"Fully vaccinated" = not required for 16 and under?

[phoenix_dream]

On 3/2/2021 at 12:38 PM, TeeRick said:

Everybody here??  Worked into a frenzy?  Not me and the responses I have seen from others are quite normal in the course of typical Cruise Critic conversation on an important issue involved in resuming cruising.

It is certainly an important issue and I am neither going crazy nor in a frenzy.  I am concerned, as I have a right to be since I have at least 7 upcoming cruises (late this year and then early next) scheduled on Celebrity.  Many of these are lift and shift so they have all my money.  That alone is reason enough to be concerned, although of course that is not the primary reason.

 

We are talking the same CEO here, so how he chooses to handle things definitely speaks to how he may handle things going forward.  Advertising this as a "fully vaccinated cruise" is a lie, flat out.   

 

And while testing certainly helps, you get tested 72 hours prior, you stay in a hotel, ride in a taxi, and eat in a restaurant and pick up the virus.  It is too early for it to show up on a test before boarding.  Bam.  The virus is onboard.   If they do catch it, what happens?  Another quarantined ship?  No thanks.  

[PTC DAWG]

On 3/2/2021 at 9:13 AM, phoenix_dream said:

Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but it seems a Royal ship is going to be sailing with required vaccinations only for those over 16.  They are calling it "fully vaccinated".  In what universe does allowing any number of potentially disease carrying and/or vulnerable children onboard equal fully vaccinated?  Am I interpreting this correctly that there will be children onboard, but they don't need to be vaccinated?  I think so - correct me if I am wrong.

 

This infuriates me on so many levels.  The CEO says they are going to do things 'according to the science".  Baloney.  This is doing things according to the stock price.  It is discriminatory (although I personally support required vaccinations, for the record).  Of all age groups (and I know there are issues with any, I am speaking generally) children are the least likely to follow the appropriate mask wearing and social distancing, especially the younger ones understandably.  In some studies, children have been shown to carry high viral loads in their noses and are classified as 'super spreaders".  Other studies disagree with that conclusion, with my conclusion being that we don't really know the answer to that yet. 

 

This just strikes me as wrong on so many levels.  I know that generally speaking, if children get sick they are sometimes asymptomatic or get mild symptoms, but not always the case.  But if they do get sick, what does this mean for quarantining, as well as their ability to spread it throughout the ship even to the vaccinated passengers/crew as no vaccine is 100% effective.

 

Am I the only one concerned about this?

 

 

It doesn't seem to take much to infuriate you.  IF you have your vaccine, and other adults on the ship do also, what is the big worry?  We will NEVER be protected from all viruses etc 100%.....IF that is your expectation, it's possible that travel isn't for you.  

Edited March 4, 2021 by PTC DAWG

[Jeremiah1212]

1 hour ago, PTC DAWG said:

It doesn't seem to take much to infuriate you.  IF you have your vaccine, and other adults on the ship do also, what is the big worry?  We will NEVER be protected from all viruses etc 100%.....IF that is your expectation, it's possible that travel isn't for you.  

 

I think everyone understands that part. The bigger concern for many people is they have done what they can realistically do and get vaccinated, yet they have spent several thousand dollars on a vacation and have it ruined because they came into close contact with a positive case. 

 

We have a rather expensive (for us) final payment coming due November. Of course we will watch what happens, but I, and presumably many others, will certainly take a look at switching to a cruise that is truly 100% vaccinated if I have the option when the time comes. I'm not forking over that kind of money and crossing my fingers and hoping for the best. 

[wrk2cruise]

But vaccinated people can get/carry the virus and test positive from all the information I've read (or at least there's no proof they can't/don't).   Are cruise lines going to change their procedures for vaccinated people who test positive?  Or is it going to be isolate/disembark which I believe is the current thinking?   I don't see it as any different not that I'm defending either position.

Edited March 4, 2021 by wrk2cruise

[Arizona Wildcat]

4 hours ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

 

I think everyone understands that part. The bigger concern for many people is they have done what they can realistically do and get vaccinated, yet they have spent several thousand dollars on a vacation and have it ruined because they came into close contact with a positive case. 

 

We have a rather expensive (for us) final payment coming due November. Of course we will watch what happens, but I, and presumably many others, will certainly take a look at switching to a cruise that is truly 100% vaccinated if I have the option when the time comes. I'm not forking over that kind of money and crossing my fingers and hoping for the best. 

Lots of time between now and November.  The only facts I know is being vaccinated does not guarantee that I cannot catch COVID or then give it to others.  It reduces the severity if I catch it and the likelihood of getting it.

Nothing with disease is 100%.

If you want a guarantee then you likely will not be cruising in 2021.

[zook50]

4 hours ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

 

I think everyone understands that part. The bigger concern for many people is they have done what they can realistically do and get vaccinated, yet they have spent several thousand dollars on a vacation and have it ruined because they came into close contact with a positive case. 

 

We have a rather expensive (for us) final payment coming due November. Of course we will watch what happens, but I, and presumably many others, will certainly take a look at switching to a cruise that is truly 100% vaccinated if I have the option when the time comes. I'm not forking over that kind of money and crossing my fingers and hoping for the best. 

I agree.  We all realize, as the previous poster reminded us, that certain things are not going to be 100% guaranteed.  No one is 100% sure of vaccine efficacy, protection against transmission, etc.  But we can hope that 100% of crew and guests on the cruises we've booked are vaccinated.  That will be a good start!

[cb at sea]

The vaccines are not APPROVED for younger folk.....

[jmhlin]

33 minutes ago, cb at sea said:

The vaccines are not APPROVED for younger folk.....

12-15 earliest is Q4, 8-11 is estimated Q1 2022.

[Jeremiah1212]

3 hours ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

Lots of time between now and November.  The only facts I know is being vaccinated does not guarantee that I cannot catch COVID or then give it to others.  It reduces the severity if I catch it and the likelihood of getting it.

Nothing with disease is 100%.

If you want a guarantee then you likely will not be cruising in 2021.

Understandably there are no guarantees. But in the early days of the restart, whenever that is, if I can pick between a partially vaccinated cruise and a 100% vaccinated cruise, I know which one I’m choosing. 

[docsneeze]

3 hours ago, jmhlin said:

12-15 earliest is Q4, 8-11 is estimated Q1 2022.

Not sure where you get that information.  First patient in for adults was approximately 8/1/20 and approval in mid December roughly.  From first injection to evaluation at 2-4 weeks post second injection is about 6-7 weeks, then 2 more months safety observation so about 15-16 weeks total assuming quick enrollment.  Recent report Pfizer just completed enrollment for down to 12 about 2 weeks ago I think.  So on this time line, data will be presented to FDA by June 2021 and EUA could come within 1 week afterwards.  So expect down to 12 by July in time to vaccinate before school year.  Next group after that is down to 5 or 6 y/o, already about to start enrolling, could get EUA by September.  Involved in conducting trials so good educated guess.  These are US standards and what Biden referred to as "normal" by Xmas 2021.

[docsneeze]

Biggest problem is not the kids but getting enough people to take the vaccine before more contagious variants take hold.

[tallnthensome]

6 hours ago, docsneeze said:

Biggest problem is not the kids but getting enough people to take the vaccine before more contagious variants take hold.

Yes, there are way way way too many people that are NOT going to get vaccine . These people are also the biggest complainers on why this pandemic won’t go away fast enough to get their freedoms back .... dumb. 

[docsneeze]

1 hour ago, tallnthensome said:

Yes, there are way way way too many people that are NOT going to get vaccine . These people are also the biggest complainers on why this pandemic won’t go away fast enough to get their freedoms back .... dumb. 

Concise and accurate comment!!

[jmhlin]

9 hours ago, docsneeze said:

Not sure where you get that information.  First patient in for adults was approximately 8/1/20 and approval in mid December roughly.  From first injection to evaluation at 2-4 weeks post second injection is about 6-7 weeks, then 2 more months safety observation so about 15-16 weeks total assuming quick enrollment.  Recent report Pfizer just completed enrollment for down to 12 about 2 weeks ago I think.  So on this time line, data will be presented to FDA by June 2021 and EUA could come within 1 week afterwards.  So expect down to 12 by July in time to vaccinate before school year.  Next group after that is down to 5 or 6 y/o, already about to start enrolling, could get EUA by September.  Involved in conducting trials so good educated guess.  These are US standards and what Biden referred to as "normal" by Xmas 2021.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/28/covid-vaccine-for-elementary-school-kids-likely-coming-in-2022.html

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-covid-vaccine-children-young-people-early-2022-schools-2021-3

 

"He said that Moderna was aiming to have the vaccine approval extended to adolescents ages 12 and older by this summer, so they can be vaccinated before returning to school in September. Trials began in December."

 

i think older than 12 is delayed to Q4

[Arizona Wildcat]

23 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

It is certainly an important issue and I am neither going crazy nor in a frenzy.  I am concerned, as I have a right to be since I have at least 7 upcoming cruises (late this year and then early next) scheduled on Celebrity.  Many of these are lift and shift so they have all my money.  That alone is reason enough to be concerned, although of course that is not the primary reason.

 

We are talking the same CEO here, so how he chooses to handle things definitely speaks to how he may handle things going forward.  Advertising this as a "fully vaccinated cruise" is a lie, flat out.   

 

And while testing certainly helps, you get tested 72 hours prior, you stay in a hotel, ride in a taxi, and eat in a restaurant and pick up the virus.  It is too early for it to show up on a test before boarding.  Bam.  The virus is onboard.   If they do catch it, what happens?  Another quarantined ship?  No thanks.  

I agree not wanting to be on a quaranteened ship.  Think you need to sit back, relax a bit - probably not easy for you - and wait.

You are playing a semantics game with fully vaccinated.   RCI is leaning toward vaccinating all passengers where the is a vaccine.  Obviously there will be some that cannot be vaccinated for various reasons.  RCI might exclude them or maybe there will be a vaccine available in the future or maybe a vaccination will not be required.

Bottom line is even if 100% of those on board are vaccinated it does not guarantee that ALL people on board are COVID negative or that COVID could be spread on board.

You need to decide what makes you comfortable in cruising.

[TeeRick]

I am holding off cruising until I understand exactly what happens when (not if) there are positive COVID cases reported on board.  What are the operational procedures for this?  This scenario will absolutely happen and does not matter whether everybody is vaccinated or not vaccinated.  Although the risk of Covid-positives is lower on fully vaccinated ships.  No matter.  I want to know what will happen.  Does the ship get diverted?  Do I have to stay in my cabin?  Is my vacation ruined?  Do I go home early? I just want to know the exact procedure of handling positive cases before I spend a lot on a vacation.  The recent case of MSC is a prime example.  

[paulh84]

8 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

I am holding off cruising until I understand exactly what happens when (not if) there are positive COVID cases reported on board.  What are the operational procedures for this?  This scenario will absolutely happen and does not matter whether everybody is vaccinated or not vaccinated.  Although the risk of Covid-positives is lower on fully vaccinated ships.  No matter.  I want to know what will happen.  Does the ship get diverted?  Do I have to stay in my cabin?  Is my vacation ruined?  Do I go home early? I just want to know the exact procedure of handling positive cases before I spend a lot on a vacation.  The recent case of MSC is a prime example.  

 

Exactly. People keep saying there is no 100% guarantee of this or that. We know that. It's apparent that we will be living with COVID and we will adjust. The reaction to a positive COVID case on board during the next few years is going to get met with quick attention. The question for us is do we want to spend $1000/night on our next cruise to potentially be confined to a cabin, quarantined, whatever. 

 

We may shift our next cruise to Windstar for the small ship experience. 208 people versus 4,500+ does not seem like a bad idea. 

[wrk2cruise]

25 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

The recent case of MSC is a prime example.

 

I also want to know what the actual protocols are.   The MSC isn't really much different than what happens if you are "infected" with Noro on a cruise.   Of course with Noro, they only know you are "positive" if you are symptomatic (no screening).  But it's really the same.  You are isolated to your cabin while you are contagious and usually are compensated for the days missed as a good will gesture (not required by cruise contract).

 

Oh and with Noro when disembarking they just send you off.   I had this situation where both DW and I came down with it at 3 am prior to disembarkation.   I did get the concierge to book me a hotel in FLL and delay my flight.   That and a sea sick bag and we were on our own getting off the ship.  No lunch provided 😀

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by wrk2cruise

[docsneeze]

10 minutes ago, paulh84 said:

 

Exactly. People keep saying there is no 100% guarantee of this or that. We know that. It's apparent that we will be living with COVID and we will adjust. The reaction to a positive COVID case on board during the next few years is going to get met with quick attention. The question for us is do we want to spend $1000/night on our next cruise to potentially be confined to a cabin, quarantined, whatever. 

 

We may shift our next cruise to Windstar for the small ship experience. 208 people versus 4,500+ does not seem like a bad idea. 

Ok, maybe ship itself will be safe but will people cruise comfortably without fear of exposure on excursions in the ports?  Some people are ok with unlimited sea days but most will not.  Need to consider ports too.

[TeeRick]

2 minutes ago, wrk2cruise said:

 

I also want to know what the actual protocols are.   The MSC isn't really much different than what happens if you are "infected" with Noro on a cruise.   Of course with Noro, they only know you are "positive" if you are symptomatic (no screening).  But it's really the same.  You are isolated to your cabin while you are contagious and usually are compensated for the days missed as a good will gesture (not required by cruise contract).

 

I am referring to what happens if others are infected, not me.  If you read the MSC post by emmas gran then the procedure on board is far reaching to all passengers.

[Miaminice]

11 minutes ago, paulh84 said:

The question for us is do we want to spend $1000/night on our next cruise to potentially be confined to a cabin, quarantined, whatever. 

 

You always have!!!... maybe not $1000/night, but the risk was always there.
Once we learn to live with Covid it´s going to be the same risk as if you catch any other infectious disease on board - like the prime example of Noro.

[docsneeze]

1 hour ago, jmhlin said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/28/covid-vaccine-for-elementary-school-kids-likely-coming-in-2022.html

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-covid-vaccine-children-young-people-early-2022-schools-2021-3

 

"He said that Moderna was aiming to have the vaccine approval extended to adolescents ages 12 and older by this summer, so they can be vaccinated before returning to school in September. Trials began in December."

 

i think older than 12 is delayed to Q4

I think you mean younger.  In reality, no one has all the answers but I know Dr. Fauci from our specialty meetings.  He tends to be very conservative which is a good thing.  Down to 12 is usually treated like adults in clinical trials.   Key factor down to 5 will be enrollment speed as infinitely more difficult to recruit children for research studies, understandably.

[Miaminice]

17 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

If you read the MSC post by emmas gran then the procedure on board is far reaching to all passengers.

 

Not necessarily... only to the traced contacts.
MSC and TUI sail under the same agreements with the destination ports and authorities.
TUI even has slightly strictly regulations on board. When cases occured (twice lately, 7 in total), the contacts were traced and isolated.

 

To my knowledge the normal procedure is to take them off the ship at the next possible location where they are quarantined or treated. An insurance covering the cost -and even the lost cruise days- is included in the fare.

With TUI the cases were detected during the disembarkation procedure/test, so there was no need to take them off the ship separately. All were taken to a hotel for quarantine.

With MSC it´s a bit different for the simple reason that they cruise in Italy with Italians. There´s no need to quarantine them in a hotel. They can return to their home and undergo quarantine there. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Miaminice

[jmhlin]

47 minutes ago, docsneeze said:

I think you mean younger.  In reality, no one has all the answers but I know Dr. Fauci from our specialty meetings.  He tends to be very conservative which is a good thing.  Down to 12 is usually treated like adults in clinical trials.   Key factor down to 5 will be enrollment speed as infinitely more difficult to recruit children for research studies, understandably.

I am too lazy to find those articles from google which i read a few days ago. Dr Fauci said they said planning to start 12 and younger group in April 2021. I believe that is why they are projecting Q1 2022. The 12 - 15 group phase 3 already started 2 months ago and should have a conclusion soon. it was projected before school start but he said it maybe delay until Q4 this year. that was how I read those news articles a few days ago.

 

 

[cangelmd]

1 hour ago, wrk2cruise said:

 

I also want to know what the actual protocols are.   The MSC isn't really much different than what happens if you are "infected" with Noro on a cruise.   Of course with Noro, they only know you are "positive" if you are symptomatic (no screening).  But it's really the same.  You are isolated to your cabin while you are contagious and usually are compensated for the days missed as a good will gesture (not required by cruise contract).

 

Oh and with Noro when disembarking they just send you off.   I had this situation where both DW and I came down with it at 3 am prior to disembarkation.   I did get the concierge to book me a hotel in FLL and delay my flight.   That and a sea sick bag and we were on our own getting off the ship.  No lunch provided 😀

 

Did you really want lunch?