CDC’s perspective is not encouraging for HAL

[KirkNC]

Or any cruise line.  I have echoed some of their comments about selling cruises they know will not sail.  I believe it’s fraud.

 

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/cruise-lines-booking-practices-pandemic-140001906.html

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by KirkNC

[DeeDee Groff]

It certainly is fraud in my book, Kirk!

[TiogaCruiser]

Wow.

[Mandalay1903]

This quote in the article surprised me: "But even Arnold Donald, CEO of Carnival, acknowledged in an earnings call earlier this month that its dealings with the CDC thus far have only centered on managing the operations pause and crew safety: “We have not actually gotten to the point of serious resumption of cruise discussions with the CDC,” he said. “But of course, that’s coming,”"

 

If it's taken three months or so to work out managing the operations pause and crew safety (not easy matters and probably still incomplete), I can't imagine how much additional time it will take to work out handling paying passengers and "normal" operations.  I think cruise lines touching US shores will be down for a long time--well beyond 9/30/2020--even if there is a vaccine.

[DFD1]

8 hours ago, DeeDee Groff said:

It certainly is fraud in my book, Kirk!

 

Some of us on this blog have been saying for quite some time that we should stop sending money to the cruise lines. Trying to use your "non-cashable" cruise credits is one thing, but sending new cash to these companies is quite another.

 

It just does not make sense considering the over all situation. I expect it will be well into 2021, if not later before cruising, especially longer cruising, begins.

Edited July 24, 2020 by DFD1

[Doubt It]

Agree with the above comments.

 

Since no one knows what the cruise product will be in the future - why are people putting cash down to purchase an unknown product?

 

It is illogical as Spock would say from the flight deck of the USS Enterprise. Spock would be crooking a brow and shaking his head as these individuals.

 

 

 

 

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, KirkNC said:

Or any cruise line.  I have echoed some of their comments about selling cruises they know will not sail.  I believe it’s fraud.

 

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/cruise-lines-booking-practices-pandemic-140001906.html

 

Yes, not just HAL. "Astonishing and Hearbreaking", that pretty much sums it up.

[wesport]

At this stage of the game, I think I would feel safer on a cruise ship than living in Florida. 

[DFD1]

23 minutes ago, wesport said:

At this stage of the game, I think I would feel safer on a cruise ship than living in Florida. 

 

Especially down in your corner the the state although it is pretty bad here as well.

 

We have not gone out to dinner since March 15. Since then its been the grocery store once in a while and very early in the morning, fill the car up every month or so and one volunteer job which is solitary.....Not a good situation. This in a small city of only about 35,000.

 

 

[cruisemom42]

This follows in line with what CDC expressed (less directly) in their explanation for extending the "No Sail" order. Basically, one gets the feeling that the cruise industry is behaving like a million-ton toddler, whining about CDC's requirements and making no real efforts (until perhaps very recently) to work on actual plans for compliance.

 

You have to admit, cruisers seem to be some of the most loyal customers out there, but even still you reach a point where you start to think you're being taken advantage of....

 

I also found it very revealing that one of the cruise industry's previous critics,  former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb, has now been place on the newly formed  RCL + NCL "Healthy Sail" panel, where he is no doubt paid handsomely, and has now changed his tune. Hmmm....  

 

 

[cscurlock]

5 minutes ago, DFD1 said:

 

Especially down in your corner the the state although it is pretty bad here as well.

 

We have not gone out to dinner since March 15. Since then its been the grocery store once in a while and very early in the morning, fill the car up every month or so and one volunteer job which is solitary.....Not a good situation. This in a small city of only about 35,000.

 

 

Well its easy to understand once you look at certain people that declared victory on this virus when we had it down on one knee and turned their back and now its up with 2 more buddies who are all now wailing on you.  

As far as the cruise lines they are just going to keep taking peoples money so they can stay afloat.  They really need that money since they are starting to get rid of their ships to stop the bleeding.  Paying for a cruise right now without being close to an agreement with the CDC is just plain crazy.   Once they are close to an agreement then yeah knock yourself out booking a cruise.

[Tampa Girl]

10 hours ago, KirkNC said:

Or any cruise line.  I have echoed some of their comments about selling cruises they know will not sail.  I believe it’s fraud.

 

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/cruise-lines-booking-practices-pandemic-140001906.html

 

 

It was not clear that the cruise lines are selling cruises that they "know" won't sail.  That could be fraud if the lines didn't return the deposits.  However, "knowing" and "hoping" are not the same.  The article was not even clear as to when these cruises were either booked or their sail dates.  IMHO there is insufficient evidence in that article to allege fraud.  The cruiselines are booking, hoping, that they will be able to sail and collecting income which must be refunded if they cannot.

[cruisemom42]

Just now, Tampa Girl said:

 

It was not clear that the cruise lines are selling cruises that they "know" won't sail.  That could be fraud if the lines didn't return the deposits.  However, "knowing" and "hoping" are not the same.  The article was not even clear as to when these cruises were either booked or their sail dates.  IMHO there is insufficient evidence in that article to allege fraud.  The cruiselines are booking, hoping, that they will be able to sail and collecting income which must be refunded if they cannot.

 

I suppose the devil is in the details, and the cruise lines probably skirt the "gray area" where they could not be sued or fined for their actions.

 

However, I personally find it difficult to justify how Carnival, for example, was selling cruises out of at least two US ports that were set to begin in early August KNOWING that they had not yet even submitted any plan to the CDC for resumption of sailing under COVID-19....

 

 

[Tampa Girl]

5 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I suppose the devil is in the details, and the cruise lines probably skirt the "gray area" where they could not be sued or fined for their actions.

 

However, I personally find it difficult to justify how Carnival, for example, was selling cruises out of at least two US ports that were set to begin in early August KNOWING that they had not yet even submitted any plan to the CDC for resumption of sailing under COVID-19....

 

 

 

Agreed that this was overly optimistic, at best.  But many plans go forward, conditioned on final approval.  As time wore on this past spring, it became very apparent that Carnival's plan was doomed.

[DaveOKC]

I can understand HAL's approach to setting up sailings even before getting approval, as people want to make plans as far out as possible.  At this point, I would think most people know that all traveling options are at risk of not happening.

 

[KirkNC]

Well there is fraud that meets the legal definition and then fraud that doesn't yet is still misleads and is unethical.  I would agree this doesn't meet the legal definition principally because of language on HAL's site that says:

 

We are currently assessing enhanced health and safety protocols in light of COVID-19 and how they may impact our future offerings. Our actual offerings may vary from what is displayed or described here.

 

I believe this language was put there to mitigate claims of legal fraud but I still believe it meets the second definition above.

Edited July 24, 2020 by KirkNC

[KirkNC]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

This follows in line with what CDC expressed (less directly) in their explanation for extending the "No Sail" order. Basically, one gets the feeling that the cruise industry is behaving like a million-ton toddler, whining about CDC's requirements and making no real efforts (until perhaps very recently) to work on actual plans for compliance.

 

You have to admit, cruisers seem to be some of the most loyal customers out there, but even still you reach a point where you start to think you're being taken advantage of....

 

I also found it very revealing that one of the cruise industry's previous critics,  former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb, has now been place on the newly formed  RCL + NCL "Healthy Sail" panel, where he is no doubt paid handsomely, and has now changed his tune. Hmmm....  

 

 

I find it amazing that, at least according to the quotes, the industry and CDC have made virtually no progress on protocols necessary to resume cruising.  It's like the industry is playing some kind of waiting game hoping things will magically change in their favor.

Edited July 24, 2020 by KirkNC

[KirkNC]

Here is the Websters definition:

 

"wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."

 

By selling bookings that knowingly won't take place, the cruise lines enhance their cash position which makes it more likely they will ride out the storm.  I know they are libel for the deposits but thats why they keep offering a 25% bonus to roll them over.  It keeps the cash on their balance sheet.  Plus if they do go bankrupt, the deposits just become part of the creditor settlement.

[DFD1]

Seems to me the confusion about all this from top to bottom, both medical and political, leads to the situation that the cruise lines are making no progress because they simply don't know what to do.

 

The result, I expect is a lot more  time will pass before there is any significant cruising out of United States ports.

Edited July 24, 2020 by DFD1

[chipmaster]

White collar crime is very hard to prove without reasonable doubt.  

 

 

[iancal]

Not to mention 100 plus days for refunds on some cruise lines.  Credit card dispute is the way to go.  

 

Scott Gotlieb may be suggesting to folks that taking a cruise is safer than going to London right now.  We would not do either.  We would not go to the UK, we would not go to the US, we would not cruise.  Why on earth take the unnecessary risk.  But then again, there are covid deniers out there and people who refuse to wear masks.

Edited July 24, 2020 by iancal

[Sir PMP]

3 hours ago, wesport said:

At this stage of the game, I think I would feel safer on a cruise ship than living in Florida. 

Sure about that?

[Sir PMP]

13 hours ago, KirkNC said:

Or any cruise line.  I have echoed some of their comments about selling cruises they know will not sail.  I believe it’s fraud.

 

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/cruise-lines-booking-practices-pandemic-140001906.html

 

They need the cash and when the cruise is cancelled, you can wait 6 months for a credit, nice way of doing business.

[SilvertoGold]

11 hours ago, Mandalay1903 said:

 

 

If it's taken three months or so to work out managing the operations pause and crew safety (not easy matters and probably still incomplete)

 

 

HAL Seattle has been working on getting crew home 7 days a week, no time off, since March and they are still working on it. That is a combination of departments with a Senior VP running the show.  I expect all issues are being worked on, one day at a time.

[npcl]

4 hours ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

It was not clear that the cruise lines are selling cruises that they "know" won't sail.  That could be fraud if the lines didn't return the deposits.  However, "knowing" and "hoping" are not the same.  The article was not even clear as to when these cruises were either booked or their sail dates.  IMHO there is insufficient evidence in that article to allege fraud.  The cruiselines are booking, hoping, that they will be able to sail and collecting income which must be refunded if they cannot.

Would be interesting to see their internal e-mail during discovery if they are ever sued or investigated by one of the state AG's.

Might be one of the reason you are starting to see cruise lines canceling further out because they can no longer effectively say that they thought they could cruise during that time frame.