Thoughts on Cuba cruises resuming

[broberts]

Once cruising resumes, (presuming sometime  in the next year),  are Cuba cruises likely to open up?

[jtwind]

We got to go to Cuba because the policy at the time allowed self guided travel as long as you tried to maximize use of individually owned restaurants, "hotels", and tour guides.  The idea of trying to get $ in the hands of the people while minimizing the amount of $ going to the government seemed like a decent plan.  But in the end, tourists from the US were frequently and openly breaking these rules, and this type of travel and cruises were done.  I know.  Folks are going to say that the president at the time had it on his agenda to stop it even if US travelers complied with the rules.  But I believe that if US travelers had behaved themselves, Cuba wouldn't have been closed off again, other than for the virus.

[SelectSys]

32 minutes ago, jtwind said:

But I believe that if US travelers had behaved themselves, Cuba wouldn't have been closed off again, other than for the virus.

Can you explain this a bit better?  I certainly support your idea of getting money into the hands of the people rather than a cruise company or all inclusive resort operator.

[donaldsc]

In the past and I assume that in the future once Covid is under control, you have always been able to go to Cuba.  You just have to be willing to do it independently and be willing to break the rules.  You just fly to either Canada or Mexico and then take one of the many regularly scheduled flights to Cuba.  No passports were stamped so unless the US government is tracking all flights from Canada or Mexico, nobody knows that you went there.  My brother has done it twice and his mother did it several times many years back when everyone was scared to death to go to Cuba.  We did a 3 week escorted "educational" land trip to Cuba several years back which was great and I look forward to doing a Canada to Cuba trip to Cuba once things are sorted out.

 

I have compared the cruise ship tours to Cuba with any of the many available land trips and the land trips are much better.  You get to mingle w the Cuban people, eat in the same restaurants as they do many of which are now privately owned, stay in privately owned B&B which I do admit can be basic although always friendly and clean and generally experience the real Cuba.  Compare this with a cruise ship tour of Cuba where you only spend a few hours per day on a fully escorted tour and then are rushed back to the ship to be fed and to sleep.

 

I suspect and hope that a positive result of the Covid epidemic may be that people will discover that there are other ways of traveling than on a cruise ship.  I know that we will do less cruise ship traveling and more independent land trip traveling than we did in the past.  I am coming to the conclusion that the only cruise ship trips that we will take will be to places that are difficult to get to by land,  For example, we are now seriously looking at Hurtigrutin trips that go to some of the small isolated islands off England and Scotland.  These places would be very difficult to do on a DIY trip.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

DON

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, jtwind said:

But in the end, tourists from the US were frequently and openly breaking these rules, and this type of travel and cruises were done.  I know.  Folks are going to say that the president at the time had it on his agenda to stop it even if US travelers complied with the rules.  But I believe that if US travelers had behaved themselves, Cuba wouldn't have been closed off again, other than for the virus.

 

I think we have already had this discussion. The terms of the travel option to Cuba allowed folks on cruises to not take the ship tours as long as they undertook to book tours with Cuban operators who were compliant under the acceptable options. The cruise lines tried to corral everyone into only taking their tours but it was not a requirement. 

 

(Same way they try to pretend that when you go to Russia you won't be allowed off the ship unless you either take their tour or pay out for an expensive Russian visa. But there ARE other options...)

 

 

 

[mom says]

23 hours ago, broberts said:

Once cruising resumes, (presuming sometime  in the next year),  are Cuba cruises likely to open up?

I see all of the earlier posts were removed.  Unfortunately, the OPs question cannot properly or accurately be answered because it would require entering into the forbidden territory of politics.

[jtwind]

1 hour ago, SelectSys said:

Can you explain this a bit better?  I certainly support your idea of getting money into the hands of the people rather than a cruise company or all inclusive resort operator.

 

Yes.  So, for example. if you went on a cruise that stopped in Cuba, the rules in existence right before cruises were shut down said that you were to avoid spending $ in such a way that it ended up in the hands of the Cuban government.  The government owns big travel agencies, most restaurants, big hotels, cabs, etc.  But there are also privately owned versions of such establishments.

 

If you weren't taking a ship excursion, it was pretty tricky to figure out how to do your shore excursion in a compliant way.  (I believe that is why some cruise lines were trying to guarantee that their passengers were being compliant by requiring ship excursions.)  I tried to get information on how to do compliant travel by going to the Tripadvisor forum.  There, people literally made fun of anyone trying to be compliant.  The overwhelming majority of advice was to just do as you please, because they believed that either the rules were unjust or that you wouldn't get caught.

 

It pretty much became common knowledge for Cuba travelers, that US tourists and cruise passengers were doing their own thing, and not following the rules.  Cruises from the US stopped, as did the ability to do certain self-guided land based trips.  Would it have happened if people had been following the rules?  Who knows.  Opinions are all over the place. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by jtwind

[donaldsc]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I think we have already had this discussion. The terms of the travel option to Cuba allowed folks on cruises to not take the ship tours as long as they undertook to book tours with Cuban operators who were compliant under the acceptable options. The cruise lines tried to corral everyone into only taking their tours but it was not a requirement. 

 

(Same way they try to pretend that when you go to Russia you won't be allowed off the ship unless you either take their tour or pay out for an expensive Russian visa. But there ARE other options...)

 

 

 

 

Were these rules set by the US government or the Cuban government?

 

DON

[broberts]

2 hours ago, donaldsc said:

 

Were these rules set by the US government or the Cuban government?

 

DON

 

I believe the US government. If memory serves the rules were intended to provide a way around the embargo legislation.

[ontheweb]

7 hours ago, donaldsc said:

 

Were these rules set by the US government or the Cuban government?

 

DON

Obviously the US government. Why would the Cuban government set rules that said you cannot spend money that would go to the Cuban government?

[evandbob]

I would hope that when cruising resumes and tourist travel becomes "normalized" after reaching vaccination levels to support herd immunity, Cuban tourism will re-open for USA citizens.  Perhaps in mid 2022?

[Hlitner]

I think JTWind has it completely wrong.  So lets stay away from politics and talk policy.  The US has long had a regulation that prohibits US Citizens from spending US Dollars in Cuba.  When the US Government finally decided to allow cruise line passengers to visit Cuba a work around was developed that allowed cruise passengers to go ashore on excursions which, in theory, prevented the US Citizens from spending dollars ashore (they paid for the excursion through the cruise line).   During that same era there were quite a few Americans who went to Cuba as tourists by simply entering via Canada or Mexico.   Disagreements between Cuba and the Trump administration caused the cruise ship work around to be stopped (along with the cruises) but American tourists continued to visit Cuba via Canada and Mexico.  In fact we have some friends who (2 years ago) flew to Cuba via Mexico, rented a car, and spent 2 weeks exploring a lot of interesting places on the island.

 

But now there are several factors in play, the most important being COVID.  Cuba currently has testing COVID testing requirements in place that would not seem to work for cruises.  Whether they would amend those requirements to allow cruise ships is still a question.  If Cuba were to allow cruises then the question becomes "will the Biden administration allow American cruisers to return to Cuba?"  At this time nobody has the answer to that question, but it is moot since there are currently no cruises from US Ports.

 

I think where JTWind has it wrong is that the issue was never about "behavior" or Americans or anyone else.  It was simply about long-standing US Government regulations (regarding the spending of US Dollars in Cuba) and the willingness of the US Government to allow exceptions (you might call this a waiver) of regulations.     But when it comes to US folks visiting Cuba the issue is not about visiting Cuba but actually about the inability to spend money in Cuba.  This is covered in the US Code under Title 31 Chapter 5 Part 515 (Cuban Assets Control Regulations).   I will leave it to the lawyers but it has been argued that it is technically illegal for Americans to visit Cuba because of these US Treasury regulations.  Others have argued that technically it was never illegal as long as one did not spend US Dollars in Cuba.  

 

But the bottom line is that the Biden Administration could, again, open up the ability of Americans to visit Cuba which, of course, would be subject to the willingness of Cuba to accept the travelers.  I do believe that at one point Cuba, in a retaliatory policy, had made it illegal (under Cuban law) for anyone to spend US Dollars in Cuba.  I do not know the current status of that Cuban restriction but do know it was generally not enforced since our friends had no problem spending dollars when visiting Cuba.  They stayed in small B&Bs and ate at local restaurants where US Dollars were readily accepted.

 

Hank 

[jtwind]

On 3/2/2021 at 10:06 AM, Hlitner said:

I think JTWind has it completely wrong.  So lets stay away from politics and talk policy.  The US has long had a regulation that prohibits US Citizens from spending US Dollars in Cuba.  When the US Government finally decided to allow cruise line passengers to visit Cuba a work around was developed that allowed cruise passengers to go ashore on excursions which, in theory, prevented the US Citizens from spending dollars ashore (they paid for the excursion through the cruise line).   During that same era there were quite a few Americans who went to Cuba as tourists by simply entering via Canada or Mexico.   Disagreements between Cuba and the Trump administration caused the cruise ship work around to be stopped (along with the cruises) but American tourists continued to visit Cuba via Canada and Mexico.  In fact we have some friends who (2 years ago) flew to Cuba via Mexico, rented a car, and spent 2 weeks exploring a lot of interesting places on the island.

 

But now there are several factors in play, the most important being COVID.  Cuba currently has testing COVID testing requirements in place that would not seem to work for cruises.  Whether they would amend those requirements to allow cruise ships is still a question.  If Cuba were to allow cruises then the question becomes "will the Biden administration allow American cruisers to return to Cuba?"  At this time nobody has the answer to that question, but it is moot since there are currently no cruises from US Ports.

 

I think where JTWind has it wrong is that the issue was never about "behavior" or Americans or anyone else.  It was simply about long-standing US Government regulations (regarding the spending of US Dollars in Cuba) and the willingness of the US Government to allow exceptions (you might call this a waiver) of regulations.     But when it comes to US folks visiting Cuba the issue is not about visiting Cuba but actually about the inability to spend money in Cuba.  This is covered in the US Code under Title 31 Chapter 5 Part 515 (Cuban Assets Control Regulations).   I will leave it to the lawyers but it has been argued that it is technically illegal for Americans to visit Cuba because of these US Treasury regulations.  Others have argued that technically it was never illegal as long as one did not spend US Dollars in Cuba. 

 

Let's start with a timely, friendly reminder to avoid the "rules don't apply to me" attitude when traveling resumes.  YOU may be able to get away with doing something you're not supposed to do.  But in the end, you may ruin things for everyone else.

 

There is no denying that the rules in place for travel to Cuba were being blatantly broken in large numbers.  When you make conditional rules for travel, and those rules are repeatedly broken, guess what's going to happen.

 

We wanted to do a self-guided "support of the Cuban people" trip which, as mentioned previously, involved patronizing only privately owned business.  This became possible during the Trump administration.  (We know.  We lived it.)

 

The previous administration had such a big problem with cruises going to Cuba that they didn't use the sonic attack on the embassy to end them, nor did they even end cruising in the first 2 years.  Something moved US/Cuba relations from the back burner to a front burner, ahead of golfing and breaking up child molester rings.  

 

I'm pretty sure that the last administration really wanted folks to go to Cuba and stimulate private business.  That's why they changed the rule that allowed us to go self-guided.  But people broke the rules.  It became common knowledge.

[cruisemom42]

6 minutes ago, jtwind said:

But people broke the rules.  It became common knowledge.

 

You keep saying this. But can you link to anything more concrete than discussions on Cruise Critic and/or TripAdvisor which -- as I'm sure you know -- should always be taken with a grain of salt.

 

I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe that the fact that some people "didn't follow the rules" for cruises to Cuba were the reason for the stoppage. But I am willing to consider the evidence if you can present it.

 

Here's what I have found regarding the then Trump Administration's reasoning regarding the changes:

 

Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin said the measures are a response to what it calls Cuba’s “destabilizing role” in the Western Hemisphere, including support for the government of President Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela.

 

“This administration has made a strategic decision to reverse the loosening of sanctions and other restrictions on the Cuban regime,” Mnuchin said. “These actions will help to keep U.S. dollars out of the hands of Cuban military, intelligence, and security services.”

 

Along with the cruise ships, the U.S. will also now ban most private planes and boats from stopping in the island.

 

https://apnews.com/article/67c721daee8143d4a2e6ee8c401bf215

 

What I glean from the above is that the decision was strategic, i.e., based on their strategy -- not a response to any particular rule-breaking behavior. And it appears to have a basis in responding to Cuba's refusal to decrease/stop support for Maduro's government.

 

If it was targeted toward cruise ships, why did they also roll back other categories of travel as well?

 

 

[ldubs]

I have no desire to go to Cuba.  As to Cuba Cruises, I'm pretty OK either way.    I wondered if those growing up during the cold war might have a hard nosed view.   Reading here, that does not appear to be the case.     

[dolittle]

Whatever the policy of Cuba or U.S  I don't think the demand for Cuba cruises was all that strong .They were not selling well and they pulled one ship off that route . Cuba may work as a ''WOW I am in cuba'' thrill but that will not last last long. Are they ready for mass tourism I doubt they have the  systems or experience to handle what most people want.Do they have a port that can handle the big ships from Miami and F.L. I do not think so. When you see travel shows from Cuba what do they have some more 57 chevy's and poorly equiped  baseball teams. The truth is they are stuck in the early 60s this may attract some but not most.

[LHT28]

22 minutes ago, dolittle said:

When you see travel shows from Cuba what do they have some more 57 chevy's and poorly equiped  baseball teams. The truth is they are stuck in the early 60s this may attract some but not most.

There is  a reason for that 🙄

 

can you spell TRADE EMBARGO

[ldubs]

24 minutes ago, dolittle said:

Whatever the policy of Cuba or U.S  I don't think the demand for Cuba cruises was all that strong .They were not selling well and they pulled one ship off that route . Cuba may work as a ''WOW I am in cuba'' thrill but that will not last last long. Are they ready for mass tourism I doubt they have the  systems or experience to handle what most people want.Do they have a port that can handle the big ships from Miami and F.L. I do not think so. When you see travel shows from Cuba what do they have some more 57 chevy's and poorly equiped  baseball teams. The truth is they are stuck in the early 60s this may attract some but not most.

 

Folks say "oooh, now we can buy the cigars".  And they don't even smoke.   I don't get it.   🙂

[Hlitner]

I honestly have no reason to cruise to Cuba as we tend to do long cruises (heaven only knows when that will happen again) that generally are not in those waters.  But since DW and I have not visited Cuba we would more likely go on an extended DIY trip (like our friends) so we have a few weeks to really explore the island.   As to rules, I will leave that to the teachers in Grade School (not sure those children follow all the rules either).

 

When our friends spent two weeks driving around Cuba (it would be just about 2 years ago) they really had an interesting time with some ups and downs.  A few of their B&Bs had little or no hot water which I think was the biggest negative.  They found the Cubans to be quite friendly and also curious about the world outside of Cuba and they enjoyed the food, music, and of course adult beverages.  They also got a lot of pictures of the famous old cars (mostly US made) that are found all over Cuba.  If the economic embargo is ever lifted I suspect that car collectors will be rushing to Cuba to increase their collections.   What is interesting about our US policy is that we have visited Vietnam (three times) and enjoyed the experience (especially exploring Saigon on our own).  We were actually in Cuba the day after the US normalized diplomatic relations and learned of the pact while standing in front of the old US Embassy where an old lady came up to DW, pointed at the old Embassy building (it was then the Vietnam Petroleum company) and told her that the building again belonged to the USA (we quickly sold the property).   I only mention this since we are amazed that it has taken so long for things to normalize with Cuba.    

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

34 minutes ago, dolittle said:

Whatever the policy of Cuba or U.S  I don't think the demand for Cuba cruises was all that strong .They were not selling well and they pulled one ship off that route . Cuba may work as a ''WOW I am in cuba'' thrill but that will not last last long. Are they ready for mass tourism I doubt they have the  systems or experience to handle what most people want.Do they have a port that can handle the big ships from Miami and F.L. I do not think so. When you see travel shows from Cuba what do they have some more 57 chevy's and poorly equiped  baseball teams. The truth is they are stuck in the early 60s this may attract some but not most.

 

I'm curious, did you cruise to Cuba when it was an option?  Most who did enjoyed it.

 

People in the US somehow don't realize that Cuba has been a destination for tourists for decades -- just because the US doesn't allow citizens to go there doesn't mean that other nationalities don't flock there to stay in the resorts and AIs.  Very very popular among Canadians particularly.

 

Cruise travel from the U.S. to Cuba began in May 2016. It took the cruise lines a bit of time to really figure out how to make it work and get Cuba ports into their itineraries, but by the time the program was halted in 2019, it had become "the most popular form of U.S. leisure travel to the island, bringing 142,721 people in the first four months of the year, a more than 300% increase over the same period" in 2018.

 

Sounds to me like it was pretty popular. 

 

As to the big ships and where they can dock, there is starting to be more and more pushback on those, even in the Caribbean. First Key West voted against them, now authorities in Grand Cayman are facing opposition from locals regarding a planned larger docking facility that was to be built "in partnership with the cruise industry".

 

https://skift.com/2020/02/20/grass-roots-opposition-to-cruises-in-the-caymans-looms-as-larger-warning-for-industry/

Edited March 5, 2021 by cruisemom42

[iancal]

Cuba is a very popular winter destination for Canadian. I believe that we form their largest group.

 

We were there a number of years ago.   What surprised us?  So many Europeans.  We had one group at our AI from Belgium.  They were staying for two weeks. Same with some folks from France.

 

The other suprise....more Americans that we thought.  At that time we met a number who live close to the Canadian border. They routinely buy AI packages from a Canadian destination.  Their passports get stamped...but on a piece of paper. 

[donaldsc]

6 hours ago, iancal said:

Cuba is a very popular winter destination for Canadian. I believe that we form their largest group.

 

We were there a number of years ago.   What surprised us?  So many Europeans.  We had one group at our AI from Belgium.  They were staying for two weeks. Same with some folks from France.

 

The other suprise....more Americans that we thought.  At that time we met a number who live close to the Canadian border. They routinely buy AI packages from a Canadian destination.  Their passports get stamped...but on a piece of paper. 

 

People from every country in the world except for one can visit Cuba any time they want to.  That says something about the outlier.

 

DON

[sfaaa]

45 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

 

People from every country in the world except for one can visit Cuba any time they want to.  That says something about the outlier.

 

DON

Many non Americans can visit Cuba but choose not to go. I believe that also says something about the place.

[K32682]

15 hours ago, dolittle said:

Whatever the policy of Cuba or U.S  I don't think the demand for Cuba cruises was all that strong .They were not selling well and they pulled one ship off that route . Cuba may work as a ''WOW I am in cuba'' thrill but that will not last last long. Are they ready for mass tourism I doubt they have the  systems or experience to handle what most people want. Do they have a port that can handle the big ships from Miami and F.L. I do not think so. When you see travel shows from Cuba what do they have some more 57 chevy's and poorly equiped baseball teams. The truth is they are stuck in the early 60s this may attract some but not most.

 

Cuba can absolutely handle mass tourism because it is doing so now.  Many Europeans, Russians, Canadians, Brits et al vacation there. Having vacationed in mid-range AI resorts in both Cuba and the Dominican Republic there was little difference between them. The few amenity differences that did exist can attributed at least in part to America's pathological fixation on the tiny Caribbean island.

 

One major difference between Cuba and the DR was the lack of being harangued by vendors and touts on the beaches and a general sense of being safer in Cuba.  

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by K32682

[iancal]

Agree.  We have been to DR and to Cuba.  We felt safer in Cuba than we have in DR.  Far less vendors.

 

We left our AI one morning, took the local bus in to Havana.  Got met by a guide, arranged a B&B for the night.  We were by ourselves after 5PM and for the following day..   We walked everywhere downtown.  People were incredibly friendly.

 

I believe that some people do not understand just how popular Cuba is for many sun and beach goers.  What surprised us was the amount of planes coming and going and their origins.   Lots of resorts in various locations on the island.  It is one of DW's all time beach favorites.  Warm, clear, shallow water with no huge waves). 

Edited March 6, 2021 by iancal