Are vaccines the light at the end of the tunnel?

[TeeRick]

30 minutes ago, cangelmd said:

In big general terms that’s what I expected - just makes sense. There are several hundred thousand healthcare workers, wide range of ages, but no children and few frail elderly. Wide ranges of health status and socioeconomic conditions - the people in environmental services and the kitchen servers and the runners are all healthcare workers too. Many people who understand and will be willing to fill out follow up surveys. Risk-benefit ratio of the vaccine is tilted much more toward vaccination than the average person. Even though a lot of us have concerns about the novel vaccines, there will be plenty of people to expand the safety data.

 

There will be informed consent, I got my flu shot yesterday, and it included an informed consent, although they don’t exactly call it that.

I am getting my second dose of Shingrix today.  It is purified glycoprotein E in adjuvant.  Very simple and highly effective vaccine made by GSK.  GSK/Sanofi are using the same approach for their COVID vaccine with the Sars-CoV-2 purified Spike protein plus the same adjuvant.  If that works then it will be a very safe vaccine for most people.  Tried and true approach.  But they won't start phase 3 until December with possible approval mid 2021.  I might wait for this one.

[Jazzbo]

Hmmm..... The information about MMR is interesting.  My husband (70+) and I (60+) both got all three as children.  When I was 18, I had another mild case of measles that caused viral arthritis  (it took days after the arthritis hit for me to get the tell-tale rash).  Maybe we should both get the MMR vaccine.

[Spif Barwunkel]

On 9/22/2020 at 9:18 PM, Ken the cruiser said:

With all the positives we have recently read about the MMR vaccine and really no downside we could see, we figured what the heck. Of course, we'll really never know for sure if it helps, but to not take it given our age and all that's going on right now, it just seemed to us like the right thing to do.

MMR booster sounds interesting. However, having had both the measles and mumps at a very young age we do not feel the need to receive this vaccine. Also, our immune systems are sturdy, we get our annual flu shots and will get the C19 vaccine when available. I am sure that the MMR booster will be beneficial to those folks who desire it, but for us it would be getting something just because it's there. We will be comfortable without this additional precaution. 

[wrk2cruise]

Just checked with my primary care physician who said he's not recommending it at this time.  People should check with their Dr

[markeb]

Interesting release today from NIAID...

 

Some genetic factors, and some autoantibodies showing up in severe cases. Mostly in men. Not really vaccine related, but more information on pathogenesis. 

 

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/news-events/scientists-discover-genetic-and-immunologic-underpinnings-some-cases-severe-covid-19

 

Haven't looked at the two articles in the release yet. The science is circling around the virus and its effects. 

[TeeRick]

18 hours ago, wrk2cruise said:

Just checked with my primary care physician who said he's not recommending it at this time.  People should check with their Dr

YES absolutely agree - check with your physician.  I had both measles and mumps as a child.  So I obviously never got the MMR vaccine.  It will be interesting to see if anybody studies COVID-19 cases and previous measles, mumps and rubella childhood disease.  You might think that having these diseases as a child would be just as good (or better) to protect against COVID if the MMR vaccine story holds true.  All very interesting!

[mimbecky]

On 9/23/2020 at 7:45 AM, cangelmd said:

There are similar studies with the BCG vaccine and protection against COVID in those countries (not US) that use it.

 

My tennis partner was stuck in South Africa from March-July and this vaccine was being given there. She received it and said it was for the above reason but I don't know how SA would have known and acted on this information that far back.

I told my doctor that I had gotten a MMR booster and why.  She said "humm. good idea".  Of course if I had asked her recommendation in advance, she may have thought differently LOL.

I also saw this attachment on the news the other day.  I guess with this plan, it doesn't matter if you are a senior unless you are in a "dense settings" which I take to mean retirement facility etc.  Does that mean an older person who isn't working in these positions or isn't living in a facility would be in the very last phase? 😳

 

 

 

M

 

[TeeRick]

The Novavax COVID vaccine has initiated Phase 3 trials.  It is a traditional purified protein (SPIKE) in adjuvant.  This combination (protein subunit + adjuvant) is used in many successful vaccines.  I am hoping this one works too!

 

https://www.fiercebiotech.com/biotech/novavax-kickstarts-u-k-phase-3-covid-vaccine-u-k-as-cases-surge-across-country

[mimbecky]

So sorry, computer issues....aka user error

[cangelmd]

3 hours ago, mimbecky said:

 

My tennis partner was stuck in South Africa from March-July and this vaccine was being given there. She received it and said it was for the above reason but I don't know how SA would have known and acted on this information that far back.

I told my doctor that I had gotten a MMR booster and why.  She said "humm. good idea".  Of course if I had asked her recommendation in advance, she may have thought differently LOL.

I also saw this attachment on the news the other day.  I guess with this plan, it doesn't matter if you are a senior unless you are in a "dense settings" which I take to mean retirement facility etc.  Does that mean an older person who isn't working in these positions or isn't living in a facility would be in the very last phase? 😳

 

 

 

M

 

I have not seen this graphic, but a couple of thoughts:

Many people over age 65 will have "medical conditions" - it won't cover everyone, but it will cover the people most at risk. AND, I think there will be a lot of overlap in timing phases 4 and 5 especially, and possibly in 3, 4 and 5.

There will be enough people who refuse the vaccine in the first 4 phases that I think there will be vaccine available for most people who want a shot after Phase 3.

However, I think it quite possible that there will be a delay in a given country between phases 1 and 2 and phase 3. This is a worldwide problem, and I would like to think that healthy people in the US are willing to wait at least long enough for  the health care workers and frail elderly people in other countries to have a chance of vaccination. It is more complicated than that, because some of these fancy new vaccines have such stringent storage requirements that it isn't feasible to ship them out to some areas of the world either.

 

I also think,  there may be a delay after phase 1, just to collect more safety data. Number of people vaccinated won't completely substitute for monitoring for side effects over time, but it will help in the detection of very rare side effects - which we hope don't exist!

 

Oh and I think they were considering BCG as far back as July, Markeb or Teerick or NPCL probably know more about this than I do, but I think people have speculated that BCG may offer some general boost to cellular immunity in connection with other infections before. BCG is used as a sort of chemotherapy for bladder cancer in the US, where it kills the tumor as a side effect of the body's reaction to the vaccine. The vaccine isn't given as a shot, it is given as a solution applied directly on the tumor.

Edited September 25, 2020 by cangelmd

[Laurab23]

I just got the rabies vaccine last month. I wonder if that helps protect against Ovid. 

 

Laura

[markeb]

7 hours ago, cangelmd said:

Oh and I think they were considering BCG as far back as July, Markeb or Teerick or NPCL probably know more about this than I do, but I think people have speculated that BCG may offer some general boost to cellular immunity in connection with other infections before. BCG is used as a sort of chemotherapy for bladder cancer in the US, where it kills the tumor as a side effect of the body's reaction to the vaccine. The vaccine isn't given as a shot, it is given as a solution applied directly on the tumor.

 

Don't think it was me on BCG. Kind of still a little concerned about the idea of using what's viewed as a general CMI stimulant (along with the Mycobacterium activity) in the face of pathology that seems to at least partially be the result of inappropriate CMI...

[cangelmd]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

 

Don't think it was me on BCG. Kind of still a little concerned about the idea of using what's viewed as a general CMI stimulant (along with the Mycobacterium activity) in the face of pathology that seems to at least partially be the result of inappropriate CMI...

LOL, and it only works on bladder cancer when you pour on directly. Always seemed a bit like alchemy or voodoo to me!

yes, I would think that the timing would be important- don’t wait until you actually get Covid.

All these studies and observations circle back around to why do some people get so very sick and some never know they have it until the test is positive.

[markeb]

33 minutes ago, cangelmd said:

LOL, and it only works on bladder cancer when you pour on directly. Always seemed a bit like alchemy or voodoo to me!

yes, I would think that the timing would be important- don’t wait until you actually get Covid.

All these studies and observations circle back around to why do some people get so very sick and some never know they have it until the test is positive.

 

Yep. You're seeing more and more studies trying to get at that. The NIAID studies I posted earlier had some interesting findings, but mostly from a pure science standpoint. I don't know how you adapt that information to clinical management at this point, but that could happen down the road. It's a messy little virus, and our response to it doesn't always help. Surprise...

[K.T.B.]

5 hours ago, Laurab23 said:

I just got the rabies vaccine last month. I wonder if that helps protect against Ovid. 

 

Laura

 

No, but it will help if you bite someone during a political argument.

 

[markeb]

1 minute ago, K.T.B. said:

 

No, but it will help if you bite someone during a political argument.

 

 

Or against rabid sheep...

 

(Sorry, but ovid versus covid is just too funny of a typo to pass up!)

[phoenix_dream]

23 hours ago, mimbecky said:

 

My tennis partner was stuck in South Africa from March-July and this vaccine was being given there. She received it and said it was for the above reason but I don't know how SA would have known and acted on this information that far back.

I told my doctor that I had gotten a MMR booster and why.  She said "humm. good idea".  Of course if I had asked her recommendation in advance, she may have thought differently LOL.

I also saw this attachment on the news the other day.  I guess with this plan, it doesn't matter if you are a senior unless you are in a "dense settings" which I take to mean retirement facility etc.  Does that mean an older person who isn't working in these positions or isn't living in a facility would be in the very last phase? 😳

 

 

 

M

 

As a senior (69) without any underlying medical conditions I find this distribution disturbing.  If I do catch the virus, I am much more susceptible to dying or serious complications simply due to my age.  I would hate to have to wait until Phase 5!

[Laurab23]

10 hours ago, markeb said:

 

Or against rabid sheep...

 

(Sorry, but ovid versus covid is just too funny of a typo to pass up!)

Sorry about the typo. I didn't catch that one. Glad you knew what I meant.

[phoenix_dream]

On 9/25/2020 at 8:58 AM, mimbecky said:

 

My tennis partner was stuck in South Africa from March-July and this vaccine was being given there. She received it and said it was for the above reason but I don't know how SA would have known and acted on this information that far back.

I told my doctor that I had gotten a MMR booster and why.  She said "humm. good idea".  Of course if I had asked her recommendation in advance, she may have thought differently LOL.

I also saw this attachment on the news the other day.  I guess with this plan, it doesn't matter if you are a senior unless you are in a "dense settings" which I take to mean retirement facility etc.  Does that mean an older person who isn't working in these positions or isn't living in a facility would be in the very last phase? 😳

 

 

 

M

 

Should have asked in my previous post - in what context was this schedule given?  Is it a suggestion for your state?  For the country?  What power does the organization who posted it have?   Curious how close this will be to the actual schedule.

 

The more I look at this the more frustrated I get.  Nice to know if I killed someone and was in prison (and yes, I know, everyone there is not a killer), I would get priority over someone like me - a 69 year old with no underlying conditions.  And all the young adults who have been rapidly spreading the virus at the various universities (and yes, I also know this does not apply to ALL young adults), get priority over those of us healthy seniors who have been following all the rules and trying to stay safe (which by and large does describe all the seniors I know).  Maybe that is the logical approach, but it sure seems unfair and frustrating!

[Homosassa]

14 hours ago, markeb said:

 

Or against rabid sheep...

 

(Sorry, but ovid versus covid is just too funny of a typo to pass up!)

LOL - I was thinking poetry written in Latin.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Homosassa

[d9704011]

1 hour ago, phoenix_dream said:

Should have asked in my previous post - in what context was this schedule given?  Is it a suggestion for your state?  For the country?  What power does the organization who posted it have?   Curious how close this will be to the actual schedule.

 

The more I look at this the more frustrated I get.  Nice to know if I killed someone and was in prison (and yes, I know, everyone there is not a killer), I would get priority over someone like me - a 69 year old with no underlying conditions.  And all the young adults who have been rapidly spreading the virus at the various universities (and yes, I also know this does not apply to ALL young adults), get priority over those of us healthy seniors who have been following all the rules and trying to stay safe (which by and large does describe all the seniors I know).  Maybe that is the logical approach, but it sure seems unfair and frustrating!

See this if you want further info....

https://www.nationalacademies.org/our-work/a-framework-for-equitable-allocation-of-vaccine-for-the-novel-coronavirus

[Fouremco]

2 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

Should have asked in my previous post - in what context was this schedule given?  Is it a suggestion for your state?  For the country?  What power does the organization who posted it have?   Curious how close this will be to the actual schedule.

 

I wouldn't get too upset by this graphic. It's based on information from a discussion draft prepared by a committee formed by the National Academies at the request of the National Institutes of Health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, to help in the development of federal guidance.

 

The final report will be considered along with other advice as the federal government determines how a vaccine will be allocated in the United States.

 

The report will also immediately be made available to the public free of charge. The report will contain information that may also be useful to state and local policy makers and health officials.

 

As the final report may well correct this apparent oversight with respect to seniors, and as the report will be but one of many sources contributing to the development of the final allocation plan, I wouldn't conclude that healthy seniors will be at the back of the line for the vaccine. 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Fouremco

[Arizona Wildcat]

21 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

I wouldn't get too upset by this graphic. It's based on information from a discussion draft prepared by a committee formed by the National Academies at the request of the National Institutes of Health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, to help in the development of federal guidance.

 

The final report will be considered along with other advice as the federal government determines how a vaccine will be allocated in the United States.

 

The report will also immediately be made available to the public free of charge. The report will contain information that may also be useful to state and local policy makers and health officials.

 

As the final report may well correct this apparent oversight with respect to seniors, and as the report will be but one of many sources contributing to the development of the final allocation plan, I wouldn't conclude that healthy seniors will be at the back of the line for the vaccine. 

 

 

Correct. Not sure it is an oversight as much as people speculating about the meaning a preliminary document.  I did not interpret the document as putting older people last.  Older people do ALL have one underlying condition - age.

Much the same with the RCL/NCL return to cruising document.  Will the final report by the CDC be similar?  Probably.  Exactly the same - very doubtful.  What was missing to me was some sort of procedure/conditions to decide when cruises move from private islands to short single port cruises to longer cruises etc.

Until the CDC puts out its policy all we can do is guess.  Similar as to when Canada US border will open.

 

[markeb]

5 hours ago, Laurab23 said:

Sorry about the typo. I didn't catch that one. Glad you knew what I meant.

Serious answer to your question: Rabies is so unique. I can’t imagine any cross immunity, and the actual virus causes almost no inflammation until it gets to the brain, which can take months. So I’d be really amazed if the rabies vaccine had any impact on COVID. 

[Fouremco]

52 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

Correct. Not sure it is an oversight as much as people speculating about the meaning a preliminary document.  I did not interpret the document as putting older people last.  Older people do ALL have one underlying condition - age.

Much the same with the RCL/NCL return to cruising document.  Will the final report by the CDC be similar?  Probably.  Exactly the same - very doubtful.  What was missing to me was some sort of procedure/conditions to decide when cruises move from private islands to short single port cruises to longer cruises etc.

Until the CDC puts out its policy all we can do is guess.  Similar as to when Canada US border will open.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. When I said oversight, I meant that the authors weren't sufficiently explicit which, as you say, gives rise to speculation.

 

As the CDC has long pointed out the high level of vulnerability of seniors with respect to COVID-19, with or without underlying conditions, I doubt that you will see the final allocation plan drop seniors from the first tier or two.

 

The CDC updated its webpage on older adults on September 11: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/older-adults.html. It contains the following graphic: