COVID Being brought under Control

[ilikeanswers]

40 minutes ago, BoozinCroozin said:

A part of the store does is all. But the rest of it is non-essential. 

 

But if the items are for everyday living (e.g toilet paper😜) then it seems justifiable that Walmart be open. Unless you are preper with 10 years supplies of can food and toiletries I think most people need somewhere to purchase these products😄. What I found bizarre was how many countries deemed liquor stores essential😝.

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

But if the items are for everyday living (e.g toilet paper😜) then it seems justifiable that Walmart be open. Unless you are preper with 10 years supplies of can food and toiletries I think most people need somewhere to purchase these products😄. What I found bizarre was how many countries deemed liquor stores essential😝.

I think I have read of an argument for keeping liquor stores open. It goes like this. It is to help the hospitals from getting overwhelmed since it prevents alcoholics from getting DTs and having to go to the emergency room.

 

Note, this is not an endorsement of the argument, just stating it.

 

And how many states deemed gun shops as essential businesses?

[Markanddonna]

Things are much more encouraging here in the midwest as far as COVID, but so many of our travel plans are so up in the air because of other countries' experiences with the poor vaccination rollout.

 

I want to go Europe and Australia/New Zealand late this year and next spring. I have family in Poland who report the schools are now closed (not in person) and Paris and parts of Italy are in lock down. We are ready for NCL to cancel our November Med cruise.

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I think I have read of an argument for keeping liquor stores open. It goes like this. It is to help the hospitals from getting overwhelmed since it prevents alcoholics from getting DTs and having to go to the emergency room.

 

I've heard that argument but I think it is more or less propaganda from the alcohol industry🤔. I've yet a hear a doctor endorse this point of view. All the doctors here seem more concerned about creating addicts and adding to mental health woes😳 and the public has been quick to point out the hypocrisy if you compare with drug addiction, yet to hear anyone suggest a free for all on drugs😂.

[cruisemom42]

To get back to the issue of COVID being. under control, the jury is still out. Reaching a plateau of nearly 55,000 cases per day is still not exactly "control", in my mind. And if you look at how the virus has behaved so far, each time we have had a plateau in the past year, it has been followed by a rebound.

 

I know people are putting a lot of faith in vaccines, and I agree they are a game changer -- BUT they are not the entire solution. Because to offset vaccination, the spread of new and more infectious variants is being reported in certain areas (and remember, COVID itself didn't start in all areas at once, it is a slow spread).

 

IMO this is not the time to go hog wild and open everything up again. Even though our vaccination rates are higher than Europe (23% vs 13% on average), that is nowhere near enough to create herd immunity.

 

[Aplmac]

When your toilet stops working
you will very quickly figure out

what hardware and plumbing stores are essential.. VERY essential!

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

To get back to the issue of COVID being. under control, the jury is still out. Reaching a plateau of nearly 55,000 cases per day is still not exactly "control", in my mind. And if you look at how the virus has behaved so far, each time we have had a plateau in the past year, it has been followed by a rebound.

 

I know people are putting a lot of faith in vaccines, and I agree they are a game changer -- BUT they are not the entire solution. Because to offset vaccination, the spread of new and more infectious variants is being reported in certain areas (and remember, COVID itself didn't start in all areas at once, it is a slow spread).

 

IMO this is not the time to go hog wild and open everything up again. Even though our vaccination rates are higher than Europe (23% vs 13% on average), that is nowhere near enough to create herd immunity.

 

I do not believe in "herd immunity" for any virus for which there is not a long lasting vaccine!  For the past year we have been dealing with a mix of some excellent advice from experts to the politics of fear (but it is for our own good).  There will not be herd immunity for COVID, but I do believe that the combination of vaccines and natural immunity will have COVID under control in the USA by early summer.  Covid will still be with us, but most high risk folks will not longer be at significant risk and the large majority of the remaining population will also have immunity....even if it is only temporary.  So the math supports a period of control which might be lost in the future as both natural and vaccine immunity starts to wane.  Getting folks to get annual or bi-annual boosters will prove a major future challenge (we see this with other vaccines).  

 

But the constant politics of fear is something new and getting politicians to give up their new found power (fueled by fear) is going to be difficult.  We need to accept that society must live with COVID and resume a normal life just like we have learned to live with flu and many other diseases.  The alternative is unspeakable which would be to give up our way of life and become a semi-isolated society with a horrid economy and vastly increased mental health issues.

 

Speaking of vaccines and variants it does appear that the current vaccines are quite effective against all the known variants even if their effectiveness is somewhat diminished.  Part of the new "politics of fear" is to say things line "we must continue to lock down because of the chance of an unknown variant causing another surge."   That is like saying we must all live underground because of the possibility of a future meteor strike.   Of course there is a risk of a nasty variant resistant to everything just like there is a risk of 50 new viruses and bacteria that could destroy the earth.  We cannot continue to live our lives in fear (unfortunately there are already many folks who have had their mental health destroyed because of their own internal fear).  

 

So let us put this thing in perspective.  Because of vaccines and natural immunity the death rate from COVID will quickly fall in countries with effective vaccination programs.  This happens because it is the most at risk folks who are among the first to get vaccinated.   The original fear that our hospitals (I am speaking about the USA) would be overwhelmed is no longer a big risk and our healthcare system can now handle the volume of COVID cases.   Yes, we will continue to have folks getting sick with COVID (mostly their own fault because they refuse to be vaccinated) but most cases  (95%+) will be manageable outside a hospital setting.   And that is my prediction :).

 

Hank

P.S.  Just heard on the news that the US topped 3 million vaccinations yesterday.  A few weeks ago that would have been only 1 million.  Many do not realize (because the mass media does not want to talk about it) that the Trump administration contracted for approximately 800 million vaccine doses before we even had a vaccine.  This early gamble is now paying off....big time!

[CruiserBruce]

21 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

P.S.  Just heard on the news that the US topped 3 million vaccinations yesterday.  A few weeks ago that would have been only 1 million.  Many do not realize (because the mass media does not want to talk about it) that the Trump administration contracted for approximately 800 million vaccine doses before we even had a vaccine.  This early gamble is now paying off....big time!

If you are going to inject (pun intended) politics into the discussion, lets get the facts straight. Yes, the Trump administration wisely bet on every horse in the race when it came to contracting for vaccines. HOWEVER, 500 million of those Trump contracted doses come from vendors who haven't been approved yet, including AstraZenica, whom they contracted for 400 million alone. So if we stayed with the Trump plan, we would not have enough vaccine for all adults in the US for a while longer.

 

The Biden Administration has contracted for an addition 500 million doses from J&J, Moderna and Pfizer, bringing the total for actually approved vaccines to 800 million. So we have more than enough for all Americans, including children, when they are approved for vaccination. And other acts (using the DPA and the production merger of J&J and Merck, for example) has sped up the production so hopefully we get widespread vaccination ASAP.

[iancal]

Israel has done a fabulous job on vaccinations.   In the 70 percent plus range.

 

BUT...they still have a significant covid problem with an increasing number of new cases.

 

I do not believe that it is prudent to assume that increased vaccination rates will solve the covid issue.  There is so much that we still do not know about covid and about the mutations.

Edited March 21, 2021 by iancal

[wowzz]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

Even though our vaccination rates are higher than Europe (23% vs 13% on average), that is nowhere near enough to create herd immunity.

Over 50% of the UK population have now received at least one vaccination. Continental Europe has millions of vaccines in stock, but seem incapable of actually carrying out an efficient vaccination programme. 

UK government has more or less said that Brits will not be able to visit Europe this summer - countries such as Spain will suffer dire financial consequences as a result.

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I've heard that argument but I think it is more or less propaganda from the alcohol industry🤔. I've yet a hear a doctor endorse this point of view. All the doctors here seem more concerned about creating addicts and adding to mental health woes😳 and the public has been quick to point out the hypocrisy if you compare with drug addiction, yet to hear anyone suggest a free for all on drugs😂.

My son, who is a drug and alcohol counselor, was the one who told me that theory. He had heard that that was the reason.

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

Israel has done a fabulous job on vaccinations.   In the 70 percent plus range.

 

BUT...they still have a significant covid problem with an increasing number of new cases.

 

I do not believe that it is prudent to assume that increased vaccination rates will solve the covid issue.  There is so much that we still do not know about covid and about the mutations.

What you say is a myth easily refuted with the current data.   You can see for yourself

Israel Coronavirus: 827,428 Cases and 6,085 Deaths - Worldometer (worldometers.info)

 

Look at the the daily new cases, daily deaths, and current active cases.  They are significantly down.  

 

Hank

 

[clo]

4 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

If you are going to inject (pun intended) politics into the discussion, lets get the facts straight

Don't confuse them with the facts. It's just annoys you and them 🙂

[frantic36]

Let's just say we will agree to disagree as I followed this closely. No more politics please.

[Hlitner]

36 minutes ago, frantic36 said:

Let's just say we will agree to disagree as I followed this closely. No more politics please.

One correction to my post is that I said the vaccines were all under development by the summer of 2021 and that was a typo and should have said summer of 2020.

 

Hank

[ilikeanswers]

8 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

One correction to my post is that I said the vaccines were all under development by the summer of 2021 and that was a typo and should have said summer of 2020.

 

I'm reading that and my first thought was there was a vaccine in January last year😳 😂. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by ilikeanswers

[Hlitner]

6 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I'm reading that and my first thought is there was a vaccine in January last year😳 😂. 

What year?  2020?  We hardly knew there was COVID in Jan 2020.    The first COVID vaccine to get emergency approval here in the USA was in December 2020 and that was the Pfizer/BioNtech 2 shot vaccine (which I have in my arm).  I am not sure if any vaccines were approved by any Western country prior to December 2020!   I do not think the EU approved the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine until Jan 2021!  I think some countries also approved the Russian Sputnik V around Jan 2021.

 

If you really want the specific dates it probably can be found in the Internet.  And what I posted earlier was not at all political but simply the facts as they developed in our country.  I lived in Mexico this winter and watched as they got their first vaccines (Pfizer and Sputnik V) in Feb 2021. .  When I returned to the USA last week both DW and I were able to immediately get the Pfizer Vaccine (my personal preference).   When it comes to politicians I would simply send all the world's politicians and lawyers to a small island somewhere and let them try to impress each other 🙂

 

Come to think of it perhaps your country could just stick them somewhere in the Outback.

 

Hank

[ilikeanswers]

46 minutes ago, frantic36 said:

Let's just say we will agree to disagree as I followed this closely. No more politics please.

 

This might be of interest to read. It gives you an insider view of OWS:

Proud of vaccine success, Warp Speed’s ex–science head talks politics, presidents, and future pandemics

[ilikeanswers]

16 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

What year?  2020?  We hardly knew there was COVID in Jan 2020.    The first COVID vaccine to get emergency approval here in the USA was in December 2020 and that was the Pfizer/BioNtech 2 shot vaccine (which I have in my arm).  I am not sure if any vaccines were approved by any Western country prior to December 2020!   I do not think the EU approved the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine until Jan 2021!  I think some countries also approved the Russian Sputnik V around Jan 2021.

 

If you really want the specific dates it probably can be found in the Internet.  And what I posted earlier was not at all political but simply the facts as they developed in our country.  I lived in Mexico this winter and watched as they got their first vaccines (Pfizer and Sputnik V) in Feb 2021. .  When I returned to the USA last week both DW and I were able to immediately get the Pfizer Vaccine (my personal preference).   When it comes to politicians I would simply send all the world's politicians and lawyers to a small island somewhere and let them try to impress each other 🙂

 

Come to think of it perhaps your country could just stick them somewhere in the Outback.

 

Hank

 

I think you misunderstood my post. You were correcting your years but I was thinking how your summer is our winter. So saying summer 2020 to an Aussie is saying somewhere in January and February😂 so even if you correct your years for half the world it would still be the wrong date. Sorry I have a weird sense of humour 😜. 

[SelectSys]

24 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

And what I posted earlier was not at all political but simply the facts as they developed in our country.

It can be confusing for some when the facts sometimes don't fit a popular or preconceived narrative.

 

11 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

This might be of interest to read

Thanks!  That is an interesting read.

 

5 minutes ago, clo said:

I wish you would give verifiable and reputable citations to support what you write. Fewer words and more citations

This congressional research service report lists all of the Operation Warp Speed contracts.  This includes 600 millions doses of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.   

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IN/IN11560

 

[frantic36]

21 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

This might be of interest to read. It gives you an insider view of OWS:

Proud of vaccine success, Warp Speed’s ex–science head talks politics, presidents, and future pandemics

 

Very interesting read so thank you for the link, but I still am not wanting to discuss as politics is involved.

[SelectSys]

15 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

turns out we needed them for a more rapid vaccination program, and sounds like they will be here by the end of May

As far as I can tell the current admin has bought an additional 300 million doses over those acquired previously. 100 million each from Pfizer, Moderna, and J&J.

 

https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2021/02/11/biden-administration-purchases-additional-doses-covid-19-vaccines-from-pfizer-and-moderna.html

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/10/biden-100-million-doses-johnson-johnson-vaccine-475054

 

Perhaps the previous admin was waiting on approval of another vaccine candidate? I see the current Admin is now shipping US purchased AstraZeneca vaccine to Canada and Mexico.  I guess the current admin decided not to wait to complete the trials and to go with the current vaccines.

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/19/979279426/biden-takes-first-jab-at-vaccine-diplomacy-sharing-doses-with-mexico-canada

While AstraZeneca's vaccine has been approved for use in many other countries, including Mexico and Canada, it still hasn't been given emergency use authorization by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. So, the White House announced it is working through the technicalities to loan 2.5 million doses to Mexico and 1.5 million doses to Canada from its stockpile of 7 million doses.

Edited March 22, 2021 by SelectSys

[ilikeanswers]

20 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

Perhaps the previous admin was waiting on approval of another vaccine candidate? I see the current Admin is now shipping US purchased AstraZeneca vaccine to Canada and Mexico.  I guess the current admin decided not to wait to complete the trials and to go with the current vaccines.

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/19/979279426/biden-takes-first-jab-at-vaccine-diplomacy-sharing-doses-with-mexico-canada

While AstraZeneca's vaccine has been approved for use in many other countries, including Mexico and Canada, it still hasn't been given emergency use authorization by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. So, the White House announced it is working through the technicalities to loan 2.5 million doses to Mexico and 1.5 million doses to Canada from its stockpile of 7 million doses.

 

It is probably because they will expire before approval. Better to give them away than waste them. South Africa got batch with 15 April expiry, they say they may not be able to get it to everyone in time.

[Toofarfromthesea]

8 hours ago, frantic36 said:

Let's just say we will agree to disagree as I followed this closely. No more politics please.

 

Get comprehensively proven wrong and therefore want to shut down the discussion.  "Politics is better for me than thee".

Edited March 22, 2021 by Toofarfromthesea

[jfunk138]

"The 27-year-old's vaccination card shows she received her second dose of the Pfizer vaccine on January 12. She said she found out she was positive on March 18 from one of the routine tests she takes weekly for work. Believing it might be a false positive, Rewerts said she took a rapid test, which also came back positive.

She said her mother and two other family members – all fully vaccinated – also tested positive this week. They are experiencing symptoms."

 

Not only did these fully vaccinated people get symptomatic Covid, they apparently also spread Covid, since they were all vaccinated.

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2021/03/19/breakthrough-cases-of-covid-19-impact-the-fully-vaccinated
 

Edited March 22, 2021 by jfunk138