Carnival update

[Selbourne]

8 hours ago, wowzz said:

Selbourne - I agree with much of what you say, but deaths directly due to CV19 are now in single figures. 

However, deaths from heart attacks, cancer,  reduced organ transplants etc have increased dramatically over the last 6 months.

It's not an easy judgement to make, but society has to start to prioritise.  The economy needs to recover, sick people need to get treatment and be seen by doctors and admitted to hospital. Those with underlying symptoms that may be at risk due to CV19  will obviously still need to take precautionary measures. 

I think we may need to have a new reality whereby the vast majority of the population carry  on as before, with certain restrictions,  and the susceptible live a more restricted lifestyle, based on their own personal risk assessment.

 

Wowzz I completely agree. I am OK with the relaxations so far and some of the restrictions that are still in place seem illogical to me and don’t follow the science. If I was under 50 I would be frustrated with pretty much any restrictions, as the chances of COVID-19 being a show stopper for the under 50’s remains remote. I also said at the outset that I didn’t agree with the near complete shut down of the NHS to focus on the virus and that the ramifications of that would be extremely serious on issues such as cancer. That is now starting to be realised, but the damage will be done over the next few years, with all the early diagnoses and critical first stage treatments being missed or delayed. Also, the economy is on its knees and we need to recover it before it damages a generation. 
 

The specific concern that I have is cruising. Some seem to think that being on a cruise ship is no more dangerous for the over 50’s than going to work in a Covid secure environment, or going to a land based restaurant with control measures etc. The facts simply don’t support that argument. Cruise ships are renowned for the spread of viruses due to their design and the nature of passenger and crew behaviours. That was known before COVID-19 but thankfully was mostly restricted to Norovirus and coughs and colds.

 

I would love cruising to return but cannot see an easy solution. Social distancing is impractical. Pre boarding screening is futile. The 90 min test could help, but how do thousands of people awaiting the result before boarding wait in a socially distanced manner? Chaos. Some suggest cruises to nowhere or round U.K. cruises. Neither of those reduce the risk factors one iota. All the known risk factors remain and people seem to be overlooking the fact that the U.K. has one of the highest infection rates, so ex U.K. cruises (even if to nowhere or just around the U.K.) are more likely to have an outbreak than a conventional cruise!

[wowzz]

8 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

I would love cruising to return but cannot see an easy solution

Fully agree with you. As you say, the 45 minute test would cause considerable chaos, and even then, you couldn't have subsequent visits ashore, in case of picking up the infection.

Everyone here seems to understand the issues involved - however on other SM sites there seems to be a completely different attitude, with people happily talking about looking forward to their November cruise ! Totally out of touch with reality. 

[davecttr]

With age differences being the most important determinant in COVID mortality I fear a distopian future where the elderly are banished to 'COVID colonies'. On your 50's birthday you get a knock on the door and you are carted off to a 'facility' for your protection. Make a run for it and the contact tracers track you down.

 

You could make a film about it 😟

 

Meanwhile a few billion more people get COVID and it mutates into a more deadly form which back infects the clear areas. Result 😱

[davecttr]

14 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Fully agree with you. As you say, the 45 minute test would cause considerable chaos, and even then, you couldn't have subsequent visits ashore, in case of picking up the infection.

Everyone here seems to understand the issues involved - however on other SM sites there seems to be a completely different attitude, with people happily talking about looking forward to their November cruise ! Totally out of touch with reality. 

The 90 minute test if accurate would not give a positive for people with a low viral load so you have to test daily. Even then some may not have a detectable viral load for several weeks. You also need an accurate antibody test to run concurrently Sticking a swab up your nose does not sound attractive, especially if you have to suffer it daily.

[Chrisdriving]

Yes i think under that regime you would need to be desperate to want to consider boarding a cruise ship.

[Oulton Jim]

Lots of questions being posed - no answers, yet. One begins to 'feel' for all those directly involved with the cruise industry. A relatively new avenue being explored is plasma to build up antibody to this disease. Just thinking - we are in the 8th month of this pandemic-there are still the best part of 5 months to the end of the year-and remember our viral specialists have had to work from a standing start. 

[Dermotsgirl]

1 minute ago, Oulton Jim said:

Lots of questions being posed - no answers, yet. One begins to 'feel' for all those directly involved with the cruise industry. A relatively new avenue being explored is plasma to build up antibody to this disease. Just thinking - we are in the 8th month of this pandemic-there are still the best part of 5 months to the end of the year-and remember our viral specialists have had to work from a standing start. 

The people working in the cruise industry and those who indirectly rely on it must be in complete turmoil. A nightmare situation for them, and I feel sorry for them.

 

i know someone who has donated plasma. He was was one of the people, back in March, who thought he might have had it, as he lost his sense of smell and taste. He didn’t have any other symptoms and his wife and children didn’t catch it.

 

He went for an antibody test, and apparently had ‘lots of antibodies’, so they are harvesting his plasma for this scheme. 

 

 

[grapau27]

9 hours ago, wowzz said:

Bought my first house in Harrogate around 1977 ( with some help  from my Dad) , having previously lived in Knaresborough opposite Mother Shipton's Cave. .£16,000 for a 3 bed semi!  Ah, nostalgia.  I'll be talking about my Capri with a vinyl roof next.

Can I suggest William & Victoria Bistro on Cold Bath Road  (great road name!) for a good meal.

Thanks.

We drive down Cold Bath Road to the White Hart Hotel where I park so I will look out for it.

I covered Knaresborough and Harrogate with 3 different sales companies in the late 70s through mid 90s it is a lovely area.

[wowzz]

1 minute ago, grapau27 said:

Thanks.

We drive down Cold Bath Road to the White Hart Hotel where I park so I will look out for it.

I covered Knaresborough and Harrogate with 3 different sales companies in the late 70s through mid 90s it is a lovely area.

My "patch" at the time was Northern England, Scotland and Ireland (all of it !) As you can imagine, I did a fair bit of travelling.

[grapau27]

1 hour ago, wowzz said:

Fully agree with you. As you say, the 45 minute test would cause considerable chaos, and even then, you couldn't have subsequent visits ashore, in case of picking up the infection.

Everyone here seems to understand the issues involved - however on other SM sites there seems to be a completely different attitude, with people happily talking about looking forward to their November cruise ! Totally out of touch with reality. 

I agree.

I don't see cruising safely happening until a vaccine is available.

Ships sailing at 50% capacity with balcony cabins only for passengers and other cabins for crew and quarantine possibly

Edited August 6, 2020 by grapau27

[grapau27]

2 minutes ago, wowzz said:

My "patch" at the time was Northern England, Scotland and Ireland (all of it !) As you can imagine, I did a fair bit of travelling.

Definitely.

Cumbria, Durham, Northumberland, Edinburgh and Yorkshire for me.

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, Selbourne said:

Wowzz I completely agree. I am OK with the relaxations so far and some of the restrictions that are still in place seem illogical to me and don’t follow the science. If I was under 50 I would be frustrated with pretty much any restrictions, as the chances of COVID-19 being a show stopper for the under 50’s remains remote. I also said at the outset that I didn’t agree with the near complete shut down of the NHS to focus on the virus and that the ramifications of that would be extremely serious on issues such as cancer. That is now starting to be realised, but the damage will be done over the next few years, with all the early diagnoses and critical first stage treatments being missed or delayed. Also, the economy is on its knees and we need to recover it before it damages a generation. 
 

The specific concern that I have is cruising. Some seem to think that being on a cruise ship is no more dangerous for the over 50’s than going to work in a Covid secure environment, or going to a land based restaurant with control measures etc. The facts simply don’t support that argument. Cruise ships are renowned for the spread of viruses due to their design and the nature of passenger and crew behaviours. That was known before COVID-19 but thankfully was mostly restricted to Norovirus and coughs and colds.

 

I would love cruising to return but cannot see an easy solution. Social distancing is impractical. Pre boarding screening is futile. The 90 min test could help, but how do thousands of people awaiting the result before boarding wait in a socially distanced manner? Chaos. Some suggest cruises to nowhere or round U.K. cruises. Neither of those reduce the risk factors one iota. All the known risk factors remain and people seem to be overlooking the fact that the U.K. has one of the highest infection rates, so ex U.K. cruises (even if to nowhere or just around the U.K.) are more likely to have an outbreak than a conventional cruise!

Selbourne, it seems to me that your personal fears are influencing your judgement as to when or if cruising should restart.  It is perfectly acceptable for you to decide not to cruise until there is a working vaccine, but there is no justification for that to mean there should be no cruising until then.  If the CLIA and govt bodies can agree a set of procedures that cover all possibilities, and that all countries and ports can agree upon, then surely it is more sensible to proceed and allow every passenger to decide for themselves whether they are prepared to accept the risk, and the possible inconvenience if things go wrong.

[mercury7289]

Just now, terrierjohn said:

Selbourne, it seems to me that your personal fears are influencing your judgement as to when or if cruising should restart.  It is perfectly acceptable for you to decide not to cruise until there is a working vaccine, but there is no justification for that to mean there should be no cruising until then.  If the CLIA and govt bodies can agree a set of procedures that cover all possibilities, and that all countries and ports can agree upon, then surely it is more sensible to proceed and allow every passenger to decide for themselves whether they are prepared to accept the risk, and the possible inconvenience if things go wrong.

Covid is not listening to governing bodies or the CLIA, its feral!

[wowzz]

4 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Selbourne, it seems to me that your personal fears are influencing your judgement as to when or if cruising should restart.  It is perfectly acceptable for you to decide not to cruise until there is a working vaccine, but there is no justification for that to mean there should be no cruising until then.  If the CLIA and govt bodies can agree a set of procedures that cover all possibilities, and that all countries and ports can agree upon, then surely it is more sensible to proceed and allow every passenger to decide for themselves whether they are prepared to accept the risk, and the possible inconvenience if things go wrong.

As long as the risks are clearly spelt out, namely that the cruise schedule is subject to change,  that you may be forced to be quarantined in your cabin both during and after the cruise for 14 days, and you will  not be allowed to leave the ship at any port of call.

Can't see many people wanting to cruise with those sort of risks.

[terrierjohn]

4 minutes ago, mercury7289 said:

Covid is not listening to governing bodies or the CLIA, its feral!

That is a rather pointless and defeatist attitude to take mercury, you may wish to bury your head in the sand and await Armageddon, personally I would prefer to explore every possible solution until the problem is solved.

[Cathygh]

Not sure how we got on to Harrogate but it's one of my favourite places. DH was born there and we still visit family, usually combining it with the Home and Gift Show but sadly not this year. Betty's is over rated IMHO. We quite like a Turkish Restaurant, I think it's called Istanbul Grill. 

I can report 100% compliance with masks in my shop, including staff. We are in a little arcade and occasionally people forget to one on but quickly catch on.😷

And for those of you who are reps/ agents, I admire the driving you do, hundreds of miles for a minimum order, and never complaining

Cathy

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Cathygh
update

[Selbourne]

30 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Selbourne, it seems to me that your personal fears are influencing your judgement as to when or if cruising should restart.  It is perfectly acceptable for you to decide not to cruise until there is a working vaccine, but there is no justification for that to mean there should be no cruising until then.  If the CLIA and govt bodies can agree a set of procedures that cover all possibilities, and that all countries and ports can agree upon, then surely it is more sensible to proceed and allow every passenger to decide for themselves whether they are prepared to accept the risk, and the possible inconvenience if things go wrong.

In the main, I agree with you John. I’m not saying that there should be no cruises, just that the resumption of them at present (and probably for some time) seems impractical to me for multiple reasons. I do feel, however, that anyone over 50 who has not already had the virus (and therefore has antibodies) or been vaccinated (when available), yet is prepared to go on a cruise, is playing a game of Russian Roulette, which seems ludicrous to me but I accept that we all make our choices. As to whether cruise lines will allow passengers to take those risks remains to be seen, as I can’t help but feel that some of those who are quite blasé about it now may take a different view if they contract the virus on board or have their cruise significantly impacted by an outbreak. 

There are, of course, some measures that could lessen (but not eliminate) the risks, but those that have been suggested so far sound dreadful. There is no way that I would pay thousands of pounds to endure that sort of ‘holiday’ experience. If enough people are prepared to and the cruise lines are prepared to take the risk then I wish them well. 

[AndyMichelle]

22 minutes ago, Cathygh said:

 

I can report 100% compliance with masks in my shop, including staff. We are in a little arcade and occasionally people forget to one on but quickly catch on.😷

And for those of you who are reps/ agents, I admire the driving you do, hundreds of miles for a minimum order, and never complaining

Cathy

 

That's the key Cathy, if the staff wear masks or shields, it makes the customer not wanting to be the odd one out. 

I hope business is going well and continues to do so. 

Andy 

[Adawn47]

11 hours ago, grapau27 said:

Independent shops need the business plus none of the owners were wearing masks either.

That's how it is here Graham. It began with the staff refusing to allow non-maskwearing customers in. It lasted all of 3 days. 

Avril 

[mercury7289]

31 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

That is a rather pointless and defeatist attitude to take mercury, you may wish to bury your head in the sand and await Armageddon, personally I would prefer to explore every possible solution until the problem is solved.

Disagree with your assumptions entirely, however maybe it would be better for me, to bury my head in the sand, could be a Covid free zone!

I am not sailing on the Armageddon, well not any time soon!

You are behind the 8 ball in terms of solutions, the answer is---WAIT!

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by mercury7289

[Adawn47]

11 hours ago, wowzz said:

100% usage of masks here in rural Lincs, and we don't even have any cases!

I sincerely hope it stays that way for you wowzz, and if the mask wearing continues, it will. The fact that you live in a rural area though is the key me thinks 😉

Avril 

[Cathygh]

6 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said:

That's the key Cathy, if the staff wear masks or shields, it makes the customer not wanting to be the odd one out. 

I hope business is going well and continues to do so. 

Andy 

Hi Ady

You are right. How can ask customers to wear a mask if I don't? Although I do take it off when behind the screen. We go to great lengths to make customers feel safe.

Business is better than expected, not as good as it used to be , but I'm happy if I can pay my over heads. And although it doesn't feel right to say, this we have been able to source face masks and they have really helped us. We opened for 5 days a week in June, increasing to Sundays this week and Mondays so full 7 days from mid September. Fingers crossed there won't be a lock down and we should make it through.

Hope all is well with you

Cathy

 

[AndyMichelle]

10 minutes ago, Adawn47 said:

That's how it is here Graham. It began with the staff refusing to allow non-maskwearing customers in. It lasted all of 3 days. 

Avril 

We are an independent business and everybody without exception has complied. Even card carriers are happy for the short period of time they are with us to not put us, other customers and themselves at risk. 

I think us wearing masks sets the precedent. 

Andy 

[Cathygh]

4 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said:

We are an independent business and everybody without exception has complied. Even card carriers are happy for the short period of time they are with us to not put us, other customers and themselves at risk. 

I think us wearing masks sets the precedent. 

Andy 

You are right. On occasion I've had to remind people in the arcade but everyone has been fine about it. Interestingly, customers complain about shops where it is not enforced

Cathy

[Son of Anarchy]

Was in the Tank Museum at Bovington yesterday.  The only visitors not wearing masks were small children, who are exempt anyway.

 

Even the mannequins had masks on, which I thought was a very good reminder.