Natural immunity and no vaccine shot

[navybankerteacher]

17 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

…

 

And here is something for you to ponder.  Since we now know that fully vaccinated folks do not generally get COVID and do not spread COVID...why do some places demand that fully vaccinated folks wear masks?

 

Hank

Because about only half the population is vaccinated and the unvaccinated people are not identifiable (and are quite likely to feel that they do not need masks any more than they need vaccination) the only way to really benefit from the contagion limitation of masks is to require everyone to wear them.  
 

At this point, masks are being required in less and less venues - so we will simply have to wait and see if the recent sharp decline in cases (obviously the result of vaccination) continues.

 

There remains the possibility of a further surge in cases if vaccination stalls below the 65% (or so) level and mask wearing is given up.  A hundred and fifteen million unvaccinated Americans taking no precautions provides a fair chance for such resurgence.

Edited May 27, 2021 by navybankerteacher

[Hlitner]

27 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Because about only half the population is vaccinated and the unvaccinated people are not identifiable (and are quite likely to feel that they do not need masks any more than they need vaccination) the only way to really benefit from the contagion limitation of masks is to require everyone to wear them.  
 

At this point, masks are being required in less and less venues - so we will simply have to wait and see if the recent sharp decline in cases (obviously the result of vaccination) continues.

 

There remains the possibility of a further surge in cases if vaccination stalls below the 65% (or so) level and mask wearing is given up.  A hundred and fifteen million unvaccinated Americans taking no precautions provides a fair chance for such resurgence.

We could have some fun with a philosophical discussion.  So assume that 20% of the population are not safe drivers so the answer is to just ban driving?  Or since 40% of Americans are obese we should ban any fattening food?  or since only about half our population gets flu shots we would require everyone to wear masks 6 months every year?  Since we have alcoholics lets ban all alcohol (I think we tried that once).  Since some folks are reckless drivers lets just ban all driving..

 

There will not be another meaningful surge in the USA this year unless and until the immunity afforded by vaccines and natural immunity wears off and folks do not get necessary booster shots.  Your math does not consider the 20-30% of our population that have natural immunity (something also ignored by some CDC experts).   Will unvaccinated folks still get sick?  Yep. And shame on them.  But having fully vaccinated folks wear a mask will not help any of them.  In our society we do not generally punish the masses because of the deeds of the few.  As to taking away mask mandates, that was done in Texas on March 2 and you can look the impact on their COVID statistics.

 

Hank

[ilikeanswers]

9 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

Going back to the title of the thread, OOOPS:

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2021-05/elf-ciw052421.php

 

I think you need to read your articles more thoroughly. This one is completely deceptive. The results could easily be from increased PPE and or changes in protocols that reduced contact between infected patients and staff. It is drawing correlation rather than causation. 

 

9 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/good-news-mild-covid-19-induces-lasting-antibody-protection/

 

There is a big BUT in the second last paragraph😂. Besides you would have to be a seriously dedicated anti vaxer cruiser to submit to a bone marrow extraction to test your immunity😜

[broberts]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Yes, we hear this everyday.  When folks do not know how to defend their position they simply find a way to stop the discussion.  If you are convinced that mask wearing (even if it is a knitted mask that one can see through) ameliorates spread please cite the study(s) that support your belief.  Personally I do believe that a respirator mask such as N95 or KN95 that is properly fitted and worn does help.  But much of the other garbage that is used by most folks for masking and not properly fitted (if it is not air tight it is not too helpful) is of little help in preventing COVID.  Viruses are very tiny and will pass through most masks like a knife through butter.  Why do you think there has been an effort to convert many air filtration systems to high quality HEPA filters?  Do you think that lesser filters (like basic fabric masks) might not work?

 

And here is something for you to ponder.  Since we now know that fully vaccinated folks do not generally get COVID and do not spread COVID...why do some places demand that fully vaccinated folks wear masks?

 

Hank

 

Had you not been so set on trying to put me down you might have taken the time to follow the quotes before posting. If you can't make that effort it is no surprise that you won't make the effort to read the link I posted in support of my argument. 

[wowzz]

7 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Viruses are very tiny and will pass through most masks like a knife through butter

Thank you for your scientific reply!

Mask wearing, of the type worn by the general public has never been about stopping the passage of aerosol droplets per se, but all about reducing the spread distance of said droplets, as an extra precaution on top of social distancing.

[evandbob]

Quote: 

The virus attaches to water droplets or aerosols (i.e. really small droplets) that are generated by breathing, talking, coughing, etc. These consist of water, mucus protein and other biological material and are all larger than 1 micron.

“Breathing and talking generate particles around 1 micron in size, which will be collected by N95 respirator filters with very high efficiency,” said Lisa Brosseau, a retired professor of environmental and occupational health sciences who spent her career researching respiratory protection.

 

Health care precautions for COVID-19 are built around stopping the droplets, since “there’s not a lot of evidence for aerosol spread of COVID-19,” said Patrick Remington, a former CDC epidemiologist and director of the Preventive Medicine Residency Program at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

Fact check: What's true and what's false about coronavirus?

Size matters, but not how you think

But that’s not the only logical flaw in this claim.

The N95 filter indeed is physically around the 0.3 micron size. But that doesn’t mean it can only stop particles larger than that. The masks are actually best for particles either larger or smaller than that 0.3 micron threshold.

 

“N95 have the worst filtration efficiency for particles around 0.3,” Marr said. “If you’re smaller than that those are actually collected even better. It’s counterintuitive because masks do not work like sieving out larger particles. It’s not like pasta in a colander, and small ones don’t get through.”

N95 masks actually have that name because they are 95% efficient at stopping particles in their least efficient particle size range — in this case those around 0.3 microns.

 

Why do they work better for smaller ones? There are a number of factors at play, but here are two main ones noted by experts:

The first is something called “Brownian motion,” the name given to a physical phenomenon in which particles smaller than 0.3 microns move in an erratic, zig-zagging kind of motion. This motion greatly increases the chance they will be snared by the mask fibers.

Fact check: COVID-19 can cause worse lung damage than smokingFact check: COVID-19 vaccine has been nearly 20 years in the makingFact check: Not likely that COVID-19 vaccine was cause of Hank Aaron's deathFact check: What's true about COVID-19, its vaccine, face masks and seasonal flu?

Secondly, the N95 mask itself uses electrostatic absorption, meaning particles are drawn to the fiber and trapped, instead of just passing through.

“Although these particles are smaller than the pores, they can be pulled over by the charged fibers and get stuck,” said Professor Jiaxing Huang, a materials scientist at Northwestern University working to develop a new type of medical face mask. “When the charges are dissipated during usage or storage, the capability of stopping virus-sized particles diminishes. This is the main reason of not recommending the reuse of N95 masks.”

Our ruling: False

We rate this claim FALSE because it is not supported by our research. The COVID-19 virus itself is indeed smaller than the N95 filter size, but the virus always travels attached to larger particles that are consistently snared by the filter. And even if the particles were smaller than the N95 filter size, the erratic motion of particles that size and the electrostatic attraction generated by the mask means they would be consistently caught as well.

Our fact-check sources:

• Interview with Patrick Remington, former CDC epidemiologist and director of the Preventive Medicine Residency Program at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, June 9, 2020
• Interview with Linsey Marr, professor of civil and environmental engineering at Virginia Tech, June 9, 2020
• Email exchange with Lisa Brosseau, retired professor of environmental and occupational health sciences, June 9, 2020
• Email exchange with Jiaxing Huang, materials scientist at Northwestern University, June 9, 2020
• Email exchange with Bill Hanage, associate professor of epidemiology at Harvard University’s School of Public Health, June 9, 2020
• Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, COMMENTARY: Masks-for-all for COVID-19 not based on sound data, April 1, 2020
• Email exchange with Nancy Leung, post-doctoral researcher in infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Hong Kong, June 9, 2020
• Email exchange with Yang Wang, assistant professor of civil, architectural and environmental engineering at the Missouri University of Science and Technology, June 9, 2020

Contact Eric Litke at (414) 225-5061 or elitke@jrn.com. Follow him on Twitter at @ericlitke.

Thank you for supporting our journalism. You can subscribe to our print edition, ad-free app or electronic newspaper replica here.

Our fact check work is supported in part by a grant from Facebook.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hlitner]

3 hours ago, wowzz said:

Thank you for your scientific reply!

Mask wearing, of the type worn by the general public has never been about stopping the passage of aerosol droplets per se, but all about reducing the spread distance of said droplets, as an extra precaution on top of social distancing.

Since we know that the fully vaccinated are not a risk for spreading COVID, you have just made the case that nobody who has been fully vaccinated needs to wear a mask....anywhere!

 

Hank

[wowzz]

26 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Since we know that the fully vaccinated are not a risk for spreading COVID

I was actually talking about the need to wear masks , in pre-vaccine days, and the fact that whilst not completely stopping the spread of droplets,  the spread range was dramatically curtailed by mask wearing.  

With regards to the current situation, the ability of those infected to pass on Covid is still not clear cut.

https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/spread-covid-after-vaccine

Certainly the UK is proceeding cautiously at present, with mask wearing still mandatory in many places, and this is likely to continue for some time, especially with the advent of the more transmissible Indian variant.  Should this variant makes its way to the US, it may be that mask wearing may once again be required there. 

[Joebucks]

3 hours ago, evandbob said:

Our ruling: False

We rate this claim FALSE because it is not supported by our research. The COVID-19 virus itself is indeed smaller than the N95 filter size, but the virus always travels attached to larger particles that are consistently snared by the filter. And even if the particles were smaller than the N95 filter size, the erratic motion of particles that size and the electrostatic attraction generated by the mask means they would be consistently caught as well.

 

 

This is untrue. These supporting articles are from last year. Recent guidance says otherwise. 

[ilikeanswers]

 

 

[Toofarfromthesea]

OOOPS #2

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.18.21257385v1

It is amazing how so many common sense positions that were based on decades of experience, which were mocked as not following the science turn out to be correct after all.  Surface transmission, masks, natural immunity being prime among them.

[jwattle]

On 5/26/2021 at 6:19 AM, Joebucks said:

 

 

 

The victim politics of "other people need to change" is a never-ending, bottomless pit, of victim dependence. It will never, ever, ever, ever fix any of your problems. It's effective politics. There are an abundance of options to protect yourself. Research what they are and what works best for you an your family. There is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all approach on almost everything in life. We often gravitate that way because it is easy, convenient, or someone told us. It's amazing how much we virtue signal that we need to "protect others" when we have a vaccine that delivers this protection. Like really think about that.

 

 

I work all day around people who are very high risk and don't tend to mask up. I also have a grandson who is 1 1/2 years old. That is who I protect when I wear a mask at work even though I am fully vaccinated. That isn't virtue signaling; that is an extra dose of protection. When your high horse bucks you off or your soap box breaks, mayhaps you'll realize that there are other reasons and that it's not grandiose "virtue signaling". JHC!

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, jwattle said:

I work all day around people who are very high risk and don't tend to mask up. I also have a grandson who is 1 1/2 years old. That is who I protect when I wear a mask at work even though I am fully vaccinated. That isn't virtue signaling; that is an extra dose of protection. When your high horse bucks you off or your soap box breaks, mayhaps you'll realize that there are other reasons and that it's not grandiose "virtue signaling". JHC!

There are some people who seem to get offended by the notion that simple decent citizenship might be a motivation -- with no posturing involved

[BruceMuzz]

Japan is a very good example of why masks are important to public health. Japan has a very high density population. Social distancing is nearly impossible in many parts of the country. The Japanese have been wearing masks religiously - not just during the pandemic, but for years. Every time a Japanese person gets even a slight cough, the mask goes on and stays on. It is part of the Japanese culture; wearing a mask to demonstrate a personal dedication to keeping those around them healthy.

 

Many studies have shown this is the primary reason there are so few Flu outbreaks in Japan. Now during the pandemic, everyone, but everyone is wearing masks - properly - all the time.

The vaccine program in Japan is only just starting, so 98% of the population is not protected. Yet, the overall infection and death rates for COVID in Japan have been - and continue to be - lower than most individual US States, where the population is far lower, far less dense, and many people have been vaccinated.

 

Taiwan is experiencing similar positive results - most likely for the same reasons.

 

Instead of looking at countries where things are not going so well and congratulating yourselves on looking better than them, it might be helpful to look at countries with encouraging results and then try to adopt some of the practices that seem to be helping.

[2wheelin]

4 hours ago, jwattle said:

I work all day around people who are very high risk and don't tend to mask up. I also have a grandson who is 1 1/2 years old. That is who I protect when I wear a mask at work even though I am fully vaccinated. That isn't virtue signaling; that is an extra dose of protection. When your high horse bucks you off or your soap box breaks, mayhaps you'll realize that there are other reasons and that it's not grandiose "virtue signaling". JHC!

It’s that sort of ridiculous thinking that makes this whole thing laughable. You are vaccinated so infinitesimal chance of having Covid in your system. Then you wear a mask at work so unless your grandson comes to work with you, you are wasting your efforts. You may feel better but no one is more protected by your wearing a mask.

[Joebucks]

13 hours ago, jwattle said:

I work all day around people who are very high risk and don't tend to mask up. I also have a grandson who is 1 1/2 years old. That is who I protect when I wear a mask at work even though I am fully vaccinated. That isn't virtue signaling; that is an extra dose of protection. When your high horse bucks you off or your soap box breaks, mayhaps you'll realize that there are other reasons and that it's not grandiose "virtue signaling". JHC!

 

As of May 12, of the 568,000 COVID deaths, 287 were children aged 0-17, and god forbid we try to understand the circumstances of those deaths. While you have positive intentions as a loving grandparent, it's a baseless, emotional, fear, even more so when you are vaccinated. Funny that we see so much of that from the side of science. If we really want to care for our youth, there are far more important concerns like getting them back to school and limiting all of the social media influences out there, to name a few. However, those concerns fall on deaf ears.

 

For the matter of those who are at-risk and still disregard their health. That argument has more merit. Do I want them to die? No one does. However, many of them are at risk-risk because...... of the choices that put them there in the first place. Smoking, obesity, diabetes, and they continue to not care. You can think it's heartless, but it's actually quite illogical to think your choices are their lifeline. The same crowd at risk of COVID death is the same crowd who dies in much larger numbers of heart disease, diabetes, etc. We all feel our supreme sense of morality wearing a cloth on our face to do our part to prevent the spread of an aerosol-based virus to the people who don't care about their own health. This is what health and responsibility look like in 2021.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Joebucks

[broberts]

3 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

As of May 12, of the 568,000 COVID deaths, 287 were children aged 0-17, and god forbid we try to understand the circumstances of those deaths. While you have positive intentions as a loving grandparent, it's a baseless, emotional, fear, even more so when you are vaccinated. Funny that we see so much of that from the side of science. If we really want to care for our youth, there are far more important concerns like getting them back to school and limiting all of the social media influences out there, to name a few. However, those concerns fall on deaf ears.

 

For the matter of those who are at-risk and still disregard their health. That argument has more merit. Do I want them to die? No one does. However, many of them are at risk-risk because...... of the choices that put them there in the first place. Smoking, obesity, diabetes, and they continue to not care. You can think it's heartless, but it's actually quite illogical to think your choices are their lifeline. The same crowd at risk of COVID death is the same crowd who dies in much larger numbers of heart disease, diabetes, etc. We all feel our supreme sense of morality wearing a cloth on our face to do our part to prevent the spread of an aerosol-based virus to the people who don't care about their own health. This is what health and responsibility look like in 2021.

 

Seems to ignore the fact that as long as there are significant numbers of unvaccinated within our population the risk of a breakthrough variant increases.

 

Thinking only in terms of individuals is shortsighted. 

[jwattle]

I'm reducing my chances of inhaling it and becoming a breakthrough case. 

If I do become an asymptomatic breakthrough case, I reduce the aerosol that I exhale.

As for the 287 children who perished, try consoling their families with your rhetoric.

 

Also, I actually do understand quite about, having been  in our Emergency Operations Center for 8 months, as Logistics Chief, working side by side with our entire team.

 

Save your backhanded arguments for someone that you might actually sway, who hasn't fought in the trenches of this unholy war please. Thank you.

[slidergirl]

I'm getting sick and tired of people just talking about deaths as if it was a binary choice with COVID.  STOP IT!!!   Children also get Long COVID.  It's not just a little thing, either.  

[iancal]

I do not think that it matters.  If we want to travel we will have to conform to the entry requirements of those countries we wish to visit, those carriers we wish to select, or certain hotels or AI's.

 

Those countries and vendors do not care what I may think.   No vaccination, no entry.  End of.  No point in debating the issue.  Their country, their business......their rules.

 

  How difficult is this to understand?  If you disagree then simply stay home.

[navybankerteacher]

12 hours ago, broberts said:

 

Seems to ignore the fact that as long as there are significant numbers of unvaccinated within our population the risk of a breakthrough variant increases.

 

Thinking only in terms of individuals is shortsighted. 

It is a waste of time to pursue this discussion with this individual.

[evandbob]

I recall reading a few complaints about cruisers not wanting to wear snorkel vests when it was mandated by excursion operators - a tiny grumble, but most went along with wearing the vests without any objection at all. In fact, there were way more who overinflated the blow up type of vest than those that refused.

 

Why don't folk look at masks as protective devices similar to the mandated life vests?

[Joebucks]

50 minutes ago, 2wheelin said:

Thank you. I don’t know what we would do without you to tell us who to respond to and who not to respond to. I always wonder if I should post a comment but you certainly clear that up. 😂 it’s so refreshing to have someone take the time to censor the material for us so we know how we are supposed to think. This free expression and thinking for oneself is so tedious.

 

We just always circle back to "but the children!" "but a death is one too many!" While not incorrect statements in themselves, fail to take on any thinking. To the point that you are not allowed to even mention any data unless it is accompanied by an emotional plea. The emotional cause is a favorite political tactic for its effectiveness. This is far from the only hot topic it is applied to. If I said far more damage was done to children in all of the measures we took vs the 287 "deaths", I basically killed those children myself. 

 

Those who questioned some of the science were attacked as they usually are. Once the science was found to be false, we live under the umbrella that that narrative was always correct, even when it wasn't. Some see no fault in this.

 

I was at the mall yesterday. For which we know now, crowded indoor areas with poor air circulation are hotspots for aerosol covid particles. About half were masked (some improperly) about half weren't masked. I actually thought about this discussion while I sat down watching people walk around. I thought about all of those without the mask should be scolded and lectured on decency, as told by NavyBanker. I thought that all people with the mask were scholars, preventing the spread because I saw a video of a sneeze. Then I also remembered that the virus was in the air regardless.

 

The only way to be a responsible human from here on out with this current trajectory, is to take booster shots for the rest of your life. Maybe 40-50 more for me, depending on how long I live? Otherwise you are a variant farm that kills grandmas and children. Nevermind that the vaccine apparently covers the variants, and the boosters also keep that in check. In this case, like many others, the double-standard will slide. Another absolutely terrible thing I could do is learn a lesson here that I need to take good care of my health. Even worse if I actually do it. Some people would legitimately rather you be a victim. They'll never actually admit it, but if I was able to say I ate well, exercised, and watched my weight, they would loathe that. They really would. That is the biggest problem with all of it. Personal responsibility is the worst thing you can do. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Joebucks

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, 2wheelin said:

Thank you. I don’t know what we would do without you to tell us who to respond to and who not to respond to. I always wonder if I should post a comment but you certainly clear that up. 😂 it’s so refreshing to have someone take the time to censor the material for us so we know how we are supposed to think. This free expression and thinking for oneself is so tedious.

Yes, and it is a case of do as I say, not as I do as he continues to argue with the very people he tells everyone else are not worth responding to.

[Joebucks]

21 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Yes, and it is a case of do as I say, not as I do as he continues to argue with the very people he tells everyone else are not worth responding to.

 

I know there are a lot of people who feel the same way, but don't want to argue with that side. You never get anywhere, and are just repeatedly, passive-aggressively, called a bad person.

 

This is my last comment on this thread for now. I was at a wedding yesterday. Hundreds of people and not a mask in sight. People getting married want to remember the memories of that day, not masks. I've yet to see any celebration where people want to enjoy that time masked up. What do I do? Do I rain my moral superiority over everyone? Do I talk bad about all of the people there? Do I wear a mask to "do my part?" Or do I accept the real world? I know for a fact that there are people there who have had health issues. In fact, even people very important to me. Does my moral shield protect them? I also know that most, if not all of them elected to get the vaccine to protect themselves. I think we all know well enough not to cough and sneeze in other people's faces so maybe we aren't complete heathens? Probably not. It was obviously just a bunch of uneducated, impolite, variant farms, putting freedoms before public health.