children, mid-thirties and was in excellent health, contracted the virus last summer. His loss of taste and smell has come back, be he is still experiencing fatigue. I am afraid he will end up being a “long hauler”, it's so sad.

I've read articles that have described the symptoms of long haulers as being similar to those who have Fibromyalgia. One of things they have to deal with is the depression that comes from the realization that their lives may never be the same again.

I agree that people who are hesitant to get the vaccine should be warned of all the possible long term effects of getting Covid.

[4774Papa]

On 4/6/2021 at 9:29 AM, terrydtx said:

Texas eliminated mask mandates and opened all businesses 100% 4 weeks ago and our state continues to trend down for positive tested cases. Here in San Antonio our running 7 day averages for positivity in 2% or less compared to January where it was over 10%. We also are approaching the 34% of all adults in our county have at least one vaccination and 21% fully vaccinated with both shots. Those vaccination numbers are increasing every day by about 12,000. Also our schools have been open most of this school year with no huge spread of the virus.

I visited Austin and Arlington, Texas for four days last week and found Texas like I always find it, positive, upbeat, optimistic and moving on down the road.  I was born there and have several relatives there.  Went to my first cousins funeral.  Masking in Public is still very common, as it is here in South Georgia.  Restaurants are back to normal, with no special reduced numbers.   Every  time we dined out, we were in nearly full restaurants.

Of course, flying there and while in airports changing planes, masking was mandatory.

Love that state.

[K.T.B.]

1 hour ago, C-Dragons said:

Our next door neighbor, a husband and father of 2 young children, mid-thirties and was in excellent health, contracted the virus last summer. His loss of taste and smell has come back, be he is still experiencing fatigue. I am afraid he will end up being a “long hauler”, it's so sad.

I've read articles that have described the symptoms of long haulers as being similar to those who have Fibromyalgia. One of things they have to deal with is the depression that comes from the realization that their lives may never be the same again.

I agree that people who are hesitant to get the vaccine should be warned of all the possible long term effects of getting Covid.

 

They're aware, they just don't care nor do they think they'd ever get infected.  I have family members (well, by way of marriage) who got mild cases of it, but still have lingering affects.  They still think it's all overblown and just left media hyping it up.  Meanwhile they still can't taste much of anything.

[NMTraveller]

8 hours ago, TeeRick said:

There has been some recent data released on the lower efficacy of China's Sinovac COVID vaccine called CoronaVac.  This info has been tightly controlled so it was unusual for a Chinese official to comment.

https://apnews.com/article/beijing-immunizations-chengdu-coronavirus-pandemic-china-675bcb6b5710c7329823148ffbff6ef9

 

The Sinovac Covid vaccine is unlike other approved vaccines from a technology standpoint.  It is an inactivated version of the actual SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus. 

 

Here is one potential issue for cruising as many crew members come from some of these countries:

 

"Several Asian countries including Singapore, Malaysia and the Philippines have signed deals with Sinovac, and in January 2021 Indonesia began rolling out its mass vaccination campaign with their vaccine."  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55212787

 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-sinovac-vaccine-efficacy-effective-against-covid-with-symptoms-coronavac-2021-4

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-11/sinovac-shot-cuts-risk-of-symptomatic-covid-in-half-in-key-study

Interesting.

 

So far it seems like the Pfizer and Moderna are the most effective.  J&J in the middle.  And then the Chinese vaccine.  Early on there were reports that the Chinese were spying on the USA vaccine makers.  Apparently that did not pan out for them.  Aren't the Chinese vaccines based upon older tech?

 

Would you consider the J&J vaccine or hold out for the Moderna or Pfizer?   Hypothetical question.

 

[nocl]

4 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

Interesting.

 

So far it seems like the Pfizer and Moderna are the most effective.  J&J in the middle.  And then the Chinese vaccine.  Early on there were reports that the Chinese were spying on the USA vaccine makers.  Apparently that did not pan out for them.  Aren't the Chinese vaccines based upon older tech?

 

Would you consider the J&J vaccine or hold out for the Moderna or Pfizer?   Hypothetical question.

 

I would rate AZ as better than Sinovac because it has very poor efficacy apparently against the original strain.

 

Personally I would prefer and have gotten Pfizer (second shot tomorrow), then Moderna and then J&J

Edited April 12, 2021 by nocl

[NMTraveller]

On 4/11/2021 at 8:06 AM, TeeRick said:

Even though I personally spent a career working on developing vaccines, I still have close family members who to this point have decided not to get vaccinated.  One is a health care worker in her early 50's exposed to other home care workers and nurses every day.   As does my brother and two of my brother-in-laws.  I have tried to convince all of them to get vaccinated. I have found that although all are educated and successful, their understanding of even basic science and medicine is minimal at best. It is a source of frustration to me.  But ultimately their decisions.  

I have a couple of family members who are not getting the shot.  Unfortunately they believe the purveyors of conspiracy theories.  Arguing or convincing them seems pointless as they go off of the deep end.

 

I just got my 2nd Moderna jab on Friday.

 

 

[KWW88]

Just now, NMTraveller said:

I have a couple of family members who are not getting the shot.  Unfortunately they believe the purveyors of conspiracy theories.  Arguing or convincing them seems pointless as they go off of the deep end.

 

I just got my 2nd Moderna jab on Friday.

 

 

Good on you!  I am so looking forward to my second Bill Gates chip injection on May 3!!!

[TeeRick]

6 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

Interesting.

 

So far it seems like the Pfizer and Moderna are the most effective.  J&J in the middle.  And then the Chinese vaccine.  Early on there were reports that the Chinese were spying on the USA vaccine makers.  Apparently that did not pan out for them.  Aren't the Chinese vaccines based upon older tech?

 

Would you consider the J&J vaccine or hold out for the Moderna or Pfizer?   Hypothetical question.

 

The vaccines from Sinovac in China are a different technology (an older one) as I said in my previous post.  Inactivated whole virus.  So it likely does not get into your cells and get presented back to the immune system.  I would make an educated guess that it therefore does not induce a complete immune response with strong T Cell activation -perhaps just antibodies.  

 

Your are asking my opinion on the other 3 EUA vaccines in the US.  Here it is but just one person's opinion.   First thing to say is that I would take any of them if I had the chance.   Summary table for the 3 vaccines:

https://www.astho.org/COVID-19/Vaccine-Comparison/

 

If I had a choice I would prefer an mRNA vaccine from either Pfizer or Moderna equally. 

I believe that these two mRNA vaccines are pretty much equivalent vaccine technology but there is a dose difference in their formulations (30 ug P vs 100 ug M) and timing difference between doses (3 week P vs 4 week M).  But IMO none of that matters much.   I got Moderna but I would be happy with Pfizer equally.  

 

The J&J vaccine one shot is an advantage for a lot of hesitant people.  But I am slightly worried that there is a future chance that a second shot (boost) will be needed.  That is why I would rather take one of the two shot mRNA vaccines.    But the J&J vaccine is a very good one too. The human adenovirus vector technology for J&J is also used by the Russian Sputnik V vaccine (2 shots).  A chimpanzee adenovirus technology is used for the AZ/Oxford  vaccine.  Not sure at all if this species difference is a possibility for some of the rare side effects with this vaccine.  It will all be discussed in the upcoming US EUA meetings I'm sure.

 

 

[JRG]

26 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Your are asking my opinion on the other 3 EUA vaccines in the US.  Here it is but just one person's opinion.

 

Can I ask your opinion about the episode of 60 minutes  "The Last Pandemic" which aired yesterday.

 

I was surprised to learn that the rapid development of our current Covid19 vaccines originated from the military under the Pentagon programs,  if I understood the program accurately.

 

The possibility that we may have a Super-Vaccine in the near future to combat all forms of the Corona family of viruses would seem to be the brightest "Light at the End of the Tunnel"

 

Share your thoughts if you've seen this because it seems too good to be true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by JRG

[HS2BS]

Considering that the the Director of China Center for Disease Control, GAO Fu said, “Chinese vaccines don’t have very high protection rates”. These vaccines were sent/used by countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Philippines, Mexico and Brazil, some of the same countries that a vast number of the cruise ship crews come from. 
Given the admission from China that there vaccine may only be 25% effective, should Celebrity and the cruising community be concerned when Celebrity is touting 100% vaccinated crew?

 

Hal

[nocl]

1 hour ago, JRG said:

 

Can I ask your opinion about the episode of 60 minutes  "The Last Pandemic" which aired yesterday.

 

I was surprised to learn that the rapid development of our current Covid19 vaccines originated from the military under the Pentagon programs,  if I understood the program accurately.

 

The possibility that we may have a Super-Vaccine in the near future to combat all forms of the Corona family of viruses would seem to be the brightest "Light at the End of the Tunnel"

 

Share your thoughts if you've seen this because it seems too good to be true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not sure what the program said but the mRNA technology existed prior to the COVID outbreak and had been tried in both oncology and some other vaccines (as of yet none have made into an approved product).

 

Pfizer paid for its vaccine on its own and did not have military involvement.

 

The military was involved in Operation Warpspeed  The program through which money was paid to companies for COVID vaccine development included funding  for the Moderna, Novavax, J&J and Astra Zeneca.

 

It is my understanding that a broad spectrum corona virus is under development at NIH.  That is supposedly generates a greater antibody response than any of the currently approved vaccines and may be able to deal with not only all of the variants but other Corona Viruses as well.  It is still early stage.

[JRG]

31 minutes ago, nocl said:

Not sure what the program said but the mRNA technology existed prior to the COVID outbreak and had been tried in both oncology and some other vaccines (as of yet none have made into an approved product).

 

I'm not referring to the funding.   The program acknowledges that the technology existed before Covid-19 and purportedly was being tested or used for rapid vaccine development for military purpose to protect against viruses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by JRG

[markeb]

8 minutes ago, JRG said:

 

I'm not referring to the funding.   The program acknowledges that the technology existed before Covid-19 and purportedly was being tested or used for rapid vaccine development for military purpose to protect against viruses.

 

 

I haven't watched the segment yet, but yes, my understanding is that much of the early research and technology here was in fact funded by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency). It's what they do, for the most part. DARPA dates back to the US response to Sputnik in the late 50's, and its niche is funding cutting edge applied research outside of traditional defense acquisition. Generally high risk/high probability of failure that has no real home in the traditional systems, where your budget gets slashed if you take too many risks and fail. They've done some crazy things that just seemed to have no pathway forward, which would have included a lot of DNA and RNA vaccines until very recently (absence of good alternatives arguably cut the developmental risk a lot...). 

 

For instance, in 2017 they funded a project called Pandemic Prevention Platform (P3) aimed at developing a suite of capabilities to an emerging pandemic based on rapid nucleic acid analysis and largely centered around antibodies in 60 days or less. No one in their right mind would fund that in traditional government R&D and acquisition. You couldn't even get the contract let without significant relief from contract regulations in 60 days!

[Ken the cruiser]

2 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

I haven't watched the segment yet, but yes, my understanding is that much of the early research and technology here was in fact funded by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency). It's what they do, for the most part. DARPA dates back to the US response to Sputnik in the late 50's, and its niche is funding cutting edge applied research outside of traditional defense acquisition. Generally high risk/high probability of failure that has no real home in the traditional systems, where your budget gets slashed if you take too many risks and fail. They've done some crazy things that just seemed to have no pathway forward, which would have included a lot of DNA and RNA vaccines until very recently (absence of good alternatives arguably cut the developmental risk a lot...). 

 

For instance, in 2017 they funded a project called Pandemic Prevention Platform (P3) aimed at developing a suite of capabilities to an emerging pandemic based on rapid nucleic acid analysis and largely centered around antibodies in 60 days or less. No one in their right mind would fund that in traditional government R&D and acquisition. You couldn't even get the contract let without significant relief from contract regulations in 60 days!

Just a little trivia about DARPA, they were responsible for developing the ARPANET. They have been doing cutting edge stuff for a long time!

[cangelmd]

3 hours ago, KWW88 said:

Good on you!  I am so looking forward to my second Bill Gates chip injection on May 3!!!

Really? Bill contacted me last night, but, darn it, he still is cutting me out of his will.

 

 I wish I could find the link, his daughter is in med school, so she was vaccinated early as she is in clinical rotations. She tweeted some jabs at her dad and how busy he is getting the chips to be injected.

[K.T.B.]

All I know is, since I got vaccinated, my cellphone is getting great reception now!  Just a coincidence I'm sure.

[nocl]

2 hours ago, JRG said:

 

I'm not referring to the funding.   The program acknowledges that the technology existed before Covid-19 and purportedly was being tested or used for rapid vaccine development for military purpose to protect against viruses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they are saying that the military had funded some research in the past that helped lead to the current state of mRNA technology then I would agree. DARPA funded a project that Moderna was involved in back in 2013 when it provided 25 million in financial support to pursue MRNA antibody drugs and vaccine

 

But clearly Moderna, and Pfizer's partner BioNtech created and has patents for the technology and the vaccines developed.  If they are saying that the military created the vaccines  or was the source of the technology used I would disagree.

 

After all DARPA has a lot of fingers in a lot of pies out there.  It was a DARPA project that created and or funded the precursors that led to todays Internet (Bitnet, ARPANet and others).

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by nocl

[nocl]

2 hours ago, markeb said:

 

I haven't watched the segment yet, but yes, my understanding is that much of the early research and technology here was in fact funded by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency). It's what they do, for the most part. DARPA dates back to the US response to Sputnik in the late 50's, and its niche is funding cutting edge applied research outside of traditional defense acquisition. Generally high risk/high probability of failure that has no real home in the traditional systems, where your budget gets slashed if you take too many risks and fail. They've done some crazy things that just seemed to have no pathway forward, which would have included a lot of DNA and RNA vaccines until very recently (absence of good alternatives arguably cut the developmental risk a lot...). 

 

For instance, in 2017 they funded a project called Pandemic Prevention Platform (P3) aimed at developing a suite of capabilities to an emerging pandemic based on rapid nucleic acid analysis and largely centered around antibodies in 60 days or less. No one in their right mind would fund that in traditional government R&D and acquisition. You couldn't even get the contract let without significant relief from contract regulations in 60 days!

Some pretty out there projects at the National Labs such as Argonne via DOE.  The National labs are kind of DOE equivalent to DARPA.

[markeb]

25 minutes ago, nocl said:

Some pretty out there projects at the National Labs such as Argonne via DOE.  The National labs are kind of DOE equivalent to DARPA.

Agree. High risk high potential payoff work. With a willingness to fail. It makes them pretty unique in government. 

[TeeRick]

13 hours ago, JRG said:

 

Can I ask your opinion about the episode of 60 minutes  "The Last Pandemic" which aired yesterday.

 

Share your thoughts if you've seen this because it seems too good to be true.

I will try to watch the episode and comment back. 

 

By the way, an overlooked and less known fact.   The mRNA vaccine technology was initially developed by two professors at the University Of Pennsylvania with discoveries dating back to 2005. In fact both Moderna and Pfizer/BioNTech have licensed the mRNA technology from this university.  These two professors deserved to be mentioned here.   Drew Weissman, MD, PhD, and Katalin Karikó, PhD  and Dr. Kariko is now at BioNTech.  It is believed that both are in the running for a Nobel Prize in medicine or related scientific field.

 

See this short article for more information on these heroes.

 

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2020/december/penn-mrna-biology-pioneers-receive-covid19-vaccine-enabled-by-their-foundational-research

 

[mayleeman]

9 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

All I know is, since I got vaccinated, my cellphone is getting great reception now!  Just a coincidence I'm sure.

 

You will know when the vaccine has reached its full effect when you get the reception without the cell phone.  Watch out for the data plans, though, because Big Pharma is known to overcharge.

[TeeRick]

12 hours ago, HS2BS said:

Considering that the the Director of China Center for Disease Control, GAO Fu said, “Chinese vaccines don’t have very high protection rates”. These vaccines were sent/used by countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Philippines, Mexico and Brazil, some of the same countries that a vast number of the cruise ship crews come from. 
Given the admission from China that there vaccine may only be 25% effective, should Celebrity and the cruising community be concerned when Celebrity is touting 100% vaccinated crew?

 

Hal

Yes Hal I agree.  That is exactly what I was pointing out in my previous post here (#4521) when I brought it up.  And in the other thread that I started on crew vaccinations a few weeks ago.  RCG cruise lines are relying on their crew members to provide their own vaccine documentation if they have been vaccinated in their own countries.  I think the N.America and Europe approved vaccines are obviously fine.  And countries accessing the Russian Sputnik V vaccine too.  But the China sphere of influence countries send a lot of crew members to the ships we sail as you point out. 

[TeeRick]

2 minutes ago, mayleeman said:

 

You will know when the vaccine has reached its full effect when you get the reception without the cell phone.  Watch out for the data plans, though, because Big Pharma is known to overcharge.

Do you have ringing in your ears?😀

[K.T.B.]

US is pausing the use of the J&J vaccine because of a potential blood clotting issue:  LINK

[TeeRick]

4 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

US is pausing the use of the J&J vaccine because of a potential blood clotting issue:  LINK

Crap that is bad news.