Update on P&O Insurance Issues

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, howmuch! said:

If I am reading this correctly. the section below, taken from the Spanish Protocol - Health Measures for restarting Cruises appears to confirm, that all cruise lines should provide full care costs including repatriation, via an insurance policy purchased by the cruise company, not the passenger - 

 

HEALTH CARE COVERAGE GUARANTEE

 

In case of an event on board, all the derived costs must be covered by the shipping company by subscribing an insurance policy that includes agreements with health centers and other established establishments in which to accommodate the people who need it.

 

Before the start of the cruise, operators should ensure that this requirement can be met in all the Spanish ports on the itinerary. At least:

1. Agreements with healthcare facilities and other establishments on land, including:

a. All the needs of patients diagnosed with COVID-19, as well as their adequate treatment and follow-up: • In health centers (both conventional health care facilities and intensive care with mechanical ventilation if necessary). • In establishments (hotel rooms or apartments for single / double use with their own bathroom on a full board basis).

b. The quarantine of contacts in suitable arranged facilities on a full board basis, including maintenance, follow-up and medical assistance if necessary.

The healthcare facilities and accommodation arranged for health care and isolation of cases, as well as for the quarantine of close contacts, must be adequate for this purpose, having planned a sufficient number depending on the number of people on board.

2. Carrying out confirmatory tests on the cases and contacts that are necessary.

3. All possible transfers that may occur, including those made from the ship to the health care center or to the agreed establishment, from the accommodation or hospital to the ship, from the ship to the airport and air transfers.

4. The repatriation of patients / corpses, as well as any necessary crew changes.

 

And this is exactly why I do not see why the cruise lines cannot just admit this instead of saying they are not leaving people out of pocket as if they are Santa Claus.  If they have a legal obligation why not admit it.  There are lots of other things in this document that are not happening such as daily temperature checks. Each cruise line is picking and choosing how to behave.  The fact is the stories are out there and people know what's happening.  I've given up on searching for stories now, I'm just accepting there are lots of people and virtually every cruise has people infected.  We are all assuming it's going away soon, there's no guarantees with variants possible at any point.

 

The worry affects different people different ways. I know people who are cruising for the first time who would not in any way be able to cope with this if it happened either mentally or financially. Having enjoyed a staycation they're dipping their toe in the water of their first international cruise.

 

It's not just the cost it's not being aware of the risk.  There's no firm commitment that these ex gratia payments are instant the moment the insurer says no. We assume when they say no one's out of pocket the offloaded passengers do not have to magic up funds they may not have but actually no one knows. Therein lies the problem.

 

I'm now facing a cruise with two more of my group worrying after they've seen in recent days that it could be more than 10 days quarantine for a positive test, the other partner being worried if she was either negative at the start or positive then negative before her partner recovers.  Their son is getting married four weeks after we set sail after three cancellations of his wedding.  It's easy to say don't go but they've paid out three months in advance as required under the terms of their booking.  They booked believing quarantine would be onboard now read in P&O's update they may get put off. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Megabear2

[MX-Drew]

Just one small point Megabear, Marella do carry out daily temperature checks.

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, MX-Drew said:

Just one small point Megabear, Marella do carry out daily temperature checks.

They do indeed.  I am not however in correspondence with them or MSC because as far as I know they do not recommend Holiday Extras. Actually you reminding me about Marella checks proves that the lines are not following the documents under discussion as it clearly states in those documents regular temperature checks are required.  Marella, I believe and do correct me if I'm wrong, seem to have more offloaded people than other UK based lines due to their fly cruises to canaries and assumedly more checks and tests.

 

Meantime I've just had this from Holiday Extras:

 

Dear xxxxxx

 

Matthew has asked me to follow up with you to make sure the response you have received from the team was satisfactory and answered your email in full.  Please don't hesitate to get in touch if there is anything else we can do.

 

Kind regards, 

 

I think I can take it that they are not progressing anything at this stage!

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Megabear2

[terrierjohn]

2 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

And this is exactly why I do not see why the cruise lines cannot just admit this instead of saying they are not leaving people out of pocket as if they are Santa Claus.  If they have a legal obligation why not admit it.  There are lots of other things in this document that are not happening such as daily temperature checks. Each cruise line is picking and choosing how to behave.  The fact is the stories are out there and people know what's happening.  I've given up on searching for stories now, I'm just accepting there are lots of people and virtually every cruise has people infected.  We are all assuming it's going away soon, there's no guarantees with variants possible at any point.

 

The worry affects different people different ways. I know people who are cruising for the first time who would not in any way be able to cope with this if it happened either mentally or financially. Having enjoyed a staycation they're dipping their toe in the water of their first international cruise.

 

It's not just the cost it's not being aware of the risk.  There's no firm commitment that these ex gratia payments are instant the moment the insurer says no. We assume when they say no one's out of pocket the offloaded passengers do not have to magic up funds they may not have but actually no one knows. Therein lies the problem.

 

I'm now facing a cruise with two more of my group worrying after they've seen in recent days that it could be more than 10 days quarantine for a positive test, the other partner being worried if she was either negative at the start or positive then negative before her partner recovers.  Their son is getting married four weeks after we set sail after three cancellations of his wedding.  It's easy to say don't go but they've paid out three months in advance as required under the terms of their booking.  They booked believing quarantine would be onboard now read in P&O's update they may get put off. 

I assume the cruise lines insurance company would not want them to put in writing anything that might undermine them in their negotiations as to who pays, them or the passengers insurance company. This might then invalidate the cruise lines insurance liability, leaving the cruise lines to pick up the cost.

This is a real catch 22 situation which I doubt is likely to be resolved to give cruise passengers the cast iron guarantees that you, and we, would like. It may be that we have to accept the woolly verbal assurance that the cruise lines, or at least P&O, are giving us at present.

[Megabear2]

1 minute ago, terrierjohn said:

I assume the cruise lines insurance company would not want them to put in writing anything that might undermine them in their negotiations as to who pays, them or the passengers insurance company. This might then invalidate the cruise lines insurance liability, leaving the cruise lines to pick up the cost.

This is a real catch 22 situation which I doubt is likely to be resolved to give cruise passengers the cast iron guarantees that you, and we, would like. It may be that we have to accept the woolly verbal assurance that the cruise lines, or at least P&O, are giving us at present.

We go round in circles. We have no verbal assurance. What we have is Molecrochip's message on here and my "unofficial " email.  We are therefore assuming that all is well, we don’t actually know and we are a tiny number of individuals out of many thousands who could be affected by something they know nothing about.

 

I stated months ago I had sympathy with the cruise lines about their position however now that the insurers are openly stating they aren't liable to pay its a whole new game.  Regardless of what their insurers may or may not say the policy that the British Chamber of Shipping and the Spanish/EU sail protocols state is required to operate would surely have been bought by the cruise lines with the risk accepted and presumably was accepted by both parties with the knowledge there was such a risk.

 

A policy of insurance of any kind acknowledges at point of sale a risk being underwritten and accepted.  The problem may well be as stated previously that the cruise lines did not do their due diligence with Holiday Extras et al but that is  not the fault of the person buying that policy of insurance or even Holiday Extras. At the end of the day these individuals would not know of or care about the existence of any other insurance that the cruise line might be required to purchase.

 

[seapals2]

Haven’t read all the posts but going back to when this was first raised we checked with our insurers,  M&S premium club insurance underwritten by Aviva.  ( quite a few other banks are underwritten by this company too). They said simply we were insured as a couple.  If one of us was ill .. Covid or otherwise the spouse was covered for costs incurred too.  If one of you were taken ill before travel it’s always been the case that both are covered for cancellation costs.  Don’t see this as being any different.  If one of us was taken to hospital whilst on holiday travel and accommodation is covered.  If we were travelling with grandchildren under 18 they would be covered too. 

[Megabear2]

19 minutes ago, seapals2 said:

Haven’t read all the posts but going back to when this was first raised we checked with our insurers,  M&S premium club insurance underwritten by Aviva.  ( quite a few other banks are underwritten by this company too). They said simply we were insuredm as a couple.  If one of us was ill .. Covid or otherwise the spouse was covered for costs incurred too.  If one of you were taken ill before travel it’s always been the case that both are covered for cancellation costs.  Don’t see this as being any different.  If one of us was taken to hospital whilst on holiday travel and accommodation is covered.  If we were travelling with grandchildren under 18 they would be covered too. 

Most of the so called package accounts do offer the cover. However these package accounts do not cover anyone over 70 or with complex health conditions - anything like asthma, blood pressure, mental health, cancer etc will rule people out.  These people have to buy so called specialist cover and these companies tend to have one of four or so underwriters and therefore the same restrictions on cover.

 

I have reviewed my M&S research from October and noticed the following in the small print so you may want to double check in light of P&O publishing the risk of quarantine ashore

 

Provided the travel restrictions including FCDO advisories and quarantine requirements were not in place when you booked your trip or purchased your policy (whichever is later) and these restrictions were not in place when you travelled.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Megabear2

[seapals2]

3 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Most of the so called package accounts do offer the cover. However these package accounts do not cover anyone over 70 or with complex health conditions - anything like asthma, blood pressure, mental health, cancer etc will rule people out.  These people have to buy so called specialist cover and these companies tend to have one of four or so underwriters and therefore the same restrictions on cover.

 

we are over 70 but covered to 80 .   I know this is unusual these days .. we have had the same M&S premium cover for a long time from when it first came out.  
I guess if either of us has serious health issues then we would no longer expect to receive the same cover and this will limit our travel.  However it is strange that the issues have come about since Covid when it’s always been the case that we travel as a couple and are insured against illness or accident to one or either of us.  
Of the two instances in the past when we have had to claim for cancellation neither of us was ill. Sadly it was due to a terminal cancer diagnosis of parent and a sister.  We have always felt fully covered against unforeseen circumstances.  
Whilst it’s possible to need quarantine it’s not expected and as such it’s an unforeseen event.  

[Megabear2]

8 minutes ago, seapals2 said:

 

we are over 70 but covered to 80 .   I know this is unusual these days .. we have had the same M&S premium cover for a long time from when it first came out.  
I guess if either of us has serious health issues then we would no longer expect to receive the same cover and this will limit our travel.  However it is strange that the issues have come about since Covid when it’s always been the case that we travel as a couple and are insured against illness or accident to one or either of us.  
Of the two instances in the past when we have had to claim for cancellation neither of us was ill. Sadly it was due to a terminal cancer diagnosis of parent and a sister.  We have always felt fully covered against unforeseen circumstances.  
Whilst it’s possible to need quarantine it’s not expected and as such it’s an unforeseen event.  

You are very lucky. Hang on to your policy if it covers Covid in the same way as "normal" medical events.

 

I meant that P&O have warned of a risk of quarantine not that you knew you were going to need it, which hopefully aren't!

Edited February 1, 2022 by Megabear2

[seapals2]

Mostly the passengers, from what I’ve been reading, that have gone into isolation/quarantine have had no serious symptoms.  Often saying no symptoms at all so in a way a different situation to what has happened in the past when passengers have been taken ill and often needed hospital care.  You get the feeling now that ships are not actively doing random screening with temperature checks .. the last thing they want is to find more healthy people to test positive and have to find more isolation cabins.  Cruise lines will want to return to full capacity as quickly as possible and I guess providing no further variants come along we will return to people only reporting to medical centres if they feel really unwell for whatever reason.   We will get by with usual measures of paracetamol and rest for flu like symptoms.  Insurers have never had to pay for anyone getting a bad cold or cough in the past let alone lost cruise days with no symptoms at all.  It’s become a very strange world.  
 

[ann141]

1 hour ago, seapals2 said:

Haven’t read all the posts but going back to when this was first raised we checked with our insurers,  M&S premium club insurance underwritten by Aviva.  ( quite a few other banks are underwritten by this company too). They said simply we were insured as a couple.  If one of us was ill .. Covid or otherwise the spouse was covered for costs incurred too.  If one of you were taken ill before travel it’s always been the case that both are covered for cancellation costs.  Don’t see this as being any different.  If one of us was taken to hospital whilst on holiday travel and accommodation is covered.  If we were travelling with grandchildren under 18 they would be covered too. 

We have a similar bank insurance underwritten by Aviva and they have also confirmed that as it is a joint account and policy then we would both be covered if one of us had to quarantine abroad as a result of being offloaded from the ship.

[howmuch!]

9 hours ago, seapals2 said:

Mostly the passengers, from what I’ve been reading, that have gone into isolation/quarantine have had no serious symptoms.  Often saying no symptoms at all so in a way a different situation to what has happened in the past when passengers have been taken ill and often needed hospital care.

I think this is the crux of the matter for Insurance cover - which part of the policy is appropriate when medical intervention may not be required, even for the person testing posative, when isolation costs can be a few thousand pounds.

 

After a number of questions posed by myself to the underwriters, LV have responded with - 

 

There is no specific provision for Quarantine Hotel costs under our policies.

 

There are areas of the policy - Curtailment and Cancellation - that may provide some re-imbursement of financial outlay, but this is unlikely to cover all expenses if quarantined as far as I can tell.

[delgirl]

10 hours ago, seapals2 said:

 

we are over 70 but covered to 80 .   I know this is unusual these days .. we have had the same M&S premium cover for a long time from when it first came out.  
I guess if either of us has serious health issues then we would no longer expect to receive the same cover and this will limit our travel.  However it is strange that the issues have come about since Covid when it’s always been the case that we travel as a couple and are insured against illness or accident to one or either of us.  
Of the two instances in the past when we have had to claim for cancellation neither of us was ill. Sadly it was due to a terminal cancer diagnosis of parent and a sister.  We have always felt fully covered against unforeseen circumstances.  
Whilst it’s possible to need quarantine it’s not expected and as such it’s an unforeseen event.  

We have travel insurance with our bank underwritten by aviva. We are also covered until we are 80 years old. Only another 11 yrs to go for me and 15 yrs for hubby🤣

[Megabear2]

Those of us with travel insurance from banks need to be very aware that because we have cover at the moment we may not always have it.  My own bank has changed its policy underwriters for the third time in 10 years last November and although some terms remain the same others have changed for the worse.

[nosapphire]

15 hours ago, seapals2 said:

Haven’t read all the posts but going back to when this was first raised we checked with our insurers,  M&S premium club insurance underwritten by Aviva.  ( quite a few other banks are underwritten by this company too). They said simply we were insured as a couple.  If one of us was ill .. Covid or otherwise the spouse was covered for costs incurred too.  If one of you were taken ill before travel it’s always been the case that both are covered for cancellation costs.  Don’t see this as being any different.  If one of us was taken to hospital whilst on holiday travel and accommodation is covered.  If we were travelling with grandchildren under 18 they would be covered too. 

This is the crucial point - you are covered if you are taken ill.

What happens if you are not ill, in the opinion of the ship's medical team and the local doctor you do not need any medical treatment - but the port authorities decide that you cannot quarantine on board, you must be removed to a hotel for quarantine.

Are you still covered for all extra costs, including return home?

Are you still covered even if the cruise lines include a line in the booking terms about being put ashore at the next suitable port for quarantine?

 

 

[Bazrat]

1 hour ago, nosapphire said:

This is the crucial point - you are covered if you are taken ill.

What happens if you are not ill, in the opinion of the ship's medical team and the local doctor you do not need any medical treatment - but the port authorities decide that you cannot quarantine on board, you must be removed to a hotel for quarantine.

Are you still covered for all extra costs, including return home?

Are you still covered even if the cruise lines include a line in the booking terms about being put ashore at the next suitable port for quarantine?

 

 

Why would the port authority get involved if your quarantined on ship ?

[wowzz]

2 minutes ago, Bazrat said:

Why would the port authority get involved if your quarantined on ship ?

Because current  EU protocols dictate that quarantined passenfers have to be disembarked,  and cannot remain onboard. 

[terrierjohn]

1 minute ago, Bazrat said:

Why would the port authority get involved if your quarantined on ship ?

No idea but the Spanish authorities seem to demand that if you are covid positive you have to quarantine ashore.

[Fionboard]

Maybe money making - like the extra tax on drinks, etc. Or am I being cynical?!!

[wowzz]

48 minutes ago, Fionboard said:

Maybe money making - like the extra tax on drinks, etc. Or am I being cynical?!!

Cynical I think, as it is not just the Spanish. 

[howmuch!]

Presumably it has 2 benefits to the cruise line -

 

1. Less chance of Covid spreading further on board

2. Less chance of being denied entry to ports as infection rates are lower

Edited February 1, 2022 by howmuch!

[terrierjohn]

3 hours ago, howmuch! said:

Presumably it has 2 benefits to the cruise line -

 

1. Less chance of Covid spreading further on board

2. Less chance of being denied entry to ports as infection rates are lower

If the on board quarantine system is effective, why should it bother any port of call how many passengers are there?

[howmuch!]

11 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

If the on board quarantine system is effective, why should it bother any port of call how many passengers are there?

I agree, but its happening to some ships in the Caribbean this season.

[Megabear2]

I think we can agree the quarantine in the Caribbean is being carefully and cleverly managed to the benefit of passengers and cruise lines.  I would certainly be happy to quarantine on QV or my own cruise ship than ashore.

 

The next problem is really the European ports.  As this "sailing mandate" hasn't been adjusted since it started last April it looks as if it's there for the foreseeable.  Land based holidays may be experiencing relaxation of rules but realistically ship based ones will have to have one set of rules for everyone. Practicalities would indicate you can't have 30 or 40 different criteria for the cruise lines to work to, logistically impossible.  The cruise lines deserve a break on that point, but they do need to sort out the insurance position if they have to operate on these terms.

 

There will be no "spare" quarantine ship from March for P&O/Cunard as all ships will be back in action.  Therefore its whatever a port dictates once the ships are back from the Caribbean.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Megabear2

[seapals2]

Think March is the end of the Caribbean season for P&O and Cunard so probably will be no need for Queen Vic.  It was a well thought out strategy as no ship ever exceeded the number of Covid cases and was allowed into ports.  We are sailing on Princess in March /April hoping we manage to avoid quarantine or that the rules are modified by then.