Natural immunity and no vaccine shot

[DirtyDawg]

10 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Please just THINK.

@navybankerteacher, the eternal optimist! 😉

 

I think you would have better odds of refloating the Titanic than getting some of these folks to actually think. 🚢

[Anita Latte]

10 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

When applied across the board vaccine is pretty inexpensive -- while treatment --- which at this time might involve anything from one day to several months hospitalization --- is very expensive -- and to date has not seen anything near the success rate that prevention has. 

 

The sterilizing pill treatment currently under development that could be available by the end of the year is talked about here:

 

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-initiates-phase-1-study-novel-oral-antiviral

 

Without a sterilizing vaccine, COVID continues to circulate...even among the vaccinated. It is why I said that the pandemic will not end even if everyone is vaccinated, but that this sterilizing treatment would actually mean the end of the pandemic.

 

8 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

No vaccine is 100% effective, not even the smallpox vaccine -- which has very similar efficacy to the mRNA COVID vaccines.  Yet it is the success of this vaccine, not any therapy, that led to the eradication of this disease worldwide by the 1980s.

 

First of all...it would appear that you have never heard the whole reading causes hemorrhoids in any class...this is a classic example given to show how seemingly logical conclusions really aren't...maybe it was just my teacher...IDK. I wasn't serious...LOL.

 

The smallpox vaccine was a sterilizing vaccine. The antibody response in the system completely irradiated the virus to prevent transmission of the virus. The current COVID vaccines are not sterilizing vaccines. Their intent was to prevent severe cases of COVID, especially hospitalizations, and deaths due to COVID...to prevent symptomatic COVID or reduce COVID cases to flu-like symptoms. The vaccinated continue to be COVID carriers. Questions following COVID vaccinations include what is the viral load that vaccinated continue to carry and, more importantly, what viral load threshold is needed for transmission, or rather below which line will transmission be halted. This is a contributing factor to why the reasoning used to be that the vaccinated should continue to wear masks...because of these unknowns. 

 

@mayleeman Just to say...you come across as very kind. I assume that I am vaccinated with the normal school requirements. I have a vague memory of needing a booster of something...maybe tetanus? before going to college. I was a child when I was vaccinated, so of course I didn't research that. You do bring up some things I will think about. I know I have an extreme distrust of the medical field...everyone who knows me knows this. I don't know the origin...but it is extreme...and as such, I have made some unusual decisions to avoid certain medical interventions. Case in point, I had what was called a missed miscarriage and rather than be subjected to a D&C, I went home to deal with situation. I had this conversation on a different thread regarding my lack of participation in traditional medical care...IDK if people seriously trust their doctors? Or if they just get over it because they believe in the positiveness of the actions even if they don't actually trust their doctors individually? I. Just. Don't.

 

I can be stubborn about certain things but I am a lifelong learner...even though some... @DirtyDawg would disbelieve that statement. My thoughts may not be everyone's thoughts...but that doesn't discount whether or not I'm thinking...especially if you just don't like my thoughts. But that goes back to the judgment and condemnation that I referred to in my "diatribe".

 

As for what you said mayleeman about people being harsh towards me...that's only because I put myself out there. If you present a target, people will hit it. I don't think it's been exceedingly harsh. This is one of those topics of conversation...people feel passionately about it, however people think or feel about it.

 

 

[Joebucks]

11 hours ago, Hlitner said:

With all due respect to our poster from the UK, these vaccines are simply fantastic!  I spent a lifetime in healthcare world and we never had these kind of tools so early in the process.  The two mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) although said to be about 96% effective appear to be closer to 99% effective at protection fully vaccinated recipients.  The J&J/Jansen is not quite as effective but is still about 66% effective and near 100% effective at preventing serious cases, hospitalization, and death.  The Astra-Zenica vaccine (not used here in the USA) is also very effective.

 

While I briefly skimmed over the info, I was reading that the J&J 66% is not what it seems. From what I understand, each vaccine was comparing different data. The J&J was testing with all variants, while the others, were not. 

[Anita Latte]

1 minute ago, Joebucks said:

 

While I briefly skimmed over the info, I was reading that the J&J 66% is not what it seems. From what I understand, each vaccine was comparing different data. The J&J was testing with all variants, while the others, were not. 

 

Yes, the J&J vaccine trials took place in the US, in Brazil, and in India...IIRC. You can readily find the three different efficacies for the different trial locations online which have been combined to create the singular efficacy reported. The most interesting stat with the J&J vaccine was that there was not a single hospitalization or death in their trials...so they state it is 100% effective against death and hospitalization due to COVID.

[Hlitner]

14 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

 

While I briefly skimmed over the info, I was reading that the J&J 66% is not what it seems. From what I understand, each vaccine was comparing different data. The J&J was testing with all variants, while the others, were not. 

It was kind of a smoke/mirrors thing.  It is true that the J&J did well against most of the variants around at the time.  On the other hand, with over 100 million folks being fully vaccinated we now know that both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines also do well against all the variants (although I have read about some concerns about a Brazilian variant (P2) which is a highly contagious variant.  None of the vaccines (including J&J) was tested against P2 (because it did not exist at the time) and we will have to wait a few more weeks to know how well the vaccines do against this variant.  

 

But I keep saying we need to look at the real facts rather then listen to the mixed messages we get from our so-called experts.  Think back 2 months ago and you would hear, on a daily basis, that we need to quickly get folks vaccinated before new variants overtake the vaccines.  In the USA, UK, and Israel (countries with very successful vaccine programs) the variants have caused very few problems against any of the vaccines.  Today you do not hear our "experts" expressing a lot of concerns about the current variants.  That being said it is hard to ignore what recently happened on the NY Yankees where eight people have tested positive for COVID (I do not know the variants) and all 8 had been inoculated with the J&J.  Given the size of that cohort those breakthroughs are statistically significant.  No such group breakthrough has been reported with the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine.   And the fact still remains that even a single shot of the Moderna or Pfizer seems to give better efficacy then the J&J  (80% vs 66%).  At the risk of quoting Dr; Fauci, when asked about this he simply said that both Moderna and Pfizer generate a lot of antibodies 2 weeks after the first shot but the 2nd shot gives a major boost (increase) in antibodies which should make those two vaccines more resistant to future variants.

 

Hank

 

 

[2wheelin]

1 hour ago, Anita Latte said:

 

The sterilizing pill treatment currently under development that could be available by the end of the year is talked about here:

 

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-initiates-phase-1-study-novel-oral-antiviral

 

Without a sterilizing vaccine, COVID continues to circulate...even among the vaccinated. It is why I said that the pandemic will not end even if everyone is vaccinated, but that this sterilizing treatment would actually mean the end of the pandemic.

 

 

First of all...it would appear that you have never heard the whole reading causes hemorrhoids in any class...this is a classic example given to show how seemingly logical conclusions really aren't...maybe it was just my teacher...IDK. I wasn't serious...LOL.

 

The smallpox vaccine was a sterilizing vaccine. The antibody response in the system completely irradiated the virus to prevent transmission of the virus. The current COVID vaccines are not sterilizing vaccines. Their intent was to prevent severe cases of COVID, especially hospitalizations, and deaths due to COVID...to prevent symptomatic COVID or reduce COVID cases to flu-like symptoms. The vaccinated continue to be COVID carriers. Questions following COVID vaccinations include what is the viral load that vaccinated continue to carry and, more importantly, what viral load threshold is needed for transmission, or rather below which line will transmission be halted. This is a contributing factor to why the reasoning used to be that the vaccinated should continue to wear masks...because of these unknowns. 

 

@mayleeman Just to say...you come across as very kind. I assume that I am vaccinated with the normal school requirements. I have a vague memory of needing a booster of something...maybe tetanus? before going to college. I was a child when I was vaccinated, so of course I didn't research that. You do bring up some things I will think about. I know I have an extreme distrust of the medical field...everyone who knows me knows this. I don't know the origin...but it is extreme...and as such, I have made some unusual decisions to avoid certain medical interventions. Case in point, I had what was called a missed miscarriage and rather than be subjected to a D&C, I went home to deal with situation. I had this conversation on a different thread regarding my lack of participation in traditional medical care...IDK if people seriously trust their doctors? Or if they just get over it because they believe in the positiveness of the actions even if they don't actually trust their doctors individually? I. Just. Don't.

 

I can be stubborn about certain things but I am a lifelong learner...even though some... @DirtyDawg would disbelieve that statement. My thoughts may not be everyone's thoughts...but that doesn't discount whether or not I'm thinking...especially if you just don't like my thoughts. But that goes back to the judgment and condemnation that I referred to in my "diatribe".

 

As for what you said mayleeman about people being harsh towards me...that's only because I put myself out there. If you present a target, people will hit it. I don't think it's been exceedingly harsh. This is one of those topics of conversation...people feel passionately about it, however people think or feel about it.

 

 

Thank you for being one of the few people on here to actually understand the research they do. And for being able to present your views on an intellectual level, contrary to those who have been condemning others by name calling if they disagree with their own superficial understanding. I read comments in hopes of learning things, not to see derogatory name calling. After 40 years in medical research, I understand how confusing the data can sometimes be and that open minds are best.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Anita Latte said:

 

The sterilizing pill treatment currently under development that could be available by the end of the year is talked about here:

 

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-initiates-phase-1-study-novel-oral-antiviral

 

Without a sterilizing vaccine, COVID continues to circulate...even among the vaccinated. It is why I said that the pandemic will not end even if everyone is vaccinated, but that this sterilizing treatment would actually mean the end of the pandemic.

 

 

 

 

Am I reading the article in your link correctly? I believe it says they are working on an oral sterilizing TREATMENT,  not a vaccine.

 

We can all agree that treatment and prevention are both important. But, one problem I see with the treatment as a way of stopping the spread is that people can be both asymptomatic and able to spread the virus. It seems to me this population would not be taking the treatment as they felt no symptoms.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Anita Latte said:

First of all...it would appear that you have never heard the whole reading causes hemorrhoids in any class...this is a classic example given to show how seemingly logical conclusions really aren't...maybe it was just my teacher...IDK. I wasn't serious...LOL.

 

The smallpox vaccine was a sterilizing vaccine. The antibody response in the system completely irradiated the virus to prevent transmission of the virus. The current COVID vaccines are not sterilizing vaccines. Their intent was to prevent severe cases of COVID, especially hospitalizations, and deaths due to COVID...to prevent symptomatic COVID or reduce COVID cases to flu-like symptoms. The vaccinated continue to be COVID carriers. Questions following COVID vaccinations include what is the viral load that vaccinated continue to carry and, more importantly, what viral load threshold is needed for transmission, or rather below which line will transmission be halted. This is a contributing factor to why the reasoning used to be that the vaccinated should continue to wear masks...because of these unknowns. 

 

Sorry, perhaps I should have been clearer and more detailed in my response. I understand the point of your analogy, but it is an analogy that is more useful as an illustration of how non-scientific media (and people) jump to assumptions that are not supported by data. The point I was trying to emphasize is that science has already shown that the effectiveness of the vaccines is not a false correlation, so it should not even really be a matter of debate -- or hesitation.

 

Regarding sterilizing immunity, that is a rather nuanced concept. It's not so much a "black or white" proposition as a continuum. Almost all effective vaccines protect against infection to some extent. The COVID vaccine trials were not designed to evaluate this effect specifically, however, because the goal was to make them available quickly in order to prevent excess mortality. Complete lack of transmission is a difficult goalpost. However, the absence of positive proof does not necessarily imply the negative. 

 

Also, from a public health perspective, a vaccine does not have to be sterilizing to effect a worthwhile herd immunity. There is a good article in Scientific American, for example:  Vaccines Need Not Completely Stop COVID Transmission to Curb the Pandemic - Scientific American  (And I'll point out that more and more, the "real world" data points to the vaccines -- at least the mRNA ones -- as being (shall we say) further along the continuum toward "sterilizing" than was originally hypothesized.)

 

Finally, just a word regarding vaccination versus treatment. Treatment is wonderful, but no substitute for control. If you wait until people get sick and treat them, you have:

• increased morbidity:  e.g., people have to feel sick before they seek treatment, so likely they've already lost work days or been unable to work, etc.
• increased transmission of disease to others:  diseases are often infectious to others well before they reach the level of making you feel ill enough to seek treatment.
• increased risk of other sequelae of infection:  we don't yet know enough about COVID to assume that seeking treatment once infected is enough to ward off the effects that are being experienced by COVID "long-haulers", for example.
• increased cost:  vaccinating people results in a lower overall "health cost" than treating them, in general. Many of the proposed therapies are quite expensive (MAbs and the like). Who is going to foot the bill for this and how do we ensure that people with limited access to healthcare are able to get treated?

[Anita Latte]

3 hours ago, 2wheelin said:

Thank you for being one of the few people on here to actually understand the research they do. And for being able to present your views on an intellectual level, contrary to those who have been condemning others by name calling if they disagree with their own superficial understanding. I read comments in hopes of learning things, not to see derogatory name calling. After 40 years in medical research, I understand how confusing the data can sometimes be and that open minds are best.

 

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to post. I do a lot of reading and research and I do strive to actually understand what I'm reading.

 

3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Am I reading the article in your link correctly? I believe it says they are working on an oral sterilizing TREATMENT,  not a vaccine.

 

We can all agree that treatment and prevention are both important. But, one problem I see with the treatment as a way of stopping the spread is that people can be both asymptomatic and able to spread the virus. It seems to me this population would not be taking the treatment as they felt no symptoms.

 

Yes. TREATMENT, just like I said in my comment pointing to the press release. The current vaccines do not completely stop the spread of COVID and the PANDEMIC will not end until the actual spread of COVID is halted. A lot of chatter in the scientific community is talking about the current vaccines as being the "first generation" of COVID vaccines. I've read that they anticipate that everyone will have to be inoculated again in 2022, give or take. The idea is that prevention and treatment will work together to actually end the pandemic, with the treatment actually sterilizing whatever breakthrough cases occur. Since breakthrough cases WILL occur, because even in the vaccinated population, the virus is still present, I expressed the opinion that vaccinations will not end the pandemic...and maybe my intent would have read better to say that vaccines ALONE will not end the pandemic, but that is what I was trying to say. The pandemic will truly end when treatment such as the one Pfizer is developing, which actually stops the virus, is available.

 

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Sorry, perhaps I should have been clearer and more detailed in my response. I understand the point of your analogy, but it is an analogy that is more useful as an illustration of how non-scientific media (and people) jump to assumptions that are not supported by data. The point I was trying to emphasize is that science has already shown that the effectiveness of the vaccines is not a false correlation, so it should not even really be a matter of debate -- or hesitation.

 

Regarding sterilizing immunity, that is a rather nuanced concept. It's not so much a "black or white" proposition as a continuum. Almost all effective vaccines protect against infection to some extent. The COVID vaccine trials were not designed to evaluate this effect specifically, however, because the goal was to make them available quickly in order to prevent excess mortality. Complete lack of transmission is a difficult goalpost. However, the absence of positive proof does not necessarily imply the negative. 

 

Also, from a public health perspective, a vaccine does not have to be sterilizing to effect a worthwhile herd immunity. There is a good article in Scientific American, for example:  Vaccines Need Not Completely Stop COVID Transmission to Curb the Pandemic - Scientific American  (And I'll point out that more and more, the "real world" data points to the vaccines -- at least the mRNA ones -- as being (shall we say) further along the continuum toward "sterilizing" than was originally hypothesized.)

 

Finally, just a word regarding vaccination versus treatment. Treatment is wonderful, but no substitute for control. If you wait until people get sick and treat them, you have:

• increased morbidity:  e.g., people have to feel sick before they seek treatment, so likely they've already lost work days or been unable to work, etc.
• increased transmission of disease to others:  diseases are often infectious to others well before they reach the level of making you feel ill enough to seek treatment.
• increased risk of other sequelae of infection:  we don't yet know enough about COVID to assume that seeking treatment once infected is enough to ward off the effects that are being experienced by COVID "long-haulers", for example.
• increased cost:  vaccinating people results in a lower overall "health cost" than treating them, in general. Many of the proposed therapies are quite expensive (MAbs and the like). Who is going to foot the bill for this and how do we ensure that people with limited access to healthcare are able to get treated?

 

Again, I think that my opinion would have been better expressed if I had included the word ONLY in taking about vaccines ending the pandemic. Vaccines, the current vaccines anyway, will not end the pandemic. The vaccines were designed to prevent severe illness NOT to stop infection. As you say, and as I said earlier, the virus load that the vaccinated carry has not been studied and is unknown. When people are talking about immunity to COVID because of the vaccine, I think they are not understanding that the vaccine is really against COVID the disease which is caused by infection with the Sars-COV-2 virus. The virus and the disease are two separate things...like HIV and AIDS. So the vaccine is against COVID, but not necessarily against Sars-COV-2. 

 

The Yankees coaching staff is a perfect example of how the virus is still spreading among the vaccinated. The J&J has a lower efficacy in general than the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, (though I think it is higher against hospitalizations and deaths...keep in mind that efficacy can be expressed against hospitalizations and death, against severe COVID, and against mild COVID). Only 1 of 8 that tested positive had any symptoms at all, and these went away. This means that the J&J vaccine worked exactly as it was intended to work. It stopped the vaccinated from getting severe COVID, having to be hospitalized, or even dying. Thumbs up.

 

But again...this points to the idea that vaccines alone will not STOP the pandemic. The virus will STILL be out there, even if the entire world is vaccinated.

 

As a side note...has everyone read the information on the potential link between poor dental health and severe COVID? In seeking to answer the question of WHY some are struck worse with COVID, they've studied dental health and specifically periodontal pockets. Viral load in saliva is a fairly good indicator of severity of COVID. The thinking is that the virus is getting fast tracked into the blood stream through periodontal pockets and thus this is how COVID is affecting the lungs and hearts of some worse than others. Amazingly enough, in addition to improved dental health in general, mouthwash is said to be sufficient to kill the virus itself to prevent the replication further into the body. It's the same mechanism that links dental health and cardiac health.

[navybankerteacher]

On 5/18/2021 at 2:38 PM, Anita Latte said:

 

…

 

Not a single covid vaccine is 100% effective. Not a single covid vaccine is a sterilizing vaccine. Covid will continue to spread even if the entire world is vaccinated. You know what might stop the pandemic? Effective treatment. The sterilizing treatment pill that may be offered by the end of the year. THAT may end the current pandemic.

Don’t you realize that what you are talking about when discussing “treatment” vs. “vaccine” is simply another sort of vaccine?   Referring to it as a “sterilizing treatment” does not make it not a “vaccine” — it is a pre-emptive preventative and not a “treatment” —- any more than oral polio vaccine (probably the most successful vaccine in history) was a “treatment”.

 

”Treatment” for a disease means handling it once it has been contracted, “vaccination” (when effective) means preventing it so no “treatment “ will be necessary.

Edited May 19, 2021 by navybankerteacher

[Toofarfromthesea]

16 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

The car analogy is terrible because we do a lot to mitigate risk and change behaviour. We penalise people for driving drunk, we make you get a licence to drive to prove you are qualified to operate said vehicle, we build roads in certain ways to control how people drive their vehicles. We don't just let people to what they want when they drive a car. 

No it is not terrible because despite all of those ameliorating actions people still die in cars.  A lot of them.  And yet we still allow driving and cars.  If we truly believed in a "if it saves just one life . . ." philosophy driving, as well as virtually all human activity would come to a grinding halt.  And lest you think I am being hyperbolic, the NJ governor just used the "if it saves just one life . . ." argument to justify not lifting lockdown restrictions.

[Anita Latte]

4 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Don’t you realize that what you are talking about when discussing “treatment” vs. “vaccine” is simply another sort of vaccine?   Referring to it as a “sterilizing treatment” does not make it not a “vaccine” — it is a pre-emptive preventative and not a “treatment” —- any more than oral polio vaccine (probably the most successful vaccine in history) was a “treatment”.

 

”Treatment” for a disease means handling it once it has been contracted, “vaccination” (when effective) means preventing it so no “treatment “ will be necessary.

 

No I don't, but I'm willing to listen. To me, taking a sterilizing treatment pill, (aka an anti-viral pill), at the first sign of infection is a treatment. Isn't there a pill for the flu that is similar? To me, that is treatment and I don't consider that falling into the vaccine category. From my perspective, the anti-viral, sterilizing treatment pill would work similar to an anti-biotic which is taken if you have a bacterial infection...to treat the bacterial infection. They are testing this treatment pill against Sars-Cov-2 in specific and coronaviruses in general...so...again, I don't see how this is a vaccine...but please explain further, because I don't get there from your post.

[Anita Latte]

4 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

No it is not terrible because despite all of those ameliorating actions people still die in cars.  A lot of them.  And yet we still allow driving and cars.  If we truly believed in a "if it saves just one life . . ." philosophy driving, as well as virtually all human activity would come to a grinding halt.  And lest you think I am being hyperbolic, the NJ governor just used the "if it saves just one life . . ." argument to justify not lifting lockdown restrictions.

 

I can't help it...

 

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door." ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings

[Colin117]

I'm very much with Anita here.  Covid is here to stay and vaccinating everyone isn't going to change that.   Our aim ought to be to get as many people immune to the virus as possible and that's surely done by either getting Covid and recovering from it or by getting vaccinated and hoping you're not in the 5% that the vaccines don't protect.   As Anita says, millions and millions of people have now had Covid and recovered and so are surely well protected going forward.   Many people already had some immunity from past infections of colds and Influenza.    I just can't understand why there is this relentless push to get everyone vaccinated at all costs and why the MSM is now embarking on a horrible propaganda campaign to try and demonise those not taking the vaccines.  It's as if there is some ulterior motive behind it all.

 

I'm wholly not in agreement with those here who think the human adaptive immune system needs to be taught twice how to recognise this virus.  That's just not science.  It's a debasement of virology.  There is no tangible benefit that I know of for a previous Covid sufferer to get vaccinated.   Their bodies already know how to recognise the virus and have generated the T and B Cells needed for future protection.

 

We should always have a choice as to how we manage our own health and I perfectly understand those that want the vaccines and those that don't want them.   Why on earth can't we all respect each other's decisions and just get on with life?

 

[d9704011]

2 minutes ago, Colin117 said:

I just can't understand why there is this relentless push to get everyone vaccinated at all costs and why the MSM is now embarking on a horrible propaganda campaign to try and demonise those not taking the vaccines.  It's as if there is some ulterior motive behind it all.

Have you forgotten about the 587,000 CV-19 deaths in the United States to date with 600+ per day still ongoing?

 

Get a vaccine!

[Colin117]

Not sure what your comment has to do with the science or virology and the immune system.

 

A percentage of people will always be more susceptible to any given virus be it Covid or Flu or something else.   You realise there are 332 million people in the USA right?  And you presumably realise that many of those deaths you refer to weren't directly caused by Covid.

 

I prefer to base my health decisions on science and fact rather than peer pressure, blackmailing or emotional coercion.   Those that have had Covid are safe people imo.  They've helped herd immunity levels.  As I said I don't see any scientific reason at all for them to be vaccinated.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Colin117

[ontheweb]

3 minutes ago, Colin117 said:

Not sure what your comment has to do with the science of virology and the immune system.

 

A percentage of people will always be more susceptible to any given virus be it Covid or Flu or something else.   You realise there are 332 million people in the USA right?  And you presumably realise that many of those deaths you refer to weren't directly caused by Covid.

 

I prefer to base my health decisions on science and fact rather than peer pressure, blackmailing or emotional coercion.   Those that have had Covid are safe people imo.  They've helped herd immunity levels.  As I said I don't see any scientific reason at all for them to be vaccinated.

Do you have any peer reviewed science papers you can cite that say natural immunity lasts? Or that it would apply to variants?

 

And the 95% refers to efficacy against getting seriously ill, not 5% are not endowed any immunity.

[ldubs]

5 minutes ago, Colin117 said:

Not sure what your comment has to do with the science of virology and the immune system.

 

A percentage of people will always be more susceptible to any given virus be it Covid or Flu or something else.   You realise there are 332 million people in the USA right?  And you presumably realise that many of those deaths you refer to weren't directly caused by Covid.

 

I prefer to base my health decisions on science and fact rather than peer pressure, blackmailing or emotional coercion.   Those that have had Covid are safe people imo.  They've helped herd immunity levels.  As I said I don't see any scientific reason at all for them to be vaccinated.

 

You say you base decisions on science and fact, yet use opinion that people who have had COVID are safe.  Why not go by what the medical professionals say instead of opinion.  Or, at least give the basis for your scientific findings that folks who have had COVID should not be vaccinated.   

[ldubs]

4 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Do you have any peer reviewed science papers you can cite that say natural immunity lasts? Or that it would apply to variants?

 

And the 95% refers to efficacy against getting seriously ill, not 5% are not endowed any immunity.

 

I love the "facts" being promoted by all these folks who don't want to follow what our public health professionals recommend.   

[Colin117]

5 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Do you have any peer reviewed science papers you can cite that say natural immunity lasts? Or that it would apply to variants?

 

And the 95% refers to efficacy against getting seriously ill, not 5% are not endowed any immunity.

 

There are loads of such scientific papers and studies that have shown natural immunity lasts but I'm not here to do your donkey work for you.  I've done my research and read countless studies on the issue and satisfied myself that immunity from having Covid is lasting.

 

The 95% figure is moot because people ARE still getting symptomatic Covid despite being fully vaccinated and people ARE dying of Covid despite being fully vaccinated.

 

Fully-vaccinated Flossmoor man, 75, dies from virus a month after 2nd vaccine dose

https://abc7chicago.com/health/flossmoor-man-75-dies-from-covid-a-month-after-2nd-vaccine-dose/10558121/

 

"While most cases are mild or asymptomatic, officials say at least 97 fully-vaccinated people have been hospitalized and 32 have died in Illinois"

Delhi surgeon who got second Covid vaccine in March dies of virus

https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/delhi-surgeon-who-got-second-covid-vaccine-in-march-dies-of-virus-7307387/

https://www.latintimes.com/indian-doctor-who-received-second-shot-covid-vaccine-march-dies-470655

[ldubs]

On 5/19/2021 at 12:23 AM, wowzz said:

Sorry, but if that is how you interpreted my position, I did not make myself clear. 

Vaccinations will indeed end the pandemic, and that is clearly evident from the UK figures.

However, there are geographic hotspots in the UK, where CV levels remain high, and these areas correspond to low uptake of vaccines.    

 

I had the same thought. I don't think he was really referring to you at all.   

[wowzz]

24 minutes ago, Colin117 said:

Those that have had Covid are safe people imo. 

Unfortunately your humble opinion is wrong.

[wowzz]

12 minutes ago, Colin117 said:

There are loads of such scientific papers and studies that have shown natural immunity lasts but I'm not here to do your donkey work for you. 

No there aren't. 

Sorry, we're getting into a playground argument here, but there are not "loads" of studies out there. 

[Colin117]

2 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Unfortunately your humble opinion is wrong.

You are welcome to your opinion.

 

I deem the people who have had Covid far safer than those who have merely been vaccinated.

[Colin117]

Just now, wowzz said:

No there aren't. 

Sorry, we're getting into a playground argument here, but there are not "loads" of studies out there. 

Again you're welcome to your view.

 

There ARE lots of studies, simple as.